On August 31 2017 23:57 Corwinus wrote: I think Asphodel is an incredibly creative map in its execution - basically, it looks like two maps in one since the base layouts are different depending on the spawns you get(which are, thankfully, just cross spawns). That alone makes the map really appealing to me, though it depends to see how it looks in action to see if it works out well.
There was a map called Waystation which did it in the past, and in general what I believe is the consensus amongst zerg/terran pros is that the map's spawn situation was garbage. It was clearly overpowered for T in close and for Z in cross - this would most likely still hold true today. That's why I'm generally against maps like Asphodel, because it's better to have for example an Abyssal Reef and an AsphodelOnlyOneSpawnScenario side by side in a 7map pool, rather than a map that can play out differently depending on spawn situation paired with a 4player map or something.
All the positives from the "variety factor" can be created by having a 2p map pool that doesn't suck. A 2 in 1-map seems like a good idea on paper, but I'd say there are no downsides to just having two maps instead. Having 'game outcomes change' because of a certain spawn being active or not is generally not healthy for competition and is one of the reasons why I never liked having Waystation and 4 player maps in the map pool.
That being said, this map offends way less than Whirlwind, Frost, Cactus Valley, Honorgrounds, and Waystation could ever do because the 2 spawns are kinda similar in rush distance. That aside, I'd take two maps based off of each spawn situation maybe with different aesthetics over a 2in1-map any day.
edit: i just wanna end on a positive note and say that i like the map! just think that 2in1 should be avoided for competition, similar to 4p/3p maps with spawn/symmetry problems
On August 31 2017 23:57 Corwinus wrote: I think Asphodel is an incredibly creative map in its execution - basically, it looks like two maps in one since the base layouts are different depending on the spawns you get(which are, thankfully, just cross spawns). That alone makes the map really appealing to me, though it depends to see how it looks in action to see if it works out well.
There was a map called Waystation which did it in the past, and in general what I believe is the consensus amongst zerg/terran pros is that the map's spawn situation was garbage. It was clearly overpowered for T in close and for Z in cross - this would most likely still hold true today. That's why I'm generally against maps like Asphodel, because it's better to have for example an Abyssal Reef and an AsphodelOnlyOneSpawnScenario side by side in a 7map pool, rather than a map that can play out differently depending on spawn situation paired with a 4player map or something.
All the positives from the "variety factor" can be created by having a 2p map pool that doesn't suck. A 2 in 1-map seems like a good idea on paper, but I'd say there are no downsides to just having two maps instead. Having 'game outcomes change' because of a certain spawn being active or not is generally not healthy for competition and is one of the reasons why I never liked having Waystation and 4 player maps in the map pool.
That being said, this map offends way less than Whirlwind, Frost, Cactus Valley, Honorgrounds, and Waystation could ever do because the 2 spawns are kinda similar in rush distance. That aside, I'd take two maps based off of each spawn situation maybe with different aesthetics over a 2in1-map any day.
edit: i just wanna end on a positive note and say that i like the map! just think that 2in1 should be avoided for competition, similar to 4p/3p maps with spawn/symmetry problems
Yeah, thank you for explaining this! I was thinking that that could be an issue, but I'm a relatively newer player so I haven't played Waystation or maps like that. My second thought was, which I probably should have posted initially, that if it didn't work out, why not just make two 2-player maps with those cross spawn layouts but obviously different outlying bases.
On August 31 2017 23:57 Corwinus wrote: I think Asphodel is an incredibly creative map in its execution - basically, it looks like two maps in one since the base layouts are different depending on the spawns you get(which are, thankfully, just cross spawns). That alone makes the map really appealing to me, though it depends to see how it looks in action to see if it works out well.
There was a map called Waystation which did it in the past, and in general what I believe is the consensus amongst zerg/terran pros is that the map's spawn situation was garbage. It was clearly overpowered for T in close and for Z in cross - this would most likely still hold true today. That's why I'm generally against maps like Asphodel, because it's better to have for example an Abyssal Reef and an AsphodelOnlyOneSpawnScenario side by side in a 7map pool, rather than a map that can play out differently depending on spawn situation paired with a 4player map or something.
All the positives from the "variety factor" can be created by having a 2p map pool that doesn't suck. A 2 in 1-map seems like a good idea on paper, but I'd say there are no downsides to just having two maps instead. Having 'game outcomes change' because of a certain spawn being active or not is generally not healthy for competition and is one of the reasons why I never liked having Waystation and 4 player maps in the map pool.
That being said, this map offends way less than Whirlwind, Frost, Cactus Valley, Honorgrounds, and Waystation could ever do because the 2 spawns are kinda similar in rush distance. That aside, I'd take two maps based off of each spawn situation maybe with different aesthetics over a 2in1-map any day.
edit: i just wanna end on a positive note and say that i like the map! just think that 2in1 should be avoided for competition, similar to 4p/3p maps with spawn/symmetry problems
I don't disagree... 2 in 1 maps come with a few pros and some cons and by and large the cons crushingly outweigh the pros. It's possible to get maps with multiple spawns right though--I personally really liked Foxtrot Labs. In the case of Asphodel it kinda grew organically into a 2 in 1 map when I realized the middle I wanted did a good job of pulling double duty in either direction. Not sure if it was the right decision, but I do think that 2 in 1 maps have at least a little something to offer that 2 spawns maps don't. Better utilization of the map corners. Providing variety in the real world where some of the maps in the pool suck and three maps are played much more heavily than the others. Of course the majority of the time that little something is lost due to each facet of the map being weaker overall to accommodate the multiple spawn situation, but I think the vision is sound at least.
On August 31 2017 23:57 Corwinus wrote: I think Asphodel is an incredibly creative map in its execution - basically, it looks like two maps in one since the base layouts are different depending on the spawns you get(which are, thankfully, just cross spawns). That alone makes the map really appealing to me, though it depends to see how it looks in action to see if it works out well.
There was a map called Waystation which did it in the past, and in general what I believe is the consensus amongst zerg/terran pros is that the map's spawn situation was garbage. It was clearly overpowered for T in close and for Z in cross - this would most likely still hold true today. That's why I'm generally against maps like Asphodel, because it's better to have for example an Abyssal Reef and an AsphodelOnlyOneSpawnScenario side by side in a 7map pool, rather than a map that can play out differently depending on spawn situation paired with a 4player map or something.
All the positives from the "variety factor" can be created by having a 2p map pool that doesn't suck. A 2 in 1-map seems like a good idea on paper, but I'd say there are no downsides to just having two maps instead. Having 'game outcomes change' because of a certain spawn being active or not is generally not healthy for competition and is one of the reasons why I never liked having Waystation and 4 player maps in the map pool.
That being said, this map offends way less than Whirlwind, Frost, Cactus Valley, Honorgrounds, and Waystation could ever do because the 2 spawns are kinda similar in rush distance. That aside, I'd take two maps based off of each spawn situation maybe with different aesthetics over a 2in1-map any day.
edit: i just wanna end on a positive note and say that i like the map! just think that 2in1 should be avoided for competition, similar to 4p/3p maps with spawn/symmetry problems
On September 01 2017 06:43 Avexyli wrote: 2 in 1 has been done quite a few times in other unique ways, unfortunately most of them aren't seen or played.
2 in 1, like 4p maps however, are kind of an excuse to not have to create unique corners for a map.
Agreed and agreed. I'm not the biggest fan of 4p or 2n1 maps because of all of this (and I've been bitching about 4p in particular for years). But if blizzard still wants them for some reason, then it's good someone is making them rather than blizzard injecting their own abominations into the pool
The irony.. just finished a 2n1 map as well for the "Other" category. Idea here is to create two *drastically* unique forced cross-spawn setups in one map. One spawn is rush the other is more standard/macro with a pocket natural.
It's called Specula City if you want to check it out in custom. Still need to work on it a bit... but here's a pic of the spawn setups:
As a casual player, the 2-in-1 maps are fun. If the difference between the maps are big, the fun factor is big. The downside is that a big difference is horrendous for competitive play. Since the ladder is used by both casuals and the competitive players, those kinds of maps shouldn't be there. That is my opinion.
The cons of 2-in-1's mentioned so far are in the context of random spawns and not forced symmetrical cross-spawns, correct? I completely agree with random spawning and obvious balance issues, but forced cross-spawns it's literally 2 balanced maps in one - both players are playing symmetrically the entire game regardless of spawn positions in this case ( see previous post :3 )
On September 01 2017 16:35 themusic246 wrote: The cons of 2-in-1's mentioned so far are in the context of random spawns and not forced symmetrical cross-spawns, correct? I completely agree with random spawning and obvious balance issues, but forced cross-spawns it's literally 2 balanced maps in one - both players are playing symmetrically the entire game regardless of spawn positions in this case ( see previous post :3 )
Well, a big issue is having BOTH spawns be balanced for all matchups. That's a really tall task. At least if you split the ideas into two normal maps, then if one setup is balanced and good then yayy you have a good map. In the 2n1 scenario, even if one setup proves good, if the other is bad then you have to throw it out or try to hotfix for a solution. So you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(Of course, I'm not saying don't make the map you want to make If someone can make an amazing 4p or 2n1 then have at it. Good to keep an open mind with things even if you initially suspect it won't work.)
On September 01 2017 16:35 themusic246 wrote: The cons of 2-in-1's mentioned so far are in the context of random spawns and not forced symmetrical cross-spawns, correct? I completely agree with random spawning and obvious balance issues, but forced cross-spawns it's literally 2 balanced maps in one - both players are playing symmetrically the entire game regardless of spawn positions in this case ( see previous post :3 )
Well, a big issue is having BOTH spawns be balanced for all matchups. That's a really tall task. At least if you split the ideas into two normal maps, then if one setup is balanced and good then yayy you have a good map. In the 2n1 scenario, even if one setup proves good, if the other is bad then you have to throw it out or try to hotfix for a solution. So you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(Of course, I'm not saying don't make the map you want to make If someone can make an amazing 4p or 2n1 then have at it. Good to keep an open mind with things even if you initially suspect it won't work.)
i think a balanced 2 in 1 could easily be achieved if you just make a super standard map that happens to have 2 sets of spawns (although in that case, the spawns will probably play similarly enough that having 2 of them isn't really necessary...)
the real problem with waystation is that it just has 2 bad layouts, not that the 2 in 1 concept in general is bad.
I don't see how 2 in 1 can theoretically NOT be a bad concept compared to having 2p maps, aside from artificially expanding the map pool beyond 7 maps ><
On September 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Snute wrote: I don't see how 2 in 1 can theoretically NOT be a bad concept compared to having 2p maps, aside from artificially expanding the map pool beyond 7 maps ><
There isn't anything inherently bad about two maps in one if you succeed in making two good maps that fit together. Additionally it'll probably give a slightly different sort of map than normal two player maps, a case of restriction forcing creativity or something along those lines.
Of course in practice the restriction of having multiple layouts work is so heavy that people can't manage to make each half as good as a two player map, but that isn't anything that is inherent to 2 in 1 maps.
On September 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Snute wrote: I don't see how 2 in 1 can theoretically NOT be a bad concept compared to having 2p maps, aside from artificially expanding the map pool beyond 7 maps ><
And submitted finally today. Feel free to look back at my previous post a few pages back to see my submissions. I changed up a few things but otherwise should be good to go.
EPT
Waystation which did it in the past, and in general what I believe is the consensus amongst zerg/terran pros is that the map's spawn situation was garbage. It was clearly overpowered for T in close and for Z in cross - this would most likely still hold true today. That's why I'm generally against maps like Asphodel, because it's better to have for example an Abyssal Reef and an AsphodelOnlyOneSpawnScenario side by side in a 7map pool, rather than a map that can play out differently depending on spawn situation paired with a 4player map or something.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b9xxWi9.png)
If someone can make an amazing 4p or 2n1 then have at it. Good to keep an open mind with things even if you initially suspect it won't work.)![[image loading]](http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d514/yke18nalx99kf3zzg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bcc5/q5dlqr9s9jjjibjzg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1StASNe.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Asz6ubj.jpg)
