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INnoVation and the Shitty Ravager Build

Forum Index > SC2 General
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pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-12 01:30:01
December 11 2017 23:46 GMT
#1
As I was the one who originally brought up the shitty ravager build in the Community Update thread, and also the one who attributed it to Inno, I thought it best to explain how and why I arrived at the conclusion I did–and why Inno is indeed the “inventor,” or perhaps “refiner” of the exact shitty ravager build that soO used against TY in GSL Season 1.

This began as a reply in Musicus’s thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/529372-who-invented-the-shitty-ravager-rush) but the length got out of hand so I figured I might as well make it into its own thread.

I will preface this by saying that I’m (obviously) not a progamer nor well-connected behind the scenes, so if Nerchio or Snute or any other progamer comes in and says this post’s contents or analysis or whatever is completely wrong in every respect, then that’s that.

That being said, here we go:

The initial justification I used for crediting Inno was soO’s winner’s interview, where soO explicitly says that Inno recommended the build to him:

.

However, as Musicus and others have pointed out, Inno himself played against several ravager rushes at NationWars IV, specifically from Nerchio and Elazer, who in turn credited Matiz. Mizenhauer also claimed that Scarlett used it in an online tournament around the same time. Others have said Catz was experimenting with the build as far as back as LotV beta.

Suffice to say that there are a lot of claims. However, the key point that I found most everyone has overlooked or disregarded is that different players used several different variations on the “fast ravager rush” build, and that as far as I can tell, soO’s version (which I suspect Inno created) was first played by soO in the GSL, not anyone else. This may sound like a pedantic and hairsplitting distinction, but I for one think the difference is quite significant and have explained it in detail below.

The first example I found (January 21) was Nerchio’s in NationWars:



It was gas-pool-hatch into two lings followed by six roaches (three morph into ravagers). The map was Vaani and Inno used a standard reaper expand. Nerchio won the game, and I would attribute this in no small part to his initial two lings getting past Inno’s wall and dragging the reaper back after it poked into the main (without seeing the roach warren) and scouted the natural hatch. The three-ravager + three-roach followup wasn’t spotted until it was at Inno’s front door and it promptly killed him.

Since getting two lings over a lowered depot on Vaani is something of a lucky break, I’m not sure what would’ve happened if Inno raised the depot on time and the reaper wasn’t forced back to defend. Nonetheless, I think it’s safe to say that the two lings played a crucial role here.

The next example is from Elazer, not even an hour later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxuW0mqrS8Q&feature=youtu.be&t=9906

Unlike Nerchio, Elazer went for a pool first into double gas, followed immediately by a roach warren and three roaches which all morph into ravagers. The map was Overgrowth and Inno again used a standard reaper expand. This time, Inno scouted the ravagers with his reaper and eventually won the game after a prolonged hold.

So the differences between Elazer’s and Nerchio’s versions are fairly significant. Elazer never expanded, skipped the lings, and took two gases immediately while Nerchio never did take the second gas. Elazer also began the attack with pure ravager while Nerchio had roaches. And of course, Nerchio won while Elazer lost.

Digging deeper, I found that Elazer had in fact used the exact same build at WESG as well, against Major (January 13).



It was called the “Habitation Station build” since that was the only map it was used on, and was immediately copied by Stephano the very next day, also on Habitation Station:



So it appears that Elazer is the inventor (or rather Matiz, from whom Elazer got the build, according to the other thread).

Taking a small digression, Mizenhauer pm’d me and claimed that Scarlett had used the shitty ravager build in an online tournament before soO did in GSL. After some more digging, I identified that the online tournament in question was the IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier #2 (January 29), during which Scarlett faced Maru on Habitation Station and used a modified version of Elazer’s Habitation Station build with a gold expand:



Back to the original point, the power behind the Habitation Station build–and any cheese–is in large part due to surprise. Therefore, the later the ravagers are scouted, the more effective the rush will be. The problem with Elazer’s Habitation Station build is that there’s nothing to deny a scout of the rush, and so it completely relies on the opponent’s lack of scouting and/or lackluster micro in the actual defense. Unless Terran goes CC first, the chances for Zerg aren’t optimal. With a standard reaper expand and competent micro, Terran has a reasonable shot at holding the rush, which is obviously far from ideal for the Zerg.

And that issue brings us full circle, back to soO’s winner’s interview, to the question immediately preceding the one about the build’s inventor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB_bk_whKgs&feature=youtu.be&t=5140

Here soO explicitly says that the shitty ravager build failed on Whirlwind because the lings were late getting to TY’s base. We can see that in Game 1, the lings hit at more or less the exact same time TY’s reaper scouts the ravagers out on the map, ~2:55 or so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB_bk_whKgs&feature=youtu.be&t=1163

and then TY promptly cancels his natural and starts a bunker. Contrast this with Game 4 on Abyssal Reef, where soO uses the shitty ravager build again, but this time the lings hit at ~2:10, pulling TY’s reaper back to his base before it makes it across the map and scouts the ravagers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB_bk_whKgs&feature=youtu.be&t=3849


Because of this, TY doesn’t realize he is being cheesed until the ravagers are already in his natural (his reaper scouts reinforcements at the same time the first ravagers walk up). And then soO wins the game.

Adding the evidence of these vods to what soO said in his winner’s interview, I came to the conclusion that Inno, after having seen first Nerchio's cheese and then the Habitation Station build (on Overgrowth) at NationWars, refined it to punish reaper expand as well as CC first and then recommended it to soO for GSL, thus producing the Shitty Ravager Build™.

So a TL;DR

1. Matiz invents the 12-pool into ravager rush
2. Elazer uses this build on Habitation Station at WESG, bringing it to public attention
3. Elazer uses this build on Overgrowth at NationWars, moving the Habitation Station build off Habitation Station
4. Inno refines the build by adding lings and produces the Shitty Ravager Build™
5. soO uses the build and beats TY in GSL



EDIT: Fango brought up a great point about Scarlett incorporating two lings into the Habitation Station build against Maru on Habitation Station at WESG. It's not quite the same as the shitty ravager build since she went gas before pool, and the lings are too late to stop Maru getting a successful reaper scout. But it is very similar, so I can only assume that Scarlett and the other pros didn't pay the build much attention after she lost with it.

EDIT #2: Scarlett in turn attributes the build to Voltz, who beat ByuN on Ulrena with it mid-2016. Deeper into the rabbit hole.....
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-12 00:07:29
December 12 2017 00:05 GMT
#2
Didn't Scarlett do a shitty ravanger build to Maru even earlier at WeSG?

edit: this one
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-12 00:09:27
December 12 2017 00:07 GMT
#3
On December 12 2017 09:05 Fango wrote:
Didn't Scarlett do a shitty ravanger build to Maru even earlier at WeSG?

Very similar but not quite the same, since she went gas before pool and Maru successfully scouted with his reaper. It was on Habitation Station.

At a guess, people didn't pay it much attention since it failed, so Elazer stuck with his version.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Saumure
Profile Joined February 2012
France404 Posts
December 12 2017 01:13 GMT
#4
Since when is Stephano from Tunisia?
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-12 01:17:00
December 12 2017 01:16 GMT
#5
On December 12 2017 10:13 Saumure wrote:
Since when is Stephano from Tunisia?

Since he was born, I assume.

https://twitter.com/md_stephano/status/259642515647504384?lang=en
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Saumure
Profile Joined February 2012
France404 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-19 23:01:47
December 12 2017 01:23 GMT
#6
On December 12 2017 10:16 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2017 10:13 Saumure wrote:
Since when is Stephano from Tunisia?

Since he was born, I assume.

https://twitter.com/md_stephano/status/259642515647504384?lang=en

Oh well I didn't know. It's a shame to lose a good player.
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
December 19 2017 22:40 GMT
#7
Why is this build "shitty" or who called it that as the first person?
Also soo in the interview?
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-19 22:52:46
December 19 2017 22:51 GMT
#8
On December 20 2017 07:40 DSh1 wrote:
Why is this build "shitty" or who called it that as the first person?
Also soo in the interview?


Not sure who first called it that--some LR poster. Durn maybe? And it's shitty, because it's an awful build that just loses if the terran know what they're doing, which they somehow don't unaccountably often.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
December 19 2017 22:53 GMT
#9
Man I completely missed this post when you first posted it, super interesting!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-19 23:15:07
December 19 2017 23:13 GMT
#10
On December 20 2017 07:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2017 07:40 DSh1 wrote:
Why is this build "shitty" or who called it that as the first person?
Also soo in the interview?


Not sure who first called it that--some LR poster. Durn maybe? And it's shitty, because it's an awful build that just loses if the terran know what they're doing, which they somehow don't unaccountably often.

If memory serves, Durn was the one who named it "shitty ravager build," he made several posts that entirely consist of the phrase "Shitty ravager build hype" in a couple LR threads.

On December 20 2017 07:53 Musicus wrote:
Man I completely missed this post when you first posted it, super interesting!

Well, it's thanks to your post that I bothered writing this one, so kudos to you.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
December 20 2017 15:20 GMT
#11
Your entire reasoning for crediting INnoVation is based on you interpreting "INnoVation recommended this build" as "INnoVation created this build". soO only denies that he himself invented it, then says that INnoVation recommended it.

How about this, crazy as it may sound, but stick with me. INnoVation has the ravager build done against him on ladder. soO asks INnoVation about good strategies against TY. INnoVation goes "use the ravager build that just killed me 5 times!"

How on earth you ended up crediting INnoVation for this is absolutely beyond me.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-20 17:45:25
December 20 2017 15:40 GMT
#12
I don't appreciate you sharing the details of PRIVATE message between the two of us in this thread. If I wanted to say the stuff publicly I could have made a post of my own.
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-20 17:26:38
December 20 2017 17:24 GMT
#13
On December 21 2017 00:40 Mizenhauer wrote:
I don't appreciate you sharing the details of PRIVATE message between the two of us in this thread like it's common knowledge. If I wanted it to be public I could have made a post of my own.

Aren't the details of the PM as referred to by this thread already public info that could have been found through other means? Info about what happened in some public qualifier or the other doesn't become private just because the info was obtained privately, so posting this info is totally understandable unless you specifically told him not to tell anyone or something...
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-20 21:18:37
December 20 2017 21:18 GMT
#14
On December 21 2017 00:20 Olli wrote:
Your entire reasoning for crediting INnoVation is based on you interpreting "INnoVation recommended this build" as "INnoVation created this build". soO only denies that he himself invented it, then says that INnoVation recommended it.

How about this, crazy as it may sound, but stick with me. INnoVation has the ravager build done against him on ladder. soO asks INnoVation about good strategies against TY. INnoVation goes "use the ravager build that just killed me 5 times!"

How on earth you ended up crediting INnoVation for this is absolutely beyond me.

At the end of the day, this is mostly just speculation that I was prompted to write down when I saw Musicus’s thread. That's why I put the disclaimer at the top.

On December 21 2017 00:40 Mizenhauer wrote:
I don't appreciate you sharing the details of PRIVATE message between the two of us in this thread. If I wanted to say the stuff publicly I could have made a post of my own.

-- Moved to pm --
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
December 21 2017 16:14 GMT
#15
On December 21 2017 02:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2017 00:40 Mizenhauer wrote:
I don't appreciate you sharing the details of PRIVATE message between the two of us in this thread like it's common knowledge. If I wanted it to be public I could have made a post of my own.

Aren't the details of the PM as referred to by this thread already public info that could have been found through other means? Info about what happened in some public qualifier or the other doesn't become private just because the info was obtained privately, so posting this info is totally understandable unless you specifically told him not to tell anyone or something...



Same here, it didn't struck as personal info, just some random games stuff...

Interesting post, I'm pretty sure a lot of pro terrans are just glad that zergs use that shitty build ^^
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
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