EPTthread: "FUCK PROTOSSS RRREEEEEEE"
Lol.
PROTOSSED, or how we gave up on understanding - Page 8
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Jealous
10253 Posts
thread: "FUCK PROTOSSS RRREEEEEEE" Lol. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
See game 2 of Maru vs. herO on Odessey especially. herO gets up three bases, a 15 worker advantage, then with un-upgraded blink, charge and a prism, proceeds to dismantle Maru who is on two bases with superior tech and upgrades. Yes, you can argue T should have built bunkers/turrets to survive but when you're already a base down and 15 workers should you really be investing in defensive structures? At first it seemed like protoss had builds that could survive anything, and also scout and counter, and ultimately put the protoss in an advantageous situation if no mistakes were made. But now protoss has to guess twice: once in the early game (up to about 4:30-5:00) and then again after terran has shown their early game hand (after 4:30-5:00). You chose a game where herO essentially guessed right or got lucky on both of those occasions and also where he executed his build better (so maybe he deserves to win anyway). He happened to play the early game as greedy as possible while minimizing the damage a 2 widow mine drop could do. He also killed the medivac, which gives his stalkers a chance to walk across the map and gain some info by pressuring terran's front door. Meanwhile I'm not even sure that Maru did his build correctly. He's cutting scv's well before he's saturated which then makes him weaker at a timing that matters. He rushed to 5rax with reactor factory and reactor starport but he can't afford to use every building. herO does his build well. And then how does herO "dismantle" Maru? Nothing that was in herO's control. He gets lucky that a group of MMM had left just before his moment of attack. With those units out of position and with Maru's bad splits, terran can't defend. Watch the second time the prism comes in, how deep it goes in and how long it stays there exposed, long enough to do a warp-in. Just a small group of marines would deny that and have a chance of killing it if they were in the correct position. Of course, he was probably already losing because 12 SCV's had died at his natural, which was easy because those MMM had just left. Why does Maru send out the MMM? Lack of scouting opportunities leading to rock-paper-scissors scenarios. It's not an issue of balance unless one race can consistently scout while the other can't. This used to seem to be the case in PvT but now terrans do builds that punish protoss who rush to observers. herO can't build as many stalkers, get blink so fast, build as many probes and get a 3rd as fast, if he wants to get an observer in time to scout the terran and choose a counter-build by 5:00-5:30. So herO is already committing to a low-gas, no research no tech surge of basic units before he knows what the terran is doing. And that can be countered by terran. A lot of the PvT's from this IEM qualifier consist of the protoss blind countering the terran at this point in the game. Anyway Maru saw that the stalkers weren't in position to punish MMM harass so he sent the MMM out, but he didn't anticipate a warp prism about to come in with 8gate chargelots behind it. If Maru had been executing a 2 base power build a little better and had not taken this risk, he actually would've had a great fighting chance despite a really poor opening. His +1 MM and mines would have mowed down endless zealot/stalker that have no upgrades and no sentries supporting them. He just needed to not be caught out of position, especially not at the exact moment he did get caught out of position, because that was when herO was most powerful relative to Maru (when the 8gate and charge just finished and the warp prism got across the map). | ||
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Archeon
3261 Posts
Which results in all-ins and turtle into lategame. Which is very asymmetrical and not very interactive. So it isn't really fun. Blizz definitely worked on this, they delayed WG, buffed prism and gateway, nerfed tech introduced mass recall and new harass options, but it's softened up, not gone. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On December 24 2017 04:30 Noonius wrote: there's more salt in this thread than in the Dead Sea, and it's beautiful I love that that salt the game produced because of some "interesting" design decisions is basically what made the game almost irrelevant in todays esport-scene User was warned for this post | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24593 Posts
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AaBbCc
New Zealand110 Posts
On December 24 2017 04:09 NonY wrote: Why does Maru send out the MMM? Lack of scouting opportunities leading to rock-paper-scissors scenarios. It's not an issue of balance unless one race can consistently scout while the other can't. This used to seem to be the case in PvT but now terrans do builds that punish protoss who rush to observers. herO can't build as many stalkers, get blink so fast, build as many probes and get a 3rd as fast, if he wants to get an observer in time to scout the terran and choose a counter-build by 5:00-5:30. So herO is already committing to a low-gas, no research no tech surge of basic units before he knows what the terran is doing. And that can be countered by terran. A lot of the PvT's from this IEM qualifier consist of the protoss blind countering the terran at this point in the game. Anyway Maru saw that the stalkers weren't in position to punish MMM harass so he sent the MMM out, but he didn't anticipate a warp prism about to come in with 8gate chargelots behind it. If Maru had been executing a 2 base power build a little better and had not taken this risk, he actually would've had a great fighting chance despite a really poor opening. His +1 MM and mines would have mowed down endless zealot/stalker that have no upgrades and no sentries supporting them. He just needed to not be caught out of position, especially not at the exact moment he did get caught out of position, because that was when herO was most powerful relative to Maru (when the 8gate and charge just finished and the warp prism got across the map). Thanks very much for taking the time to share your insights. Things will settle as T adapts but the whining will continue. Just letting my Maru fanboydom bias me. Would it be wrong to say that herO's timing attacks are probably the sharpest in the business these days? Makes me harken back and reminisce about MC murdering nerds with those 2 base gateway attacks of his, bouncing in his chair all the while  | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On December 24 2017 17:24 Heartland wrote: Most people just meme, if something becomes a meme in the sc2 community they just regurgitate it endlessly no matter what changes. Protoss OP being one of those things. It's not about the strength, it's about what the strengths are | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On December 24 2017 17:24 Heartland wrote: Most people just meme, if something becomes a meme in the sc2 community they just regurgitate it endlessly no matter what changes. Protoss OP being one of those things. Yes it's just a meme, everything is fine since the patch. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24593 Posts
On December 24 2017 20:44 DieuCure wrote: Yes it's just a meme, everything is fine since the patch. There are also insufferable balance whiners. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On December 24 2017 17:24 Heartland wrote: Most people just meme, if something becomes a meme in the sc2 community they just regurgitate it endlessly no matter what changes. Protoss OP being one of those things. This is your brain on Protoss. Don't do it kids | ||
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zealotstim
United States455 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 25 2017 08:30 zealotstim wrote: Good article. I never really understood the cries of protoss imbalance to be honest, apart from when blink stalkers were so good back in late 2014ish I think. I think it's more boring as a viewer to watch the same builds over and over, and protoss has the most builds. If something should be redesigned, it should be the other two races so they have the build and strategy diversity of protoss. And even back then it was mostly about stupid MSC with Mothership vision(what can go wrong?  ), bad map pool and idiotict time warp(unless I'm confused about years ) | ||
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Hannibaal
41 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7142 Posts
On December 28 2017 01:59 Hannibaal wrote: I just lost a TvT, a proxy reaper, it's in this kind of bullshit when you see clearly that this game is a disaster in terms of design. It is not fun because it is impossible to overcome a situation like this and it is unfair because this can be done by a player with much less skill than you. The macro of SC2 is too easy, the problem is not only Protoss, the three races stink in this game. I'm done with this game, unfortunately there are not many alternatives in the RTS games. How do you lose to proxy reaper without making a big mistake yourself? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 28 2017 02:41 Luolis wrote: How do you lose to proxy reaper without making a big mistake yourself? You blame the game, the enemy, the lags, the balance team, the design team, the weather, the weatherwoman form Mexico and mexican staring frog from southern sri lanka | ||
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beefITek
France54 Posts
Shame | ||
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StarDraKe
France65 Posts
I agree overall with the point the writter is making. I would have liked figures of majors tournaments wins overall to show race power over time and games expansion. Great job! | ||
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