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4 Posts
With the 2017 WCS Season all but wrapped up, seven Koreans and one foreigner met on day one of the second GSL Super Tournament for a final chance at WCS Points and for  Maru,  Rogue,  Classic and aLive, a spot at BlizzCon.
TIME hindered INnoVation’s development with a small siege on Abyssal Reef, but INnoVation caught two full medivacs mid map to seize control. Up four bases to three, he forced TIME to attack into sieged tanks with grisly results. INnoVation reinforced with liberators to go ahead 1-0.
TIME contained INnoVation on two bases while taking a third and, while he eventually lost his tanks, he repulsed INnoVation’s counterattack. He pushed back with liberators while holding air control, taking a 50 supply lead before sieging INnoVation's third, evening the series.
TIME proxied a starport on Odyssey, but INnoVation caught the SCV with a reaper. The liberator eventually got out, but INnoVation defended and killed the starport. Having taken a lead, INnoVation sieged TIME's natural, segmenting the Chinese Terran's army to take a 2-1 lead.
INnoVation gained a slight advantage in game four with auto turrets and kept it with a strong defensive posture. TIME moved out, but INnoVation charged into TIME’s third with marines at that very moment. TIME lost his army soon after, seeing INnoVation through to the next round.
Classic took a quick third base while going adept/phoenix in game one. He and aLive traded worker kills, but Classic steadily built a supply lead while researching blink. He won the first big fight against bio/mine/lib before wrapping things up as he added on colossus.
Classic killed fourteen SCVs with dark templar on Ascension to Aiur before shutting down aLive's counter aggression. The game seesawed back and forth, with both players donating their armies, but Classic's colossus and high templar eventually put him over the top.
aLive and Classic skipped straight to the late game on Acolyte. When aLive’s ranged liberators and vikings finally got around to fighting Classic’s tempests, colossus and high templar, aLive won out. He quickly countered, further crippling Classic and earning a concession.
aLive opened game four with a proxy factory. He pumped out cyclones two by two, forcing Classic into a desperate situation. Classic defended with stalkers, probes and zealots, but aLive's production overwhelmed him.
Classic’s oracles killed 13 workers early in game five. aLive applied constant pressure, but Classic refused to give up the lead. In the end, it was a stasis ward on the meat of aLive’s army that saw him suffer fatal losses and leave the game soon after. The result removed aLive from the BlizzCon picture, while keeping Classic in contention going into his Round of 8 match against INnoVation.
Dear's dark templar opening fell flat on its face, setting up a lethal counterattack from GuMiho, whose two medivacs full of marines put him ahead 1-0.
Dear’s oracle killed six SCVs in game two, but he lost his third base in exchange. Things swung in Dear's favor, though, as his adepts and phoenixes routed GuMiho's bio before catching a pair of banshees. GuMiho hung around, but he was always behind and eventually left the game.
Dear's early oracle pressure bought him space for his phoenixes to scout GuMiho's strange mech transition. Dear slapped back GuMiho's initial forays onto the map with charge zealots, immortals and storm, before wrapping things up with an attack on GuMiho's third to go up 2-1.
GuMiho opened game four with a proxy factory and a cyclone/marine push, but all it did was leave him wide open to an oracle which killed sixteen workers. GuMiho shoved into Dear's natural, but his push fizzled, sending Dear to the quarterfinals.
Rogue lost 12 drones to hellions in game one, but macroed up from there to combat Maru’s mech. Rogue’s choice of swarm hosts and hydra/bane kept Maru on the back foot while limiting his economy and eventually forced an ill fated attack that put Rogue ahead in the series.
Maru's early marine/tank pressure did little to impede Rogue on Odyssey. Rogue went into ling/bane/hydra, controlling the game with frontal attacks and run bys as he added in vipers and ultralisks. Maru fought back with ghosts, but to no avail, as Rogue took a 2-0 lead.
Maru and Rogue nearly mined out Acolyte in game three, with Maru’s mech fighting to an impasse against the Zerg swarm. Maru won the air war with ravens and vikings, but was overrun by hydralisks as Rogue completed the 3-0 sweep. The win keeps his BlizzCon hopes alive, while simultaneously eliminating Maru from contention.
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your Country52797 Posts
I'm pleasantly surprised that TIME won a game. Good for him.
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Obligatory spoiler comment
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TIME played really well against Inno
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aLive was really close of a little hold up
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If sOs doesn't win tomorrow, either Classic or Rogue can qualify for Blizzcon by getting at least second place.
If sOs makes it to the quarterfinals but loses, Rogue or Classic will have to win ST2 to qualify.
If sOs makes it to the semis, Rogue is out but Classic can still make it by winning the tournament.
If sOs makes it to the finals, he's in.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 29 2017 00:38 Sakat wrote:
Obligatory spoiler comment
Obligatory no spoiler button comment
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On September 29 2017 01:30 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
If sOs doesn't win tomorrow, either Classic or Rogue can qualify for Blizzcon by getting at least second place.
If sOs makes it to the quarterfinals but loses, Rogue or Classic will have to win ST2 to qualify.
If sOs makes it to the semis, Rogue is out but Classic can still make it by winning the tournament.
If sOs makes it to the finals, he's in.
Problem is : Classic will face the GOAT
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On September 29 2017 01:52 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 01:30 beepbeeeeeeep wrote:
If sOs doesn't win tomorrow, either Classic or Rogue can qualify for Blizzcon by getting at least second place.
If sOs makes it to the quarterfinals but loses, Rogue or Classic will have to win ST2 to qualify.
If sOs makes it to the semis, Rogue is out but Classic can still make it by winning the tournament.
If sOs makes it to the finals, he's in. Problem is : Classic will face the GOAT
Inno is on record as saying he doesn't give a fuck about the Super Tournament, which is supported by him dropping a map to Time of all people. TvP is also his worst MU.
Classic on the other hand really really wants to win because Blizzcon. He looked good against aLive, though he did make some stupid mistakes too.
Inno is still the favorite because, well, he's INnoVation. But I wouldn't be shocked if Classic won either.
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Which is always convenient cause then you can lose and people will say it's okay cause you didn't give a fuck, or win and people can be amazed that you won without even giving a fuck.
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On September 29 2017 02:23 Nebuchad wrote:
Which is always convenient cause then you can lose and people will say it's okay cause you didn't give a fuck, or win and people can be amazed that you won without even giving a fuck.
Machine is smart 
Can't always do it though. Lilbow tried to pull something like that at Blizzcon ("didn't even practice for this") and became a laughingstock.
Personally I don't think it requires a tremendous leap of faith to believe the GSL champion who is guaranteed 2nd in the standings (and Blizzcon) even if he lost every game, really doesn't care very much about a weekender with a relatively small prize pool.
And Classic, a guy on record as really really wanting to go to Blizzcon (remember S3 group nominations?) is his oldest friend. I can totally see Inno going easy on him, under the circumstances.
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He is still a tough competitor, i'm sure he cares about this tournament considering he will/can face his blizzcon opponents, but sure, not a lot of pressure on his shoulders since he has won SSL GSLvsWorld and GSL within 3 months 
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I should say I'm surprised Dear 3 - 1'ed Gumigod, but I honestly am not. Dear has been top form lately, like "2013 Dear" form.
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And Gumiho isnt that good if you compare with top 3 terrans
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On September 29 2017 03:30 Snarosc wrote:
I should say I'm surprised Dear 3 - 1'ed Gumigod, but I honestly am not. Dear has been top form lately, like "2013 Dear" form.
Sometimes he looks that way, but he is very inconsistent.
2013 Dear won GSL. 2017 Dear got knocked out of GSL in the Ro16, then got manhandled by Dark in SSL playoffs.
Not quite the same as 2013.
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Rogue should have been the GSL champion in season 2!
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France12904 Posts
On September 29 2017 02:23 Nebuchad wrote:
Which is always convenient cause then you can lose and people will say it's okay cause you didn't give a fuck, or win and people can be amazed that you won without even giving a fuck.
Doesn't giving a fuck in sc2 is pretty fallacious, because if you don't practice you look really bad really quickly, no matter who you are.
INno looked like utter trash a couple of times in LotV already.
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It would be great to see Inno vs Rogue in the semis, though I kind of doubt it.
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Feel like Maru plays mech when he knows he cant win with bio. He doesn’t really know what to do even though he got fantastic mechanic, i would say pair with Inno. The real mech players like Gumiho, Inno know when to turtle and when to timing push as well as which combo to transition in each stage of the game. And they would have easily won game 3 versus Rogue after that early advantage.
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On September 29 2017 11:30 ParksonVN wrote:
Feel like Maru plays mech when he knows he cant win with bio. He doesn’t really know what to do even though he got fantastic mechanic, i would say pair with Inno. The real mech players like Gumiho, Inno know when to turtle and when to timing push as well as which combo to transition in each stage of the game. And they would have easily won game 3 versus Rogue after that early advantage.
Maru is not terrible with mech by any means, but he is significantly worse with it than he is with bio. This is pretty common with Terrans in general and Korean Terrans in particular, bio TvZ is their way of life and the radically different playstyle that is mech throws them for a loop–and it shows. Some of them don't even bother to try; I don't think ByuN has ever gone mech in an offline game, for instance, that guy is locked on 100% bio. aLive, Bunny, are also pure bio. TY on the other hand has used mech with moderate success, even though he mostly sticks to bio.
Gumiho, as always, is the odd man out, stubbornly trying to make mech work all the time, even when it is completely out of the meta. And to his credit, he makes it work pretty well (well enough to beat soO in the GSL finals, at least). Ironically, it is now that mech has crept back into the meta that Gumiho is struggling. In any case, Gumiho goes mech so much as a direct result of his bio TvZ being shit, relatively speaking.
And Inno of course is the best TvZ player in the world with a storied past in that particular matchup. He's the only Terran that has the ability to play top-tier bio and top-tier mech, so when he switches it up, everyone knows which way the winds are blowing in the TvZ meta. As demonstrated by mech's recent upsurge after Inno defeated Dark.
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Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
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On September 29 2017 03:30 Snarosc wrote:
I should say I'm surprised Dear 3 - 1'ed Gumigod, but I honestly am not. Dear has been top form lately, like "2013 Dear" form.
Dear did nothing special tbh, Gumiho threw all of those games with stupid builds or mistakes. Not saying Dear played badly, but it doesn't indicate he's back in his old form
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
Because hydra bane crush bio, and at this lvl it's hard to compensate, just look at TY.
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Wow Terran can win TvT so far !!!
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4.
Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
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But it wasn't simple mech that brought INno his win... Maru can't just do that, he must think deeper in the strategy (like INno used his new Banshee bo)
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On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
Bio may have been struggling, I guess (not sure I even buy that, and this is as a terran). But mech isn't doing much better. Inno, with his 84% TvZ winrate already, just about beat Dark with it and now it's the way to go? Honestly, if they had a rematch where Dark had prepared for mech specifically he could probably take it, in their series he hadn't seemed to have grasped how to counter it properly (it was the first time Inno used that style for a whole series in LoTV I think?). One series isn't enough to prove that a new style is the way to go basically
I'm just seeing terrans going mech and losing to players they should beat, or at least compete with. I really don't think it's a wise choice for a lot of them.
edit: also these mech vs toss builds are stupid and probably will never work
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech.
Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
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On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
Has gumiho even beaten a single zerg since the GSL final?
edit: okay he beat Elazer I'll give him that
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 30 2017 04:22 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one. Has gumiho even beaten a single zerg since the GSL final? edit: okay he beat Elazer I'll give him that
People play ladder you know.
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On September 30 2017 03:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Bio may have been struggling, I guess (not sure I even buy that, and this is as a terran). But mech isn't doing much better. Inno, with his 84% TvZ winrate already, just about beat Dark with it and now it's the way to go? Honestly, if they had a rematch where Dark had prepared for mech specifically he could probably take it, in their series he hadn't seemed to have grasped how to counter it properly (it was the first time Inno used that style for a whole series in LoTV I think?). One series isn't enough to prove that a new style is the way to go basically I'm just seeing terrans going mech and losing to players they should beat, or at least compete with. I really don't think it's a wise choice for a lot of them. edit: also these mech vs toss builds are stupid and probably will never work
Bio is most definitely struggling against Hydra/Ling/Bane at the pro level. How many games go late compared to the days of LBM or Roach-Ravager? Ultras or even BL are a regular sight these days. If Terrans can't end it in the midgame as they used to be able to do, that's the definition of struggling. GSL S3 winrates for TvZ are the lowest they've been all year, 47% in S3 compared to 58% S1 and 73% (!) in S2.
If one tool fails, we try another. Enter mech. Seeing pros lose with bio and win with mech has to encourage that, I would think. Not everyone is good with mech ofc, but that's a different issue altogether.
Mech vs toss will never work and it's stupid to try, agreed.
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On September 30 2017 03:50 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:33 pvsnp wrote:On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over All the Terrans are going mech because they saw Inno beat Dark with mech 3 games out of 4. Bio has been struggling against LBH for awhile now, it's quite simply stronger than LBM or Roach-Ravager-Infestor and neither 4M or Bio-Tank are as effective as they used to be. TY getting crushed by Dark wasn't exactly encouraging for the bio TvZ argument. When Inno defeated Dark with mech a week later........well, 2+2 = mech. Pretty sure INnoVation is not the reason why Terrans are meching. These trends exist on ladder long before you see them in tournaments. If anything you have to credit GuMiho for starting this one.
He isn't the only reason of course, but I would definitely credit him as a big influence. Namely because I've seen people trying to copy his specific double Starport build in recent times.
Mech has been gaining popularity for awhile, as you said, which I think Gumiho deserves some credit for since he beat soO in the GSL finals. Inno also used mech to beat Solar in the SSL finals around that time though, so there's that.
A high-profile victory like Inno over Dark hardly hurts the cause, though.
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On September 29 2017 12:11 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 11:30 ParksonVN wrote:
Feel like Maru plays mech when he knows he cant win with bio. He doesn’t really know what to do even though he got fantastic mechanic, i would say pair with Inno. The real mech players like Gumiho, Inno know when to turtle and when to timing push as well as which combo to transition in each stage of the game. And they would have easily won game 3 versus Rogue after that early advantage. Maru is not terrible with mech by any means, but he is significantly worse with it than he is with bio. This is pretty common with Terrans in general and Korean Terrans in particular, bio TvZ is their way of life and the radically different playstyle that is mech throws them for a loop–and it shows. Some of them don't even bother to try
That is what happens when the foundation is bad.It leads to many things that not simply to solve.Dustin Browder wanted to creat something compeletely different from BW but for some reason killing mech was his way.And in result designing mech nowday got a really heavy burden which is Bios.
Bios playstyle exists for way too long to the point Blizz can't just change factory units whatever they want without caring about bios,main playstyle of koreans.
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On September 29 2017 17:25 Fango wrote:
Gumiho's mech isn't even that good. He beat soO because soO can't ZvT, not because mech is great.
Maru may have some of the best micro/macro of all terrans, but he wasn't enough to win in the ultra lategame against Rogue. I don't get why he doesn't just stick with bio that everyone knows he's good at. It was the same last season when he tried mass reaper every game and failed, then tried standard bio and crushed Dark with it.
Actually, I don't understand why all the terrans want to mech right now tbh when swarm hosts and vipers are around. If you don't win with the first push or timing, it's over
The only reason why ravens are so bullshit is seeker missle.But Maru didn't abuse that skill to be mr.cost efficient.Rogue did with his own "seeker missles".At that point many people though Maru should win that game but he didn't deliver.
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EPT
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2
