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France13023 Posts
On April 03 2017 01:10 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 00:59 DieuCure wrote:
Ye the game is harder now, you cant do 0 mistake.
Sad that we didnt see Life, it would hve been be a good thing to compare each lvl; a good base the little Life did get to play LotV, he got manhandled in ZvT  e: happy bday, Alchemik
To be fair Life was also shit at times in HotS as well iirc.
TY got beaten by FireCake at the first Dreamhack of LotV, etc...
Doesn't mean much, you can hit rock bottom for a few bo3 at the beginning of a patch / game!
As for ByuN vs Dark against Life vs TaeJa, we already had the debate during Blizzcon and there is no conclusive evidence since it's really subjective.
Their (Scarlett and MajOr) bracket was kinda easy indeed but it's not really their fault, a lot of brackets were easy because there aren't a lot of pros anymore, and it's equally easy to be eliminated by seemingly "easy" opponents in a bo3, especially in such a stressful format (lot of computers close together, so you don't get much space).
Seeing a foreigner terran compete in the GSL will be interesting! MajOr performs really well on the KR ladder if he doesn't share his account with a korean terran, so we might see him and Scarlett qualify for ro16.
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On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior.
What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions?
It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day.
"Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS.
The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc.
So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map.
Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense.
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A lot of peple are saying Scarlett and Major's brackets were easy, but when you look at the results a lot of players had easy brackets:
aLive had to beat Noregret and Armani
Maru had to beat Alicia and Hush
Byul played Leifeng and Nightmare
Rogue only had to beat Speed twice
Byun only faced Arclite and Keen
The scene has shrunk to the point where Code A got cancelled because complete amateurs would qualify. There are just so few mid and low-tier players in Korea that every bracket is easy for the top players.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense.
You're the only one who thinks HotS PvP had strategic depth. It was complete garbage that came down to colossus deathballs headbutting. While some match-ups definitely got worse with LotV (most notably TvT) PvP ain't one of them.
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SC2 scene is too small right now, all great players gone which makes even foreigners qualify Code S. Amazing.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense. You're the only one who thinks HotS PvP had strategic depth. It was complete garbage that came down to colossus deathballs headbutting. While some match-ups definitely got worse with LotV (most notably TvT) PvP ain't one of them.
Opinions. Early game PvP alone had more strategical options than pretty much all of LotV does.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:07 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 04:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense. You're the only one who thinks HotS PvP had strategic depth. It was complete garbage that came down to colossus deathballs headbutting. While some match-ups definitely got worse with LotV (most notably TvT) PvP ain't one of them. Opinions. Early game PvP alone had more strategical options than pretty much all of LotV does.
You should stick to more reasonable opinions like HerO being ten times the player Impact is.
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Geez guys, do some of you even have an ounce of enjoyment left?
Code S looks good!
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France13023 Posts
On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense.
? There was more multitask in the ByuN game. There were actually a lot of counter attacks, and since ByuN had to drop he had to pick off before banelings hits, as well as controlling main army.
He also had to unburrow mines a lot of times (don't remember if there were liberators to set up, maybe a bit?).
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 04:07 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 04:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense. You're the only one who thinks HotS PvP had strategic depth. It was complete garbage that came down to colossus deathballs headbutting. While some match-ups definitely got worse with LotV (most notably TvT) PvP ain't one of them. Opinions. Early game PvP alone had more strategical options than pretty much all of LotV does. You should stick to more reasonable opinions like HerO being ten times the player Impact is.
Both are historically correct!
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On April 03 2017 04:10 lechatnoir wrote:
Geez guys, do some of you even have an ounce of enjoyment left?
I do.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:12 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense. ? There was more multitask in the ByuN game. There were actually a lot of counter attacks, and since ByuN had to drop he had to pick off before banelings hits, as well as controlling main army. He also had to unburrow mines a lot of times (don't remember if there were liberators to set up, maybe a bit?).
That's just plain wrong, all of it. There were early bane drops, that's it. The next counterattack happened about 20 minutes later and ended the game because Byun couldn't deal with it.
You're literally trying to tell me that microing against ling/bane with the same MMMM army is harder than trying to micro against ling/bane/muta. At that point I stop debating.
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On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense.
Don't agree. ByuN suffered a lot in that game to ling counterattacks. If Dark had mutas it would have been a similar result, except that wasn't meta at the time. ByuN had to micro against lingbane and ultras (which at the time where immortal) true. Did taeja have to do more? maybe I'll give you that. But that's just how the games played out. Dark made way more lings/banes/corruptors for Byun than Life made for Taeja. The only difference was Taeja faced mutas and not ultras
And besides that's only one game, to say it's at all indicative of the general meta or skill level is ludacris. I could probably go back to 2014 and find some crappy games between top players somewhere and compare them to better games now. If you compare the blizzcon 2014 and 2016 finals, the latter was certainly a better display of skill from both races.
That leads to another dicsussion of what makes a game "one of the GOATS". A "good game" to watch isn't necessarily the one where players show the most skill at everything (it tends to be but not always). Neither Scarlett or Bomber where the best players in the world, yet that Habitation set is considered by some to be THE best game ever. They both barely did more than one thing at once tbh. Yet the game was "good" because of how close it was and scarlett doing a couple of super smart plays.
Thats side tracking anyway, but in general I 100% believe that LoTV is harder to play than HoTS. There's no room for error and you have to be aware of a lot more, especially when it comes to harras (and given that you expand faster it becomes much more stressful). And I think the level of play we've seen from (some of the) guys now, albeit more inconsistent than in HoTS, does live up to it
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The question going forward will be how far Scarlett and/or Major can make it in GSL. It's been pointed out several times that the skill level for low-mid tier Koreans has dropped off, but that means that GSL gets very difficult very quickly because all of those players are rapidly eliminated.
In the Ro32 there are usually pretty clear favorites to advance. In the Ro16 less so, and by the Ro8 just about everyone has already been a premier-league champion. I don't really think foreigners in the Ro32 says all that much when the skill gap between the top players and everyone else has grown so huge.
GSL is obviously still the toughest and most prestigious tournament around, but both it and the entire Korean scene have gotten pretty top-heavy as of late. Winning the GSL might be as hard as it ever was; qualifying is not.
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On April 03 2017 04:31 pvsnp wrote:
The question going forward will be how far Scarlett and/or Major can make it in GSL. It's been pointed out several times that the skill level for low-mid tier Koreans has dropped off, but that means that GSL gets very difficult very quickly because all of those players are rapidly eliminated.
In the Ro32 there are usually pretty clear favorites to advance. In the Ro16 less so, and by the Ro8 just about everyone has already been a premier-league champion. I don't really think foreigners in the Ro32 says all that much when the skill gap between the top players and everyone else has grown so huge.
GSL is obviously still the toughest and most prestigious tournament around, but both it and the entire Korean scene have gotten pretty top-heavy as of late.
I do sort of wonder if that's inevitable for eSports.
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France13023 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:14 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2017 04:12 Poopi wrote:On April 03 2017 03:43 Olli wrote:On April 03 2017 03:34 Fango wrote:On April 02 2017 23:50 Olli wrote:
Besides, I rounded up some numbers a while ago about that Byun vs Dark game on KSS that people called one of the best ever, and they didn't hold up to the Life vs Taeja game on the same map 2 years prior. What numbers? Can you really judge the skill level of top players based of in game stats from different expansions? It's worth noting that any long back and forth/"down to the last units" type of game in a blizzcon final will get people saying its one of the GOATS. Although imo it was still a really great game. And overall I would rather watch ByuN vs Dark than Life vs MMA finals any day. "Did players get worse or did the game just get harder?" is a discussion. I think that Dark/Inno/TY/Stats right now and as good as Inno is 2013, zest in 2014, life in 2014/15 etc. But making no mistakes in LoTV is way more demanding than in HoTS. The "way more demanding" argument that people make is exactly what I looked at, because it's a misconception that everything is harder now. If you look at the TvZ ByuN played against Dark on KSS for example, all he had to do was micro against ling/bane, because mutas weren't a thing at that point in LotV. He had no counterattacks to worry about, no mutas killing his medivacs and making fights more difficult, etc. So what exactly is more difficult here? Compare that to Taeja vs Life from BlizzCon 2014. Bio is still controlled exactly the way it used to be. Macro still works the same way as far as difficulty goes. Everything functions the same way, only that ByuN actually had far less to do than Taeja did, because there were no mutalisks on the map. Some matchups are harder mechanically now, sure. PvP for example, although it's lost a ton of strategic depth for it. But the idea that everything is much harder now and that players are automatically better now because of it is absolute nonsense. ? There was more multitask in the ByuN game. There were actually a lot of counter attacks, and since ByuN had to drop he had to pick off before banelings hits, as well as controlling main army. He also had to unburrow mines a lot of times (don't remember if there were liberators to set up, maybe a bit?). That's just plain wrong, all of it. There were early bane drops, that's it. The next counterattack happened about 20 minutes later and ended the game because Byun couldn't deal with it. You're literally trying to tell me that microing against ling/bane with the same MMMM army is harder than trying to micro against ling/bane/muta. At that point I stop debating.
If KSS is the snow map there were ultras not only ling/bane.
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On April 03 2017 01:00 KappaKingPrime wrote:
Beating retired players to qualify isn't very impressive, well good luck to them anyway.
That's what all the Koreans did too.
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I do sort of wonder if that's inevitable for eSports.
I wouldn't say inevitable, since the KeSPA team environment fostered a fairly cyclic population where you had younger amateurs practicing with the best and improving while older pros gradually retired. It wasn't a perfect system because there was less and less new blood as Starcraft lost popularity and the player population shrank (vicious cycle), but it more or less worked.
Now that all of those teams have disbanded though, the situation for little-known amateurs and newcomers is really tough. I remember watching an interview (of Classic maybe?) where they were talking how the top-tier players are mostly alright but the second-tier ones are suffering.
For instance, if soO wants to practice his ZvT he can just call Inno and be like "Yo, you want to play some custom games?" Most of the guys at the top know each other very well (since they've all been competing with each other for years and years) so it's not at all hard for them to find good practice partners. But the ones lower on the food chain are hard out of luck since teamhouse trainees can't practice with teamhouse aces when there isn't a teamhouse.
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EPT
