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Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
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On September 29 2017 03:30 Snarosc wrote:
I should say I'm surprised Dear 3 - 1'ed Gumigod, but I honestly am not. Dear has been top form lately, like "2013 Dear" form.
Dear did nothing special tbh, Gumiho threw all of those games with stupid builds or mistakes. Not saying Dear played badly, but it doesn't indicate he's back in his old form
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
Because hydra bane crush bio, and at this lvl it's hard to compensate, just look at TY.
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Wow Terran can win TvT so far !!!
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4.
Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
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But it wasn't simple mech that brought INno his win... Maru can't just do that, he must think deeper in the strategy (like INno used his new Banshee bo)
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On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
Bio may have been struggling, I guess (not sure I even buy that, and this is as a terran). But mech isn't doing much better. Inno, with his 84% TvZ winrate already, just about beat Dark with it and now it's the way to go? Honestly, if they had a rematch where Dark had prepared for mech specifically he could probably take it, in their series he hadn't seemed to have grasped how to counter it properly (it was the first time Inno used that style for a whole series in LoTV I think?). One series isn't enough to prove that a new style is the way to go basically
I'm just seeing terrans going mech and losing to players they should beat, or at least compete with. I really don't think it's a wise choice for a lot of them.
edit: also these mech vs toss builds are stupid and probably will never work
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
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On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
Has gumiho even beaten a single zerg since the GSL final?
edit: okay he beat Elazer I'll give him that
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 30 2017 04:22 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one. Has gumiho even beaten a single zerg since the GSL final? edit: okay he beat Elazer I'll give him that
People play ladder you know.
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On September 30 2017 03:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Bio may have been struggling, I guess (not sure I even buy that, and this is as a terran). But mech isn't doing much better. Inno, with his 84% TvZ winrate already, just about beat Dark with it and now it's the way to go? Honestly, if they had a rematch where Dark had prepared for mech specifically he could probably take it, in their series he hadn't seemed to have grasped how to counter it properly (it was the first time Inno used that style for a whole series in LoTV I think?). One series isn't enough to prove that a new style is the way to go basically I'm just seeing terrans going mech and losing to players they should beat, or at least compete with. I really don't think it's a wise choice for a lot of them. edit: also these mech vs toss builds are stupid and probably will never work
Bio is most definitely struggling against Hydra/Ling/Bane at the pro level. How many games go late compared to the days of LBM or Roach-Ravager? Ultras or even BL are a regular sight these days. If Terrans can't end it in the midgame as they used to be able to do, that's the definition of struggling. GSL S3 winrates for TvZ are the lowest they've been all year, 47% in S3 compared to 58% S1 and 73% (!) in S2.
If one tool fails, we try another. Enter mech. Seeing pros lose with bio and win with mech has to encourage that, I would think. Not everyone is good with mech ofc, but that's a different issue altogether.
Mech vs toss will never work and it's stupid to try, agreed.
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On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
He isn't the only reason of course, but I would definitely credit him as a big influence. Namely because I've seen people trying to copy his specific double Starport build in recent times.
Mech has been gaining popularity for awhile, as you said, which I think Gumiho deserves some credit for since he beat soO in the GSL finals. Inno also used mech to beat Solar in the SSL finals around that time though, so there's that.
A high-profile victory like Inno over Dark hardly hurts the cause, though.
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On September 29 2017 12:11 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 11:30 ParksonVN wrote:
Feel like Maru plays mech when he knows he cant win with bio. He doesn’t really know what to do even though he got fantastic mechanic, i would say pair with Inno. The real mech players like Gumiho, Inno know when to turtle and when to timing push as well as which combo to transition in each stage of the game. And they would have easily won game 3 versus Rogue after that early advantage. Maru is not terrible with mech by any means, but he is significantly worse with it than he is with bio. This is pretty common with Terrans in general and Korean Terrans in particular, bio TvZ is their way of life and the radically different playstyle that is mech throws them for a loop–and it shows. Some of them don't even bother to try
That is what happens when the foundation is bad.It leads to many things that not simply to solve.Dustin Browder wanted to creat something compeletely different from BW but for some reason killing mech was his way.And in result designing mech nowday got a really heavy burden which is Bios.
Bios playstyle exists for way too long to the point Blizz can't just change factory units whatever they want without caring about bios,main playstyle of koreans.
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
The only reason why ravens are so bullshit is seeker missle.But Maru didn't abuse that skill to be mr.cost efficient.Rogue did with his own "seeker missles".At that point many people though Maru should win that game but he didn't deliver.
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EPT
