EPTCommunity Feedback Update - May 4 - Page 2
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
How is that an actual good change using your own logic? You mention it does help mech while not changing units, but why is that even important? Fix ground to air / dependence on air vs air, your change is a bandaid fix | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On May 05 2017 06:19 xTJx wrote: What have this game become? Almost every matchup is about tier 1 units that deal massive damage to workers into mass slow tier 3 units, so boring. What do you consider to be tier 1 units? | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 05 2017 06:26 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean i can see what your change does avilo, but you always point out that mass air vs mass air is not interesting and then you wanna make it simply easier for mech to get to that mass air. How is that an actual good change using your own logic? You mention it does help mech while not changing units, but why is that even important? Fix ground to air / dependence on air vs air, your change is a bandaid fix Vikings only shoot air to air. It's not an issue. Whereas carriers shoot up and down, ravens shoot up and down (seeker+auto). Mass vikings is inherently weak, so allowing it to be more accessible changes nothing badly in terms of balance. | ||
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wiNgiAN
17 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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StraKo
Germany96 Posts
On May 05 2017 07:03 Shield wrote: Blizzard, can you please buff swarm hosts? They're weak at the moment and I think they'll be great for e-sports. Super exciting to watch! I think a buff to movement speed could be a good move ;P | ||
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Exquisite7
34 Posts
On May 05 2017 05:12 avilo wrote: Swarmhosts are also a huge issue right now for mech viability and on the map i made the changes: Swarmhosts are slower off of creep. Swarmhosts remain fast on creep. Swarmhost hp reduced to 120 from 160. Swarmhosts now have the light tag. Swarmhosts are 6 supply. These might seem heavy handed but the unit is really making the game unenjoyable for quite a ton of people, and it's limiting strategic diversity all by itself in terms of mech Terran. Honestly, swarm hosts are a problem in general. Not just against mech. They are simply too cost efficient and have incredibly low risk to use. For the most part, they are ridiculously good against buildings because obviously most buildings cannot get away and cannot fight back. A swarm host player can spawn locusts, kill a few buildings for free to either supply block an opponent, or kill production and then run away to safety. While I think Avilo's opinions on changing them are decent, I think the best way to change them is to make them have more risk. So lowering hp is a decent idea but something like increasing the cast time or "hatching" time (so that they stay in egg form longer) would be better. This will make it so that if your swarm hosts are under fire, you cannot just spawn locusts and get away with minimal losses. The swarm host player would really have to take care of them better. Another idea is to weaken the swarm hosts while they aren't carrying locusts. Maybe they get an armor or health reduction during this time. OR maybe locusts have reduced damage to buildings, so the swarm host player has to decide more carefully on when is the appropriate time to spawn locusts, instead of always being able to get free damage. Really, anything that increases the risk of using their ability would be the right direction. Another place for concern is that the aerial mobility of the locusts should be an upgrade, not necessarily at hive (although it should be tested), but as long as the swarm host player has to invest more into this time wise, the opponent will have more time to react when they scout. And the first waves would have to be targeted at the most defended place (the most recent expansion) As of now, the only way to really play against swarm hosts is to go and attack your opponent asap and in may locations as possible. The longer the game goes on, the more the swarm host player just gets ahead and has enough time to tech to whatever they want. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On May 05 2017 06:16 StraKo wrote: You could honestly say that for A LOT of lotv units :S I cant disagree with that. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 05 2017 06:53 avilo wrote: Vikings only shoot air to air. It's not an issue. Whereas carriers shoot up and down, ravens shoot up and down (seeker+auto). Mass vikings is inherently weak, so allowing it to be more accessible changes nothing badly in terms of balance. The point is that it's bad to promote air vs air to begin with even if mass vikings themselves are not a problem in a vacuum. You still basically will have a big emphasis on whoever wins the air battle which is all about numbers and a few spells here and there and not so much about positioning of air to ground in relation to the map vs ground to air. It would be much better to have a real option presented through the thor or another ground to air unit and not the viking | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
On May 05 2017 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: It would be much better to have a real option presented through the thor or another ground to air unit and not the viking +1 i prefer Terran to have more Ground to Air options. i hope the Thor ends up being an additional option. | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
Look at the Ultralisk and see how a flat-damage change has helped it so much T___T | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Keep up the good work, Blizzard! | ||
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SSMMA
15 Posts
On May 05 2017 05:12 avilo wrote: a) So not fixing or addressing mech anti-air, instead going backwards again b) tempest does not need buffs, all air units in the game need nerfs to prevent turtle/stalemate gameplay/mass air These changes took weeks to come up with? They don't address anything, and they move the game backwards, particularly the tempest change. And mech anti-air is still left in the dust. Mass raven / swarmhost are still in the game. Why is there not a single word about swarmhosts being abusive versus mech? It's been since November 2016 when patch 3.8 came out and swarmhosts became ridiculous to play against for anyone opting for mech play. I love Blizzard games, i love SC2. But it's clear there's no direction from the balance team for a while, or they do not know or understand mech problems enough to propose good solutions to making mech more viable without making it OP. Considering I have played mech since Wings of Liberty Beta almost exclusively over bio, and been Grandmasters playing around 95% mech games versus every race, i would like to sincerely extend my knowledge and expertise to Blizzard if they are willing to work with someone in the community to get some impactful changes into the game. Riot Games commonly consults 1 trick ponies in the LoL community for changes to specific champions, such as when they were thinking about buffing the champion Annie they consulted a well known streamer "Annie Bot" to get his opinions and feedback on what would be good and bad changes in terms of buffs and nerfs. I would love it if Blizzard reached out to me and directly talked with me about some good ideas to implement to help out mech viability, specifically in the department of mech not having any anti-air available. A lot of people know i am running a tournament soon and it will be on an extension mod. I specifically address one core problem for mech viability, being that mech has no AA. The core design change i did was as follows, as well as a few other quality of life changes that allow mech to be more playable without changing much at all with how units operate - just simply the accessibly of anti-air for mech: Vikings can now be produced from factories, reactor factories, and starports. Vikings produced from factories come out in assault mode (ground mode). Vikings produced from starports come out in air mode. Vikings by default can no longer transform between ground and air mode (to prevent early game cheeses vs Z). Armory price reduced to 100/50 from 150/100. Transformation servos upgrade available at the factory tech lab for 50/50, research time 41 seconds. Transformation servos requires an armory to be researched. Transformation servos allows hellions and vikings to transform between modes freely. I have already tested this change across many games, and it's proven to give mech a viable AA option and response to air that already exists in the game without doing any unit statistic changes. The impact of the change means a meching Terran now can react to the opponent's air transition by mass producing vikings from the factories that they already have, essentially giving mech a mass producible anti-air option similar to the goliath. The change also means that a meching Terran is saving around 400-600 vespene gas and potentially 1-2 minutes of build time on starports. The gas saved from not forcing a mech Terran to have to turtle into 5 starports to counter air changes the flow of the game entirely, allowing a mech Terran to now attack more often as well as go past 5 factories and play a true macro game instead of being limited to not going past 5 factories. I would highly encourage Blizzard to consult me about this idea, as i mentioned i have already tested it and will be running a tournament using the change. Many of the players that have played mech with this change were amazed that they had a viable AA option and a true anti-air response from the factory to the opponent massing air units. I've played and streamed this game for 5-6 years now and love the game like everyone here on the forums do, and like i'm sure Blizzard does, but it's clear the changes that are being proposed by blizzard really have little to no impact on helping mech viability, so sincerely again i would hope they will consider consulting with me about changes to help mech viability. Swarmhosts are also a huge issue right now for mech viability and on the map i made the changes: Swarmhosts are slower off of creep. Swarmhosts remain fast on creep. Swarmhost hp reduced to 120 from 160. Swarmhosts now have the light tag. Swarmhosts are 6 supply. These might seem heavy handed but the unit is really making the game unenjoyable for quite a ton of people, and it's limiting strategic diversity all by itself in terms of mech Terran. Also p.s. the original thor flat 12 damage change is also on the mod i made with Darkblizzard (name of the arcade mapmaker/map designer). Blizzard needs to stop being afraid of strategic diversity and letting mech become playable. The thor flat AA change was a really good change. Ground anti-air should be stronger than air units. When you are talking about swamhost being unenjoyable, don't you think mech playstyle is unenjoyable aswell ? Maybe you have fun massing ur mech army on 3 base behind a wall of turets, but's it's far from being fun on the other side, whatever the race is. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2654 Posts
On May 05 2017 08:19 Kafka777 wrote: Thor change could be ok. However mech is not used not because it is underpowered but coz bio is overpowered, in fact a logical step would be to nerf mules as their role has changed in lotv compared to the initial idea where less expantions were made.. Tempest - good change, no question about it. You do know MULEs where nerfed at the beginning of LotV right? I hope blizzard tries to instead of changing, or maybe along, the thor to try buffing the cyclone AA. Thors are expensive, slow and clunky, cyclones actually allow you to attack and not be stuck inside your base, | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
Part 1 Rant: I am a simple plebeian of Starcraft. I still like Starcraft 2 and it pains me to see these balance updates that contain limited vision and a total lack of guts (They haven’t deleted or added a single unit thus far in Lotv). Another grossly apparant lack of guts is that Blizzard doesn’t announce if they think the game is okay as it is. Neither does blizzard tell the community If they actually care about the concept of underused units or not. It’s fine for dead weight units to be in the game and it’s fine if Blizzard tells us they intend to keep them that way. (Moba’s have a bunch of champions that are worthless, fighting games have F tier characters and S Tier and Broodwar has the scout). Where does Blizz stand? For example, it’d be nice to know If they share the view that mech is shit gameplay like some players and TL users do. If so they should just come out and say it. Seriously what is their vision For discussion of balance between the community and Blizzard it’d be nice if we atleast knew what the hell Blizzard wants (Just 50/50/50 winrates at top lvl? A fun game? A lot of playstyles?). What hill beyond the horizon are they aiming for? Do they even care at all at this point? I’m quite skeptical about how much Blizzard cares. Even the co-op maps that give them indirect revenue are all (was there maybe 1 exception?) recycled from the campaign. Part 2: Ideas . The balance team should make gimmicky units like the swarmhost (and the raven) ''exciting'' by limiting the amount of swarm hosts that can be active on the map (in TvZ) to a number like 8 and subsequently balance them around that number. It would fit the guerilla image of swarmhosts a lot more too. This way the unit could stay in the game without hardcountering everything that comes out of a factory once you have like 20. We can all agree that we wouldn't like it if Mech, Bio, or ling/bling muta gets countered by a single unit (Idra would say that the marine was that one unit). To play devil's advocate - But that's such lame and inelegant game design! Yes, yes it is. Just like the entire mothership core and pylon overcharge gimmick. The fact that pylon overcharge works even when not near a nexus ermargherd. I don’t hear anyone complaining about pylon overcharge saving their base and their PvT’s from cyclone reactor rushes which would end the game in 3 minutes. Arbitrary numbers of units obviously only work given a constrained number of variables. Therefore please consider balancing per matchup Blizz. Unless ofcourse your clairvoyance and grand design is of such splendor that the reprecussions of buffs like the corruptor speed buff and the baneling health buff for the metagame of other matchups (PvT and ZvP) were all according to plan. Which I for one atleast doubt. For as conservative as Blizzard has proven themselves to be with balancing, I find it ironic that changes that they do make make to band-aid a specific matchup are changing the metagame of others. We are currently experiencing the adept nerf that was mostly meant to stop phoenix adept in PvT (right?) cause quite some losses for protoss in ZvP. After the nerf adepts are being made less in ZvP which invites zergs to go for ling/bling hydra. Personally I think this is all fine (fuck adepts) but we can’t deny a clear metagame shift in the ZvP matchup. | ||
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
I also agree with the swarmhost needing a nerf. Currently it is just way to powerful verse mech play. Double stacking a buff with decreased cost and increasing the swoop distance makes it impossible to shoot them out of the air before they jump on the army and in very large numbers early in the game. Changing 1 of these things if not both would help a bit. Though I doubt changing the swooping distance would make much of a change due to the thors clunky air attack and liberator anti air nerf. I think a cost change, redesign, or speed nerf is needed. tbh there are many ways to go about changing the swarmhost that would be appealing. | ||
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