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On October 22 2017 06:59 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 02:48 Fango wrote:
herO's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but don't think it's something to hype up. People say his micro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other protosses can't. Playing a more micro heavy style (lots of agression with stalkers, warp prisms etc) than other protosses doesn't make him automatically the best either. His lategame army control and awareness certainly isn't. I've always liked this little display of micro from hero https://clips.twitch.tv/CreativeHandsomeQueleaKreygasm
Yh it's cute micro and all, but it's not impressive to the point of calling him the best protoss micro-er. Most of the top protoss have been using warp prisms like that since the range was added. Not as much as herO though, warp prism micro seems to go along well with his playstyle
https://clips.twitch.tv/ExcitedFrozenElkBuddhaBar this one was quite funny, using it to prevent viking shots from hitting
edit: it's his larger army control and positioning that I say isn't the best btw, his stalker/warp prism micro is always sharp
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So much hate on him, i did not expect that. Always looked at him as an superb and legitimate PvZ player, a good PvPer, but his PvT is always strange if not simply random BS. (he treats terran like zerg )
At his peaks he is mostly best-PvZ-in-da-world, and he humiliate zergs so much with his top notch micro skill, lack of respect and drone-killing-passion i kinda understand he get some hate, but that much seems incredible.
Stats does not get that hate whereas his PvZ is kinda similar to herO...
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On October 22 2017 05:55 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 05:06 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 04:56 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 03:39 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote:
People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard. In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle. Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose). I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play. The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine. I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese". While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle. I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style. Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes. On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it. ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace. His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it. Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
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On October 22 2017 08:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 05:55 Morbidius wrote:On October 22 2017 05:06 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 04:56 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 03:39 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote:
People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard. In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle. Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose). I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play. The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine. I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese". While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle. I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style. Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes. On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it. ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace. His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it. Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all. He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
Point being that ByuN can and does play macro games, as well as 3rax reaper, or whatever else, but his popularity isn't a product of his playstyle. People like ByuN because he's ByuN. His fans defend his playstyle (all aspects of it) because they like his personality, not because they love the playstyle.
herO on the other hand is judged by his playstyle, and I find that many people don't care for his brand of Protoss bullshit.
Their respective popularity has nothing to do with the races they play, as some moron claimed earlier. It has everything to do with the fact that ByuN and herO are two different people. Popularity is of course and strange and fickle thing, but I think it's safe to say that being a cheesy player, in and of itself, does not win any popularity points.
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On October 22 2017 08:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 05:55 Morbidius wrote:On October 22 2017 05:06 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 04:56 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 03:39 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote:
People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard. In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle. Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose). I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play. The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine. I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese". While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle. I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style. Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes. On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it. ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace. His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it. Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all. He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
Oh yes, the great LosEra, i'm sure he would have rolled Byun if not for imba 3rax reaper.
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On October 22 2017 08:40 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 08:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 22 2017 05:55 Morbidius wrote:On October 22 2017 05:06 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 04:56 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 03:39 Vutalisk wrote:On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote:
People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard. In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle. Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose). I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play. The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine. I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese". While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle. I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style. Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes. On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree? ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it. ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace. His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it. Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all. He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL. Oh yes, the great LosEra, i'm sure he would have rolled Byun if not for imba 3rax reaper.
Losira actually beat ByuN 2-0 in the first match in what were standard games. Byun won the rematch 2-0 with 3RR in one and a failed baneling bust in the other
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On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
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On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
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On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
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On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
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On October 22 2017 13:37 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference? I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game. Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843. That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ). The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
For what it's worth I don't think they would have stayed OP even without the nerf. Balance-wise zerg wasn't too badly off despite the deplorable gameplay, and terrans were (slowly) getting better at handling phoenix/adept towards the end.
The nerf was undoubtedly warranted though, both due to how awful the gameplay was and due to the fact that we'd probably have had to watch a few more months of terrans getting beaten into the ground before we knew for sure whether balance would restore itself or not.
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I think that in current shape herO is number 1.
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On October 22 2017 13:37 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference? I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game. Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843. That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ). The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January.
EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly:
herO vs TY
G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin
G2 - 1 Oracle
G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs
herO vs GuMiho
G1 - Stalker/adept allin
G2 - Phoenix/adept
G3 - Phoenix/adept loss
G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss
G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays
herO vs aLive
G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss
G2 - Phoenix/adept win
G3 - Phoenix/adept win
G4 - Phoenix adept loss
G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi
G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in
So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games.
So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept.
Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
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On October 22 2017 16:52 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 13:37 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference? I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game. Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843. That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ). The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy. Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January. EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games. So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept. Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
I don't really discredit his wins, I also think that he is a strong contender for the title, and that he is with Rogue in the strongest form atm. I just don't enjoy at all watchin him so I hope he'll lose that's all.
Also Stephano constructed his legend without BL/infestor, when BL/infestor was all over starcraft Stephano wasn't that good because he was quite bad in ZvZ so more Zerg = less success for pano.
And why discredit INnoVation's play at IEM Gyeonggi, he beat the best zerg, Dark in semi finals (DArk was blizzcon finalist and beat Byun the blizzcon winner in ro8), he also beat Stats in final (Stats has beaten Maru in ro8) even if he crumbled against INno it is still a great performance.
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On October 22 2017 18:16 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 16:52 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 13:37 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference? I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game. Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843. That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ). The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy. Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January. EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games. So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept. Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time? I don't really discredit his wins, I also think that he is a strong contender for the title, and that he is with Rogue in the strongest form atm. I just don't enjoy at all watchin him so I hope he'll lose that's all. Also Stephano constructed his legend without BL/infestor, when BL/infestor was all over starcraft Stephano wasn't that good because he was quite bad in ZvZ so more Zerg = less success for pano. And why discredit INnoVation's play at IEM Gyeonggi, he beat the best zerg, Dark in semi finals (DArk was blizzcon finalist and beat Byun the blizzcon winner in ro8), he also beat Stats in final (Stats has beaten Maru in ro8) even if he crumbled against INno it is still a great performance.
That's a fair point to all those questions.
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On October 22 2017 16:52 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 13:37 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 12:32 pvsnp wrote:On October 22 2017 12:30 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote:
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that) How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016. Adept/Phoenix Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference? I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game. Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843. That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ). The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy. Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January. EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games. So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept. Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
In general the phoenix/adept seemed to be going out of fashion around the time of the ST1 since zerg and especially terran became better at dealing with it. The nerf was just the final nail in the coffin. However, if I remember correctly it was still such a big part of the meta that zerg and terran had to prepare to deal with it making protoss able to abuse it by going into other playstyles with the other player behind because they prepared for adept/phoenix. Even as a protoss I'm incredibly happy that adept/phoenix is mostly gone since it really boring to see it in every game. But I think it could have disappeared even without the nerf.
As a herO fan I am happy that he is doing well but I can see why people dislike him as he is really good at abusing strategies like he did with blinkstalkers in the incredibly blink friendly mappool of, what was it?, 2014/2015?
And I discount a bit of Stephanos success because of the infestor/broodlord comp. It was increadibly abusive for a while.
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WCS
