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On March 16 2017 11:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2017 11:03 munch wrote:On March 16 2017 10:58 lestye wrote:On March 16 2017 06:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 06:26 Elentos wrote:On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
(because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably) Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be? Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion  It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments. so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
Yes, context is everything. Taeja cared more for weekenders, KeSPA Koreans cared more for Starleagues (whilst also juggling Proleague - team orders yo!). Now, the conservative view would be that Taeja vs KeSPA Koreans are incomparable, since they are fighting on different streams. But I would argue that the latter's achievements matter more, since the Starleague stream is more stacked and tightly fought (and by 'stacked', I mean in terms of player motivation, preparation, focus, etc. - not just raw numbers of top tier players*).
That's just my subjective view of things. (I'm on Red Viper's side on this, just to be clear.)
* An analogy would be the Europa League. It has lots of good teams all over Europe (granted, the top ones are in the Champions League). By raw numbers alone, it is more 'stacked' than a national league, like even the EPL. But most clubs tend to field B-teams instead. There's more money and glory in their national leagues, and that's where their focus is at. And I'm sure most English clubs would rather win the EPL than the Europa League, if given a choice.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On March 16 2017 11:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2017 11:03 munch wrote:On March 16 2017 10:58 lestye wrote:On March 16 2017 06:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 06:26 Elentos wrote:On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
(because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably) Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be? Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments. so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013?
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For me the Life vs TaeJa rivalry is still the highest level rivalry we've ever had. So it's really hard for me to just throw DH's and IEM's out of the window like many suggest. Life is easily the GOAT and Dark doesn't have much on SoO in terms of achievements, but I do think his level of play is higher atm than SoO's.
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Austria24417 Posts
soO in 2014 was incredible though. Dark never reached that level. Peak performance should be taken into account as well.
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Germany15880 Posts
Dark has a starleague win. soO doesn't.
At the very least they are extremely close although soO's 5th GSL finals appearance probably puts him slightly ahead.
Also the majority of Dark's achievements were in an era where Zerg was garbage so that should give him some bonus points.
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This was an awesome matchup, but I'm surprised nobody is talking about the quarterfinals with regard to how well soO is playing. sOs is not exactly at the top of his game right now, but TY absolutely is. The way soO turned that series around was amazing, and I'm really impressed with how he was able to move from very aggressive play in some of those games to the more deliberate defensive macro style he showed against sOs. Dude is playing out of his mind in this tournament, so the finals should be spectacular no matter what happens.
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On March 16 2017 16:37 munch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2017 11:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 11:03 munch wrote:On March 16 2017 10:58 lestye wrote:On March 16 2017 06:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 06:26 Elentos wrote:On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
(because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably) Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be? Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments. so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet. You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013?
I didn't say that. I specificially mentioned that "yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship".
My point is that the whole talent pool of that tournament was still nowhere near the lvl of a code S where pretty much every single top player at that moment wants to participate. That means that the whole lvl of competition is a lot more fierce.
In your example the code s before had 8 totally different players in the top 8 (soulkey, soO, Rain, etc). I assume that if we take the same talent pool of code s and let them all play in these weekend tournaments that it changes pretty much everything. While there are a few players like Taeja and maybe Polt which would change code s as well it's negligible in comparison. That's the main point. The talent pools participating in Code S and weekend tournaments were never really similar which makes it really hard to compare a player who won a lot of these (like taeja) to someone who only ever participiated in a handful but did well (like ro8, ro4, maybe one or two titles).
On March 16 2017 18:18 ejozl wrote:
For me the Life vs TaeJa rivalry is still the highest level rivalry we've ever had. So it's really hard for me to just throw DH's and IEM's out of the window like many suggest. Life is easily the GOAT and Dark doesn't have much on SoO in terms of achievements, but I do think his level of play is higher atm than SoO's.
I don't really want to neglect it alltogether, i just think it is extremely hard to weigh it appropriately. I don't think that Taeja deserves that high of a praise even though skill wise he was a monster for sure. Not counting it at all is dumb obviously, but i think people value it too much.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On March 17 2017 01:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2017 16:37 munch wrote:On March 16 2017 11:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 11:03 munch wrote:On March 16 2017 10:58 lestye wrote:On March 16 2017 06:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 16 2017 06:26 Elentos wrote:On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
(because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably) Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be? Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments. so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet. You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013? I didn't say that. I specificially mentioned that "yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship". My point is that the whole talent pool of that tournament was still nowhere near the lvl of a code S where pretty much every single top player at that moment wants to participate. That means that the whole lvl of competition is a lot more fierce. In your example the code s before had 8 totally different players in the top 8 (soulkey, soO, Rain, etc). I assume that if we take the same talent pool of code s and let them all play in these weekend tournaments that it changes pretty much everything. While there are a few players like Taeja and maybe Polt which would change code s as well it's negligible in comparison. That's the main point. The talent pools participating in Code S and weekend tournaments were never really similar which makes it really hard to compare a player who won a lot of these (like taeja) to someone who only ever participiated in a handful but did well (like ro8, ro4, maybe one or two titles).
The talent pool argument is complete bullshit. Why does it even matter what the rest of the field was like compared to the players that a player actually played?
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It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket.
Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea)
The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc.
The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket.
Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea)
The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc.
The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run
If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater.
Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
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On March 17 2017 03:17 munch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket.
Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea)
The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc.
The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?. The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater. Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
Exactly it increases the likelihood of a legit run. It increases the context of each player's lvl of play at any given moment in that run as well. Example: If MMA in Taejas run would have been in a group with soO and Dear instead of JYP and Stardust his run up to Taeja would have been more impressive and that adds to taeja's run as well.
It's not as simple as looking at the name and pretend that they always play their max level and thus beating player X is always worth the same. Giving more context by increasing the lvl of competition is valuable. You seem to deny that.
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On March 16 2017 19:58 Charoisaur wrote:
Dark has a starleague win. soO doesn't.
At the very least they are extremely close although soO's 5th GSL finals appearance probably puts him slightly ahead.
Also the majority of Dark's achievements were in an era where Zerg was garbage so that should give him some bonus points.
Yeah, but you also have to consider the strength of each of his runs relative to the era. For instance, I found Dark's SSL 2nd place more impressive than his initial championship. He was under a more rigorous format, Zerg sucked during that period, and he faced tougher competition. His SSL gold had him only play five rounds, was the earliest tournament in LotV (aside from DH), and was during the very brief LotV period when Zerg was really strong.
All of soO's silver runs were harder than any of Dark's, especially his second. soO also has him beat in consistency, longevity as a top-tier player, and peak performances. Dark only really wins in terms of innovation.
I think soO is considerably ahead.
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sc2casts have become too slow 
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France12761 Posts
I didn't read everything yet but TRV still argues that early sc2 wasn't as competitive... but it's the other way around.
Early sc2 was the most competitive sc2 ever yet!
The only close period was when so many kespa pros switched over, but it was still not as cut throat as the early days!
The game was not figured out, there were absolute monsters that didn't even manage to qualify for code S right away (ie. Bomber, who wasn't in code S yet feared by many code S players). MarineKing was super scary but respected the wiser Mvp too much so incredible miracle managed to dominate the scene a bit...
The map pool and strategies made it hard to stay consistent but champions emerged (MVP, Nestea, MC).
Then there was the renewal with MMA (and Slayers), Bomber and other "2nd gen" monsters, the top dogs had troubles staying on top (MVP lost to Bomber and MMA but beat TOP and Squirtle...), Stephano became the ultimate foreigner, MLG saw plenty of foreigners get trashed by mid tier Koreans while few chosen ones survived (Hulk, SaSe, NaNi, IdrA a bit).
Luke really, early sc2 was very very tough since the game was so new, don't underestimate the achievements of the early dominants such as OldTea or MacCheese!
I'll read the other points (there are some about soO and Dark!) later, the debate seems genuinely interesting.
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Germany15880 Posts
On March 17 2017 03:17 munch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket.
Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea)
The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc.
The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?. The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater. Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run .
I agree with Viper here.
the whole talent pool matters because a stacked tournament guarantees that the most in form players advance to the later rounds.
if there is for example a tournament that includes only 6 top players there is a very real possibility that some of those players aren't in form/have a bad day or whatever and don't perform very well despite being a big name but still advance to the later rounds because the other players are even worse.
So I wouldn't value a TaeJa DH win where he beats 5 top players as high as let's say a KesPa Cup.
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The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys.
So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day.
On March 17 2017 06:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 03:17 munch wrote:On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket.
Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea)
The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc.
The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?. The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater. Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run . I agree with Viper here. the whole talent pool matters because a stacked tournament guarantees that the most in form players advance to the later rounds. if there is for example a tournament that includes only 6 top players there is a very real possibility that some of those players aren't in form/have a bad day or whatever and don't perform very well despite being a big name but still advance to the later rounds because the other players are even worse. So I wouldn't value a TaeJa DH win where he beats 5 top players as high as let's say a KesPa Cup.
Yeah that's basically the argument.
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France12761 Posts
On March 17 2017 06:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys.
So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day.
The bad in BW winning in sc2 argument has been proved bullshit when BW titans such as Flash/JD/whatever had shit results in sc2 considering their BW potential ^^.
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On March 17 2017 06:34 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2017 06:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys.
So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day. The bad in BW winning in sc2 argument has been proved bullshit when BW titans such as Flash/JD/whatever had shit results in sc2 considering their BW potential ^^.
My argument isn't that good in bw => good in sc2. My argument is that players bad in bw switched because they knew that the sc2 scene will never be as competitive without the whole kespa structure behind it and it's a new chance for them.
I doubt we will ever agree on this though, to me it seems to obvious that the most competitive era was when kespa switched and the players had enough time to get good at the game. It doesn't matter if JD or Flash were the new beasts, we had Rain, Soulkey, Innovation, soO, etc
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EPT
