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On May 15 2017 08:29 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
And because of that protoss is very hard to balance without relying on gimmicks. If the adept was stronger in a frontal fight but saw his shade hugely nerfed, this issue would be solved. however they nerf the Adept or buff teh Zealot... i'd just like to see Blizzard adjust the unit(s) so that we see more Zealots than Adepts.
I don't mind adepts being the standard gate unit against bio (since it's designed to murder marines).
But if mech was reasonably viable against toss, we'd see zealots all the time.
Just sayin'.
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On May 15 2017 04:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2017 07:05 Foxxan wrote:
So do you considder blink a good ability overall or good if we compare it to other abilties in sc2? Just curious. it's exactly like this in my mind, blink is one of the better abilities in SC2 but it's actually not a good ability for the reasons you mentioned, that's why I don't play SC2. If the stalker didn't have blink it would be a much more interesting unit involving much more micro, tactics and ultimately strategy.
Do you really think it could be that much more interesting as just a slightly buffed mover and shooter without any other abilities?
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On May 15 2017 07:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote: tbh you're one of the only posters on here who legitimately pisses me off.
its not my job to anticipate what your emotional responses may or may not be to my posts. Show nested quote +On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote:
I said that the Stalker is a good example of a unit that is held back from good balance by having a strong activated ability instead of just good raw stats.
you're splitting hairs. its had that ability since 2007 and they've decided to balance it with that strong activated ability since 2007. that unit has been through Pardo, Browder, Kim and not the new Lead Multiplayer Designer "The Masked Superstar". i don't see it changing. if they remove Blink and buff the Stalker's stats it becomes a Dragoon with a new skin. Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 00:10 MockHamill wrote:
Thors are currently useless in TvT and TvP but balanced in TvZ. Increasing Thor armour by 1 make them better vs zerglings but they will still not do their job vs air units in TvT and TvP.
it'll help the Thor against Marines and it'll shave 2 damage off of Zealots because they use 2 psi blade strikes of 8 damage each. so the buff helps the Thor against all 3 races "most primitive" units.
Okay fair enough, I'll just say it outright, I think Stalkers have been phased out of the meta pretty substantially and now with the super Hydralisk I generally look at Stalker compositions as easy wins, I feel like if they did maybe a tad bit more damage to light units they could fight bio and hydras a little better, and of course defend a bit more reliably vs the Mutalisk.
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On May 15 2017 09:04 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 07:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote: tbh you're one of the only posters on here who legitimately pisses me off.
its not my job to anticipate what your emotional responses may or may not be to my posts. On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote:
I said that the Stalker is a good example of a unit that is held back from good balance by having a strong activated ability instead of just good raw stats.
you're splitting hairs. its had that ability since 2007 and they've decided to balance it with that strong activated ability since 2007. that unit has been through Pardo, Browder, Kim and not the new Lead Multiplayer Designer "The Masked Superstar". i don't see it changing. if they remove Blink and buff the Stalker's stats it becomes a Dragoon with a new skin. On May 15 2017 00:10 MockHamill wrote:
Thors are currently useless in TvT and TvP but balanced in TvZ. Increasing Thor armour by 1 make them better vs zerglings but they will still not do their job vs air units in TvT and TvP.
it'll help the Thor against Marines and it'll shave 2 damage off of Zealots because they use 2 psi blade strikes of 8 damage each. so the buff helps the Thor against all 3 races "most primitive" units. Okay fair enough, I'll just say it outright, I think Stalkers have been phased out of the meta pretty substantially and now with the super Hydralisk I generally look at Stalker compositions as easy wins, I feel like if they did maybe a tad bit more damage to light units they could fight bio and hydras a little better, and of course defend a bit more reliably vs the Mutalisk.
it's not hydras taking stalkers out of the meta lol, there's no reason to waste money on them when you can make adepts.
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On May 15 2017 09:04 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 07:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote: tbh you're one of the only posters on here who legitimately pisses me off.
its not my job to anticipate what your emotional responses may or may not be to my posts. On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote:
I said that the Stalker is a good example of a unit that is held back from good balance by having a strong activated ability instead of just good raw stats.
you're splitting hairs. its had that ability since 2007 and they've decided to balance it with that strong activated ability since 2007. that unit has been through Pardo, Browder, Kim and not the new Lead Multiplayer Designer "The Masked Superstar". i don't see it changing. if they remove Blink and buff the Stalker's stats it becomes a Dragoon with a new skin. On May 15 2017 00:10 MockHamill wrote:
Thors are currently useless in TvT and TvP but balanced in TvZ. Increasing Thor armour by 1 make them better vs zerglings but they will still not do their job vs air units in TvT and TvP.
it'll help the Thor against Marines and it'll shave 2 damage off of Zealots because they use 2 psi blade strikes of 8 damage each. so the buff helps the Thor against all 3 races "most primitive" units. Okay fair enough, I'll just say it outright, I think Stalkers have been phased out of the meta pretty substantially and now with the super Hydralisk I generally look at Stalker compositions as easy wins, I feel like if they did maybe a tad bit more damage to light units they could fight bio and hydras a little better, and of course defend a bit more reliably vs the Mutalisk.
yep good point. i'd just prefer to see basic straightforward units used more. Stalkers, Zealots, Marines, Marauders, Zerglings, Hydralisks.
if they buff the Stalker i'm all for nerfing some Protoss air units.
at the start of LotV there was far too much air play for my taste. at this point, i think air play is only a slight bit too frequent. the 1 reason i am tolerant of air play from Protoss is that its supposed to be the most technogically advanced race; a high powered air force is congruent with my fantasy of what "most technologically advanced" is.
i get this perspective from playing my Diamond 1v1 games on NA Ladder and watching the GSL.
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I'm still seeing too many drones, marines and adepts. Everytime, everywhere, all weeks, all months, years. Come on, do something.
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On May 15 2017 09:48 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I'm still seeing too many drones,
i prefer teh C&C style of economy where there are only a very few # of worker units collecting resources.
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On May 15 2017 08:43 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 04:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On May 14 2017 07:05 Foxxan wrote:
So do you considder blink a good ability overall or good if we compare it to other abilties in sc2? Just curious. it's exactly like this in my mind, blink is one of the better abilities in SC2 but it's actually not a good ability for the reasons you mentioned, that's why I don't play SC2. If the stalker didn't have blink it would be a much more interesting unit involving much more micro, tactics and ultimately strategy. Do you really think it could be that much more interesting as just a slightly buffed mover and shooter without any other abilities?
if the other units didn't have very strong abilities too, yes. If you play bw, I think you know. It depends on every other thing in the game, but the blink stalker ultimately makes a lot converge into using the blink and making a timing on the blink tech, rest of time not so much micro. And using blink is often binary. I know in WoL, the best micro was the very early game, for example in PvT, the best micro was when marauders didn't have concussive shells yet and the stalkers didn't have blink yet, then there were nice micro moves. After that it was more ability spam or binary moves. I know its a little more complicated than that, but in few words..
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let's say the context was different, I think a unit like the blink stalker could be interesting, if the base unit was a bit stronger on the field and blink on something of a longer cooldown, or something like that. But in the game now I think it's rly meh, bw dragoon is a much much more interesting unit imo (and zealot too compared to sc2 zealot for a similar reason), it is almost a whole dimension better :/
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On May 15 2017 09:18 91matt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2017 09:04 jpg06051992 wrote:On May 15 2017 07:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote: tbh you're one of the only posters on here who legitimately pisses me off.
its not my job to anticipate what your emotional responses may or may not be to my posts. On May 14 2017 04:52 jpg06051992 wrote:
I said that the Stalker is a good example of a unit that is held back from good balance by having a strong activated ability instead of just good raw stats.
you're splitting hairs. its had that ability since 2007 and they've decided to balance it with that strong activated ability since 2007. that unit has been through Pardo, Browder, Kim and not the new Lead Multiplayer Designer "The Masked Superstar". i don't see it changing. if they remove Blink and buff the Stalker's stats it becomes a Dragoon with a new skin. On May 15 2017 00:10 MockHamill wrote:
Thors are currently useless in TvT and TvP but balanced in TvZ. Increasing Thor armour by 1 make them better vs zerglings but they will still not do their job vs air units in TvT and TvP.
it'll help the Thor against Marines and it'll shave 2 damage off of Zealots because they use 2 psi blade strikes of 8 damage each. so the buff helps the Thor against all 3 races "most primitive" units. Okay fair enough, I'll just say it outright, I think Stalkers have been phased out of the meta pretty substantially and now with the super Hydralisk I generally look at Stalker compositions as easy wins, I feel like if they did maybe a tad bit more damage to light units they could fight bio and hydras a little better, and of course defend a bit more reliably vs the Mutalisk. it's not hydras taking stalkers out of the meta lol, there's no reason to waste money on them when you can make adepts.
Ordinarily I would agree with this, but I think it's more like, why waste money on them when you can build anything else?
New Hydralisks absolutely murders Stalkers and bio still mows them down as hard as ever, buffing the Stalker would have been overwhelming back in the day but I see no real reason that the Stalker shouldn't get say, +2 dmg to light units baseline.
If they did just little more damage they it might open up the doorway for a further Adept nerf as well, Gateway units have a big power disparity problem, and by that I mean Zealots and Stalkers both suck without their upgrades and Adepts are awesome right out of the gate.
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Agree with prometheus, the stalkers ability feels "binary" to decsribe it fast.
The stalker vs marauder in wol was cool and fun in the start of the game. I was looking forward to hots because i thought blizzard would "fix" the openings, making them more interesting like that.
The gameplay is supposed to start early, not after 10min ~
Same with lotv, i thought that hey, perhaps they want micro vs micro now. So they add cyclone and iam using my positive brain. Okay, so this unit feels very strong versus protoss. It also blocks oracle opening with a tempo.
Thought they might make blink/charge earlier, and also redesign them. Then we would have a micro dynamic of those units vs the cyclone and it would start early aswell.
Instead nothing happened about that. Cyclone was a unit that shouldnt come to the game actually. It didnt add much.
Also in hots, they added mscore. So they blocked some openings such as marauders... Instead of making the early game interesting and dynamic they went the opposite pretty much.
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When they released the game its a complete disaster for terran players who dont want to play only bio competitive and also for the other two races who have to play against mass liberators in everey game against terran.
Terran gameplay is designed around Bio. You have to build marines and medivacs in everey matchup if you want to play competitive. In broodwar terran had the option to go mech in everey matchup. Now its not possible to play it in any matchup. I know there are terrans who like to play bio. Thats absolutly ok but there has to be room for other playstyles for terrans in competitive gaming.
And for the last time. Nobody wants to have turtle mech. We had an agressive style with cyclone hellion in the beta of Lotv. But Blizzard nerved it into the ground. Give us an opportunity to play mech competitive.
Everey other race has different playstyles here a the examples:
Zerg: Ling Baneling Muta, Roach Ravager, Roach Hydra Lurker, Ultra Ling, Broodlord Corrupter roach
Protoss: Many different Gateway styles, Robo centric styles, Skytoss
Terran: 90% Bio + X. This is a big problem its not fun to play and to watch in everey game where terran is involved to see the same bio style again and again and again!
Protoss in general
Protoss should get a complete redesign. Look at the protoss from broodwar there were so much fun interacting with the other races and micro involved. Now in most games the protoss defends and trys to get his deathball ready for the final blow, unfun to play and to watch (mass Adepts in everey game or lategame bullshit air armies)!
Terran has no lategame and many useless units
As Terran you have to win against Zerg or Protoss in midgame. Its nearly impossible for terran to win in lategame.
I know that protoss and zerg have a hard mid game (which is also a problem). But its not ok that terran has absolutly no really options in lategame.
Thor: Garbage (is only really viable against mutas and a boring unit)
The swarm host problem
Blizzard said they want to make mech viable with the big patch after last Blizzcon. With the swarmhost they killed mech against zerg entirely. This unit needs a complete redesign. Zerg has enough options against mech like vipers Ultras and a very mobile playstyle in general.
Game is to much designed around air units
There are air units which are ok. These are the light units like banshee viking, Mutas and Phoenix.
Units like Liberators, Raven, Tempest, Carrier are too good. This leeds to mass air battles which are not fun to play and to watch. The focus should be on ground units for all races (ground battles are more strategical and more fun to watch). Zerg Tier 3 air Units are also a problem because you cant counter them with ground units if zerg Plays smart (at least as terran...) air units should be more niche!
Why did the Raven get a buff? Its a support unit and should not be massable in lategame!
The game needs really strong ground to air units fo rall 3 races to counter mass Tier 3 air units which are cancer for the game!
Blizzard to something and patch your game more often and try constant changes!
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On May 15 2017 18:58 AlphaAeffchen wrote:
Protoss in general
Protoss should get a complete redesign.
I don't understand why people keep asking for this. Bliz is not going to redesign a race after 7 years of keeping it the way that it is.
There could be tweaks, but asking for a redesign is unrealistic.
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Balance changes are finalized.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20754895959
All the changes from the community feedback updates and the testing matchmaker are going live next week.
There is a discrepancy with their Thor numbers though.
In the Call to Action post, it's:
-Thor morph times reduced from 3.5 to 2.5. Thor morph random delay durations reduced from 0.5 to 0.25.
In the final update, it's:
-Thor morph times reduced from 2.5 to 1.79. Thor morph random delay durations reduced from 0.36 to 0.18.
This might be due to Blizzard time.
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I like the armor change on thor and am a bit terrified of cheaper charge in PvZ.
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i just copy pasted the whole thing.
Balance Update
Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the proposed changes. We really appreciated all of the thoughtful discussion! After reading over the feedback, we are preparing to implement the balance changes that have been on the testing matchmaking queue.
Terran
Thor
Thor armor was increased from 1 to 2.
Thor morph times reduced from 2.5 to 1.79. Thor morph random delay durations reduced from 0.36 to 0.18.
Raven
Auto-Turret damage reduced from 24 to 18.
Auto-Turret duration increased from 7.14 to 10.
Protoss
Tempest
Kinetic Overload damage increased from 30 (+14 massive) to 30 (+22 massive).
Void Ray
Prismatic Alignment slows the Void Ray by 40% while active.
Zealot
Charge upgrade cost lowered from 200/200 to 100/100.
Zerg
Roach & Infestor
Undetected burrow move visual effects should be more visible.
Currently, we are planning for these changes to go live next week in the upcoming 3.14 patch. As always, we welcome your thoughts and feedback!
Glad to see Blizzard making Zealots make more sense by lowering the cost of a Zealot upgrade. I like Zealots. I don't like Adepts.
Glad to see a Terran ground unit getting buffed and a Terran air unit with magic spells getting nerfed.
I don't care either way about the Tempest Buff and i like the change to the Void Ray.
all-in-all a nice balance patch and i felt like my tiny voice, that covers a small subsection of the player base, was heard.
i will voice my approval by giving Blizzard/SC2 more money in the next few months.
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The good:
All the changes are a step in the right direction.
The bad:
Thors will still have no role in TvT and TvP. They are not good enough vs air to be useful and they still get hard countered by liberators, BCs, void rays, immortals etc.
TvZ Mech will still only be viable if the Zerg player forgets to build Swarm Hosts.
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On May 15 2017 18:58 AlphaAeffchen wrote:
In broodwar terran had the option to go mech in everey matchup.
In BW you must go mech in every matchup but vs Z, where there are some bio builds availabe. In SC2 you can mech vs Z, you need to bio in anything else.
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To stay on the positive side for a bit:
Void prism slowing down after ability use, i think this is a good sign in the "new" direction of the design team after david kim left.
Thor change: Atleast they went a direction now, more armor+faster transform time=encouraged to use in direct combat(?)
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On May 16 2017 07:18 Foxxan wrote:
To stay on the positive side for a bit:
Void prism slowing down after ability use, i think this is a good sign in the "new" direction of the design team after david kim left.
Thor change: Atleast they went a direction now, more armor+faster transform time=encouraged to use in direct combat(?)
Might I inquire what the thought process was behind the void ray slowing down? I missed that. They'll be worse against vikings, is that the idea of it? So that the various protoss early game attacks vs terran are slightly weaker? Also what ''new direction''?
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EPT
