EPTTLMC9 Final Results - Page 3
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On October 07 2017 17:29 paralleluniverse wrote: Given that Sky Garden is much better than the other 4 player map, Neo Tropicana (and also got a higher result), it should be added to the map pool to replace Catellena. Catallena should never have been in a competitive lotv map pool in the first place, it has coinflip spawn issues and no circular airspace control. Pros were voicing concerns loudly in 2017 S1 when honorgrounds and cactus valley were causing all sorts of swarmhost and turbovac/doomdrop issues, or even players getting a gold as their 4th when another one got a blue as a 4th (honorgrounds)... Blizz listened and it helped. In 2017 S2 we were able to rid ourselves of 4p/3p maps ... but then they crept back in the next season somehow with frost->catallena...  ?Coinflips and spawn position imbalances on maps like frost don't belong in competition (zvt favors cross>horizontal>vertical), i've had to compete in tournaments on quite a lot of bullshit maps throughout my years in starcraft2 like  Waystation where cross was ridicilous z favored and close was t favored, or at the very least nowhere near as z favored as cross. Sky Garden is no different, there's a 2/3 chance of good spawns for z and 1/3 of close by air which doesn't favor z at all in comparison.There should be two separate 1v1 ladders with competitive pool (7maps) and wild pool (way more than 7 maps?) in 2018 imo, like in hearthstone. Then there can finally be different 'fun maps' with coinflips and balance issues (catallena, inferno pools, dasan station, sky garden, prion terraces, frost, etc) in a pool where they can be enjoyed properly. It would also make it possible for people to actually play maps outside of the current 7 with help from the matchmaking system. The matchmaking system is one of the best features of starcraft 2. I don't see many reasons outside of development costs to not implement a solution like this. the game has somehow been stuck in this "only one map pool of 7 maps" mindset for seven years and it's not necessary at all | ||
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fluidrone
France1478 Posts
</3 | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16009 Posts
Similar to how nobody plays the balance tester despite it having its own matchmaking as well. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On October 07 2017 18:18 Liquid`Snute wrote: Catallena should never have been in a competitive lotv map pool in the first place, it has coinflip spawn issues and no circular airspace control. Pros were voicing concerns loudly in 2017 S1 when honorgrounds and cactus valley were causing all sorts of swarmhost and turbovac/doomdrop issues, or even players getting a gold as their 4th when another one got a blue as a 4th (honorgrounds)... Blizz listened and it helped. In 2017 S2 we were able to rid ourselves of 4p/3p maps ... but then they crept back in the next season somehow with frost->catallena... ?Coinflips and spawn position imbalances on maps like frost don't belong in competition (zvt favors cross>horizontal>vertical), i've had to compete in tournaments on quite a lot of bullshit maps throughout my years in starcraft2 like Waystation where cross was ridicilous z favored and close was t favored, or at the very least nowhere near as z favored as cross. Sky Garden is no different, there's a 2/3 chance of good spawns for z and 1/3 of close by air which doesn't favor z at all in comparison.There should be two separate 1v1 ladders with competitive pool (7maps) and wild pool (way more than 7 maps?) in 2018 imo, like in hearthstone. Then there can finally be different 'fun maps' with coinflips and balance issues (catallena, inferno pools, dasan station, sky garden, prion terraces, frost, etc) in a pool where they can be enjoyed properly. It would also make it possible for people to actually play maps outside of the current 7 with help from the matchmaking system. The matchmaking system is one of the best features of starcraft 2. I don't see many reasons outside of development costs to not implement a solution like this. the game has somehow been stuck in this "only one map pool of 7 maps" mindset for seven years and it's not necessary at all As long as no spawn is extremely imbalanced, I do not see how random spawns are a problem in principle. Suppose a 4-player map has 2 different spawn types (e.g. horizontal and vertical) with win rates in TvZ of 50% and 60% respectively. How is this any more unfair in a substantive way than having 2 different 2-player maps with TvZ win rate of 50% and 60%? In fact, the expected TvZ win rate on this 4-player map would be 55%, which is more balanced than the 2-player map with a TvZ win rate of 60% (60% is not unusual as most maps have some match-up imbalances). As for Sky Garden, spawn issues aside, it is a really unique map, there hasn't been a map in the ladder pool as large as it for years, it has interesting ambush points, and it looks very pretty. And if the close air to air spawn turns out to be a balance problem that spawn can be disabled. Is your problem that the probability of winning has too much variance as the spawn is randomized for these particular 4-player maps. Or is it with all 4-player maps in general? A wild pool for unranked probably makes sense, but not for ranked. That should be competitive with one fixed map pool that is the same as what WCS uses. The competitive experience should be standardized. Pros were voicing concerns loudly in 2017 S1 when honorgrounds and cactus valley were causing all sorts of swarmhost and turbovac/doomdrop issues, or even players getting a gold as their 4th when another one got a blue as a 4th (honorgrounds)... Also, I've been staring at Honorgrounds and don't see the issue you're referring to. Every spawn location has an equidistant gold base next to the base down the ramp. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Corvuuss
Austria354 Posts
On October 07 2017 19:46 paralleluniverse wrote: As long as no spawn is extremely imbalanced, I do not see how random spawns are a problem in principle. Suppose a 4-player map has 2 different spawn types (e.g. horizontal and vertical) with win rates in TvZ of 50% and 60% respectively. How is this any more unfair in a substantive way than having 2 different 2-player maps with TvZ win rate of 50% and 60%? In fact, the expected TvZ win rate on this 4-player map would be 55%, which is more balanced than the 2-player map with a TvZ win rate of 60% (60% is not unusual as most maps have some match-up imbalances). As for Sky Garden, spawn issues aside, it is a really unique map, there hasn't been a map in the ladder pool as large as it for years, it has interesting ambush points, and it looks very pretty. And if the close air to air spawn turns out to be a balance problem that spawn can be disabled. Is your problem that the probability of winning has too much variance as the spawn is randomized for these particular 4-player maps. Or is it with all 4-player maps in general? A wild pool for unranked probably makes sense, but not for ranked. That should be competitive with one fixed map pool that is the same as what WCS uses. The competitive experience should be standardized. Also, I've been staring at Honorgrounds and don't see the issue you're referring to. Every spawn location has an equidistant gold base next to the base down the ramp. You can't say that a map with a 50%/60% win rate is the same as 2 maps with one of them each. First of all the number of maps is different and it should be the goal to only have balanced maps. On the second point you could remove the 60% spawns (though that would probably cause problems with the other non-mirror match-ups) Oh and with honorgrounds, you don't have the same gold 4th because in certain spawn situations, one person would have to expand towards the opponent to get the gold 4th while the other would not have to. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
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DSh1
292 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On October 07 2017 18:58 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think anyone would play on this experimental mappool. Similar to how nobody plays the balance tester despite it having its own matchmaking as well. i disagree. i think it's different. for an amateur player who has reached a skill plateau and isn't trying to rank up anymore a lot of excitement can come from changing up maps and strategies. even easier, you could just make unranked map pool standard pool + experimental pool and allow infinite vetoes in unranked | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On October 07 2017 23:22 brickrd wrote: i disagree. i think it's different. for an amateur player who has reached a skill plateau and isn't trying to rank up anymore a lot of excitement can come from changing up maps and strategies. even easier, you could just make unranked map pool standard pool + experimental pool and allow infinite vetoes in unranked You can't have 50% or more map vetoes no matter what since at that point it impacts matchmaking times. Also completely disagree with having an experimental map pool that's separate, because of playerbase fragmentation concerns. Also it isn't clear how many people would go out of their way to play on maps like Prion Terraces- - probably not enough I'd guess to warrant a first class feature. What Blizzard could do is increase pool size to 11 or 13 (with 5 and 6 vetoes respectively) and have tournament select their pool of seven from the ladder pool so if a map has been shown by ladder play (which is the only way to really test maps) to be too wild for the pro scene they can not include it. Pros would still be able to focus practice on the tournament maps through vetoes and tournaments would also have more flexibility map pool wise. This way you avoid any fragmentation problems and search time increases that splitting the pool would incur. Also incidentally Sky Garden didn't look like a great map in any of the spawns. | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
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Avexyli
United States700 Posts
On October 08 2017 00:09 Ingvar wrote: Didn't have time to take a look properly so didn't vote but the results are disappointing. I guess Avex is the symbol of current TLMC-s: he is a talented mapmaker but he settles for making good but uninspired and forgettable standard maps - because that's what everyone wants. wat Did you play on Eremita, Blood Boil, Invader? | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
On October 08 2017 00:09 Ingvar wrote: This is pretty much how I feel about the results too. Neon Violet Square is the only map I remember being interesting from that Wardi tournament. Other cool maps I liked were Neo Tropicana and God's Garden but they didn't make it. Didn't have time to take a look properly so didn't vote but the results are disappointing. I guess Avex is the symbol of current TLMC-s: he is a talented mapmaker but he settles for making good but uninspired and forgettable standard maps - because that's what everyone wants. | ||
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Elentos
55555 Posts
On October 08 2017 01:10 Avexyli wrote: wat Did you play on Eremita, Blood Boil, Invader? It's true, there are also some bad but inspired and unforgettable non-standard maps in his resume as well.  | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 08 2017 01:10 Avexyli wrote: wat Did you play on Eremita, Blood Boil, Invader? It's not my idea but you have to add critters with the names "Jenny, Lisa, Rosé and Jisoo" btw. Just saying | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1901 Posts
On October 08 2017 02:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not my idea but you have to add critters with the names "Jenny, Lisa, Rosé and Jisoo" btw. Just saying SPOILER: It was my idea. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
One of the best ideas ever tbh | ||
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