The first match of the Round of 4 pitted heavyweights and crowd favorites soO and sOs against each other.
The series kicked off on Echo. soO was pulled left and right by sOs’ constant adept harass, but he managed to weather the storm and tech into hydra/ling/bane. His army grew and grew until it was so large that sOs’ storm wielding resistance could not stop it. With soO closing in on his undefended third base, sOs tapped out.
For the second game in a row sOs opted for a stargate and adept pressure, albeit this time without a prism. This time his attack gained traction, putting him ahead on workers. sOs capitalized on a lull in the game to take an expansion in the far left corner of the map while soO droned. soO scouted the hidden base before sOs could saturate it, but he suffered heavy losses when sOs countered as he split his army to kill it. Unable to find any economic damage sOs switched into carriers. soO traded well against them initially, but sOs’ economy and production won out in the end.
sOs led off with a double pylon block on Proxima Station. With soO’s expansions delayed, sOs poked with adepts while warping dark templar into the main. soO lost a few drones, but managed to hold and build a strong economy. sOs followed up with a dual pronged attack, but again soO stood firm. After pushing sOs back with mutalisks, soO continued building his roach/ravager army, eventually mixing in banelings. After battering away at sOs’ army a few times, sheer numbers overran the archon/immortal/charge composition, giving soO at 2-1 lead.
sOs attempted to even the series with a strong timing on soO’s third in game four. After killing the base and consolidating his army, he continued to harass while soO teched into lurkers and ramped up to four bases. The game evolved into a 27 minute affair in which soO assembled a brood lord army. Unable to fight soO’s monstrous force, sOs danced around the map, sniping bases wherever he could. soO did the same, cutting off sOs’ economy almost completely. With resources and army dwindling and storms depleted, sOs was forced to tap out as soO’s dominating force closed in. Needing to spark a comeback, sOs opened with a double warp prism dark templar attack. The investment paid off as sOs killed a number of drones and sniped soO’s lair while safely taking a third. That advantage proved to be insurmountable as sOs simply massed up an archon/immortal/zealot army that plowed through soO’s meager defenses.
Game 6 got off to a strange start as sOs pylon blocked soO’s natural before attempting an overcharge/zealot and adept attack on soO’s expansion. soO defended, though, before pushing back sOs’ oracle. sOs’ follow up adept push without glaives was also thwarted, putting soO a base ahead with a small worker lead. sOs tried to close the gap with more aggression, but soO was impenetrable. By the time sOs had established a third base and finished storm, soO was 30 supply ahead. sOs would posture while taking a fourth, but his force simply could not stand before soO’s hydra/bane/ling army. As soO closed in from all sides and into sOs’ third sOs was forced to concede the game and the series, making soO a GSL finalist for the fifth time.
Congratz to Soo, now i'm happy because either Soo or Stats will win the first big title of their careers, but i'm also sad that one of them will continue the Kong line .
On March 15 2017 22:38 Ansibled wrote: Looking forward to a 5th 2nd.
Weren't Twitch clips supposed to embed now?
They did the last time I did a recap. Something I noticed today is that last time the name of the channel was in the twitch clips url, but it isn't now. When I added "gsl" to these new clips i got a still image that said something about not being able to find the clip instead of just a link. So I think it has to do with that change.
Always the same "I know i'm going to get spoiled if I go to Teamliquid but I still do just so that I can complain" over and over and over again...
When you know there was GSL matches, just go to the GSL channel on twitch "https://www.twitch.tv/gsl/videos/all". The vods are available literally within 24 hours after the match and you don't even have to sub to watch them.
Anyway, Congrats to soO for his 5th final. Although i'm even more afraid of Stats now than i was about Classic / Dear / Zest / Innovation back in the days... Hope he can still win, he really deserves it.
On March 15 2017 23:57 G5 wrote: Was looking forward to watching this without knowing who won. Next time you do this, can you not include a spoiler in the title?
On March 15 2017 23:57 G5 wrote: Was looking forward to watching this without knowing who won. Next time you do this, can you not include a spoiler in the title?
Uhhm, there's been a spoiler filter on TL for quite some time now. Tick the checkbox "Hide Spoilers" on the home page. If you have already, and still click on a title saying [Spoiler Hidden], right after the GSL matches, then what can you really expect?
hey guys i'm super looking forward to watching VODs without knowing who won, but let me just check this website that is known for posting news articles about the outcomes of recent matches just hours after the matches end. nothing could go wrong, right guys???
i mean, if you care so much about not being spoiled, going to a website that you know will have the outcome up is a reckless disregard of the risk of being spoiled, which is your own fault. you really couldn't keep yourself from going to the website before you watched the VODs????
If I ever faced Soo in a semifinal match, I would bring a fake silver medal with me just to offer it to him when I lose. Not *if* I lose, *when* I lose.
SoO is real gladiator. In the the dark times when all Korean Zergs are dead or haunted down, , soO manages to kill sOs in semis and advanced to Code S finals. I am so hyped about this Zerg Bonwa! Thank You soO for keeping my hope alive!
On March 16 2017 01:35 hiroshOne wrote: SoO is real gladiator. In the the dark times when all Korean Zergs are dead or haunted down, , soO manages to kill sOs in semis and advanced to Code S finals. I am so hyped about this Zerg Bonwa! Thank You soO for keeping my hope alive!
To think, SoO could have been one of the greatest, but he was just one game away every time... No one in SC2 has had that much consistency. 4 GSL finals in a row!
Where can I find the first person view from each player, like the livestream from each player? I'll play the commentary in the background, but really I'd like to see the player actions directly
On March 16 2017 02:08 grapejerkephant wrote: Where can I find the first person view from each player, like the livestream from each player? I'll play the commentary in the background, but really I'd like to see the player actions directly
On March 16 2017 02:08 grapejerkephant wrote: Where can I find the first person view from each player, like the livestream from each player? I'll play the commentary in the background, but really I'd like to see the player actions directly
You can break into the GSL crew house in the night and threaten them with a picture of Neeb winning Kespa cup until they give it to you. Outside of that I don't think there is a way.
as i mentioned in another thread, i dont care about spoilers. but obviously lots of people do. TL should just have a vague non spoiler title: "GSL Semifinal results Soo vs SOS results" not that hard. so simple, no need for the spoiler feature, which sounds like it doesnt even work consistently. its pretty lazy not to just change the titles.
On March 16 2017 02:08 grapejerkephant wrote: Where can I find the first person view from each player, like the livestream from each player? I'll play the commentary in the background, but really I'd like to see the player actions directly
You can break into the GSL crew house in the night and threaten them with a picture of Neeb winning Kespa cup until they give it to you. Outside of that I don't think there is a way.
You can meet the GSL crew and propose to prevent Neeb from playing in Korea again. And get the replays in return
On March 16 2017 03:33 fishjie wrote: as i mentioned in another thread, i dont care about spoilers. but obviously lots of people do. TL should just have a vague non spoiler title: "GSL Semifinal results Soo vs SOS results" not that hard. so simple, no need for the spoiler feature, which sounds like it doesnt even work consistently. its pretty lazy not to just change the titles.
Writers on TL do it voluntarily, so you'd never make these kind of restrictions. If you're afraid of spoilers, don't come come later
On March 16 2017 02:27 BisuDagger wrote: soO > nestea if he wins this finals?
soO is already >>>> Nestea in my book. Quite easily
He has to be gaining ground on Life too. A gold here and a blizzcon win will surely put him to the top 5 all time list.
Personally i think reaching 4 finals in a row alone was already such a high achievement (even 4 gsl finals in general would be massive) tbh. And all of that in an era which was the most competitive ever.
Now it's not on that level anymore but still quite high imo, so yeah another GSL final on top of that, maybe even a title should push him quite hard i think.
Well personaly i think simply "counting golds" is bad. Especially when we look at players who didn't even play in the same tournament pool. Life played korean starleagues AND weekend tournaments. He simply had way more chances to win tournaments overall. That's the main reason why i judge Taeja's success way differently than most people who are more like "wow look at how many tournaments he won". I basically say: "if every top player would have travelled to these tournaments every single time it most likely would be quite different". That's assumptions i get that but it's not that unreasonable imo.
So yeah i like to compare players mostly through their korean tournament success because most top players tried to play in each one. Success here means top results, that includes ro8, ro4, proleague records, etc I didn't make a system yet to actually know how that would play out if i compare Dark, Life and soO though. If i had to state it now i would guess soO is actually pretty close to Life, Dark behind soO.
TaeJa didn't play gsl in his best years though so it's not entirely fair to count only korean tournaments. also sOs is surely a greater player than Sniper despite not having won a starleague.
Dark has the same amount of silvers in tier 1 tournaments as soO (2 KesPa Cups, SSL, Blizzcon) and has 1 SSL win vs soO's KesPa Cup win. Also he has 1 gold and 1 silver in crossfinals.
before this season I would've put Dark ahead but with soO's 5th gsl appearance he takes a slight lead imo.
On March 16 2017 05:04 Charoisaur wrote: TaeJa didn't play gsl in his best years though so it's not entirely fair to count only korean tournaments. also sOs is surely a greater player than Sniper despite not having won a starleague.
Dark has the same amount of silvers in tier 1 tournaments as soO (2 KesPa Cups, SSL, Blizzcon) and has 1 SSL win vs soO's KesPa Cup win. Also he has 1 gold and 1 silver in crossfinals.
before this season I would've put Dark ahead but with soO's 5th gsl appearance he takes a slight lead imo.
Sure but i think it is more reasonable to weigh the scene more which has more consistency of top talent in it. I don't even wanna completely neglect every weekend tournament. I am merely pointing out why it's incredibly hard to weigh Taeja's wins against other top players simply because they for the most part only played in korea (yes not ONLY but as i said, in comparison it's basically that)
I don't rate a Kespa cup the same i rate a starleague. Imo preparation and the fact that you have to do well over a longer period of time makes SSL/GSL/OSL superior to kespa cup or anything similar. Cross finals are basically show matches.
Well as i said i don't have an "objective" system atm (objective as in consistent with the subjective criteria i would choose) so i cannot be sure, but atm i would give soO quite the lead because imo 5 GSL final appearances is superior to Dark's results and that quite easily. Winning this GSL might even put him above Life in my mind, maybe but i am not sure about that yet (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
If soO wins the finals there's gonna be so much crying. soO and that trophy are going to be like Audrey Hepburn and George Peppard at the end of Breakfast at Tiffany's.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
I was a MEGA fanboy for NesTea back in the day, but the guy just didn't have the longevity to even be among the top 10 GOATS in my book. I'd of even ranked PartinG ahead of him. soO blows him out of the water and is EASILY the second best Zerg of all-time. I'm pretty indifferent to soO, so there really isn't any bias, I just have to keep it real. soO has the best mechanics I've ever seen from a Zerg in sc2.
In my estimation, soO is probably somewhere between #9-#7 in GOAT status. Taeja still murders him, deal with it :p
==
On another note...why is Dark in the convo at all as far as GOATs go? Even before this season, he doesn't touch soO. He's behind both DRG and NesTea. Hell, if ByuL stages another major starleague run I'd argue for him over Dark. I don't even dislike Dark, but he strikes me as overrated.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
I'm a zerg user so it goes w/out saying, I'm rooting for soO.
Having said that the Buffalo Bills went to 4 straight Super Bowls from 1990 to 1993. We all know what they're remembered for. I would feel soO bad if history repeats itself.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
Yes, context is everything. Taeja cared more for weekenders, KeSPA Koreans cared more for Starleagues (whilst also juggling Proleague - team orders yo!). Now, the conservative view would be that Taeja vs KeSPA Koreans are incomparable, since they are fighting on different streams. But I would argue that the latter's achievements matter more, since the Starleague stream is more stacked and tightly fought (and by 'stacked', I mean in terms of player motivation, preparation, focus, etc. - not just raw numbers of top tier players*).
That's just my subjective view of things. (I'm on Red Viper's side on this, just to be clear.)
* An analogy would be the Europa League. It has lots of good teams all over Europe (granted, the top ones are in the Champions League). By raw numbers alone, it is more 'stacked' than a national league, like even the EPL. But most clubs tend to field B-teams instead. There's more money and glory in their national leagues, and that's where their focus is at. And I'm sure most English clubs would rather win the EPL than the Europa League, if given a choice.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013?
For me the Life vs TaeJa rivalry is still the highest level rivalry we've ever had. So it's really hard for me to just throw DH's and IEM's out of the window like many suggest. Life is easily the GOAT and Dark doesn't have much on SoO in terms of achievements, but I do think his level of play is higher atm than SoO's.
Dark has a starleague win. soO doesn't. At the very least they are extremely close although soO's 5th GSL finals appearance probably puts him slightly ahead.
Also the majority of Dark's achievements were in an era where Zerg was garbage so that should give him some bonus points.
This was an awesome matchup, but I'm surprised nobody is talking about the quarterfinals with regard to how well soO is playing. sOs is not exactly at the top of his game right now, but TY absolutely is. The way soO turned that series around was amazing, and I'm really impressed with how he was able to move from very aggressive play in some of those games to the more deliberate defensive macro style he showed against sOs. Dude is playing out of his mind in this tournament, so the finals should be spectacular no matter what happens.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013?
I didn't say that. I specificially mentioned that "yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship". My point is that the whole talent pool of that tournament was still nowhere near the lvl of a code S where pretty much every single top player at that moment wants to participate. That means that the whole lvl of competition is a lot more fierce. In your example the code s before had 8 totally different players in the top 8 (soulkey, soO, Rain, etc). I assume that if we take the same talent pool of code s and let them all play in these weekend tournaments that it changes pretty much everything. While there are a few players like Taeja and maybe Polt which would change code s as well it's negligible in comparison. That's the main point. The talent pools participating in Code S and weekend tournaments were never really similar which makes it really hard to compare a player who won a lot of these (like taeja) to someone who only ever participiated in a handful but did well (like ro8, ro4, maybe one or two titles).
On March 16 2017 18:18 ejozl wrote: For me the Life vs TaeJa rivalry is still the highest level rivalry we've ever had. So it's really hard for me to just throw DH's and IEM's out of the window like many suggest. Life is easily the GOAT and Dark doesn't have much on SoO in terms of achievements, but I do think his level of play is higher atm than SoO's.
I don't really want to neglect it alltogether, i just think it is extremely hard to weigh it appropriately. I don't think that Taeja deserves that high of a praise even though skill wise he was a monster for sure. Not counting it at all is dumb obviously, but i think people value it too much.
On March 16 2017 05:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: (because at that point i would really neglect every weekend tournament ever probably)
Well, not all of them. Just the results from like... two Blizzcons, two MLGs, two IEMs, two Dreamhacks and Iron Squid. And how hard could that possibly be?
Nah way more than that because i already said i don't only look at gold medals, that's flawed in my opinion
It depends on the Gold medals too. We've had incredibly stacked IEMs and really tame ones. I'd be willing to count gold medals in GSLs straight up, notsomuch the weekend tournaments.
so you think this should be rated above this? Context is everything. Same reason why calling random GOM events GSLs is shitty practice
Well even in the dreamhack you listed there weren't really all that many absolute top tier players in it which then decreases the whole lvl of competition. (yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship, but what would have happened if any of the top 8 GSL players would have competed there as well for example?) On the other hand the early days of sc2 weren't all that competitive to begin with because the talent pool wasn't that deep yet.
You really think that INno / sOs / SjoW / ForGG / HerO / MMA / Life x2 isn't a hard tournament run from 2013?
I didn't say that. I specificially mentioned that "yes taeja had quite the legit path to the championship". My point is that the whole talent pool of that tournament was still nowhere near the lvl of a code S where pretty much every single top player at that moment wants to participate. That means that the whole lvl of competition is a lot more fierce. In your example the code s before had 8 totally different players in the top 8 (soulkey, soO, Rain, etc). I assume that if we take the same talent pool of code s and let them all play in these weekend tournaments that it changes pretty much everything. While there are a few players like Taeja and maybe Polt which would change code s as well it's negligible in comparison. That's the main point. The talent pools participating in Code S and weekend tournaments were never really similar which makes it really hard to compare a player who won a lot of these (like taeja) to someone who only ever participiated in a handful but did well (like ro8, ro4, maybe one or two titles).
The talent pool argument is complete bullshit. Why does it even matter what the rest of the field was like compared to the players that a player actually played?
It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket. Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea) The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc. The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket. Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea) The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc. The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater.
Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket. Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea) The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc. The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater.
Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
Exactly it increases the likelihood of a legit run. It increases the context of each player's lvl of play at any given moment in that run as well. Example: If MMA in Taejas run would have been in a group with soO and Dear instead of JYP and Stardust his run up to Taeja would have been more impressive and that adds to taeja's run as well. It's not as simple as looking at the name and pretend that they always play their max level and thus beating player X is always worth the same. Giving more context by increasing the lvl of competition is valuable. You seem to deny that.
On March 16 2017 19:58 Charoisaur wrote: Dark has a starleague win. soO doesn't. At the very least they are extremely close although soO's 5th GSL finals appearance probably puts him slightly ahead.
Also the majority of Dark's achievements were in an era where Zerg was garbage so that should give him some bonus points.
Yeah, but you also have to consider the strength of each of his runs relative to the era. For instance, I found Dark's SSL 2nd place more impressive than his initial championship. He was under a more rigorous format, Zerg sucked during that period, and he faced tougher competition. His SSL gold had him only play five rounds, was the earliest tournament in LotV (aside from DH), and was during the very brief LotV period when Zerg was really strong.
All of soO's silver runs were harder than any of Dark's, especially his second. soO also has him beat in consistency, longevity as a top-tier player, and peak performances. Dark only really wins in terms of innovation.
I didn't read everything yet but TRV still argues that early sc2 wasn't as competitive... but it's the other way around. Early sc2 was the most competitive sc2 ever yet! The only close period was when so many kespa pros switched over, but it was still not as cut throat as the early days!
The game was not figured out, there were absolute monsters that didn't even manage to qualify for code S right away (ie. Bomber, who wasn't in code S yet feared by many code S players). MarineKing was super scary but respected the wiser Mvp too much so incredible miracle managed to dominate the scene a bit... The map pool and strategies made it hard to stay consistent but champions emerged (MVP, Nestea, MC). Then there was the renewal with MMA (and Slayers), Bomber and other "2nd gen" monsters, the top dogs had troubles staying on top (MVP lost to Bomber and MMA but beat TOP and Squirtle...), Stephano became the ultimate foreigner, MLG saw plenty of foreigners get trashed by mid tier Koreans while few chosen ones survived (Hulk, SaSe, NaNi, IdrA a bit). Luke really, early sc2 was very very tough since the game was so new, don't underestimate the achievements of the early dominants such as OldTea or MacCheese!
I'll read the other points (there are some about soO and Dark!) later, the debate seems genuinely interesting.
On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket. Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea) The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc. The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater.
Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
. I agree with Viper here. the whole talent pool matters because a stacked tournament guarantees that the most in form players advance to the later rounds. if there is for example a tournament that includes only 6 top players there is a very real possibility that some of those players aren't in form/have a bad day or whatever and don't perform very well despite being a big name but still advance to the later rounds because the other players are even worse. So I wouldn't value a TaeJa DH win where he beats 5 top players as high as let's say a KesPa Cup.
The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys. So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day.
On March 17 2017 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not bullshit at all. Because if the whole talent pool is there it affects the whole bracket. Easy example: If only Taeja and Life would be there they most likely meet in the finals, that pushes both their "worst placement" to the runner up basically (ofc that's not true because upsets can happen as well no matter the skill gap, but you get the idea) The more talent we add the harder it is for everyone. Add the top 8 of the last code s season to that dreamhack and it's quite likely that some of them would have beaten other players, that way Taeja maybe wouldn't have been first in his group, he then maybe would have had to play another top 8 player, etc. The lvl of competition at any given tournament hugely affects everything else. As i said though, Taeja's path was already quite hard there i don't say that this isn't true. Removing the "worse players" and adding the likes of soulkey, rain, soO, dear, etc still would have made the tournament pool more competitive and thus changed the whole tournament.
Question: Do you really argue that adding more top players from korea to any given weekend tournament wouldn't have a noticeable impact/would make the tournament more legit in comparison?.
The only noticeable impact is increasing the likelihood of a legit run If you're comparing a tournament with 16 good players with a tournament with 5 good players, then obviously the likelihood of you hitting a run of 5 of those good players on the way to the title is going to be greater.
Doesn't change the fact that the quality of the players you don't play means fuck all to your specific run
. I agree with Viper here. the whole talent pool matters because a stacked tournament guarantees that the most in form players advance to the later rounds. if there is for example a tournament that includes only 6 top players there is a very real possibility that some of those players aren't in form/have a bad day or whatever and don't perform very well despite being a big name but still advance to the later rounds because the other players are even worse. So I wouldn't value a TaeJa DH win where he beats 5 top players as high as let's say a KesPa Cup.
On March 17 2017 06:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys. So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day.
The bad in BW winning in sc2 argument has been proved bullshit when BW titans such as Flash/JD/whatever had shit results in sc2 considering their BW potential ^^.
On March 17 2017 06:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: The early days lacked ressources and the talent pool overall. There is a reason old players like NaDa and July and "bad" BW players like Mvp, MMA, Nestea etc switched to sc2. Because it was a new chance, it wasn't as competitive as the bw scene and that was the motivation for these guys. So while i also have nostalgic memories, it's imo absurd to compare the scene in 2011 to the scene when Kespa actually switched. It's night and day.
The bad in BW winning in sc2 argument has been proved bullshit when BW titans such as Flash/JD/whatever had shit results in sc2 considering their BW potential ^^.
My argument isn't that good in bw => good in sc2. My argument is that players bad in bw switched because they knew that the sc2 scene will never be as competitive without the whole kespa structure behind it and it's a new chance for them.
I doubt we will ever agree on this though, to me it seems to obvious that the most competitive era was when kespa switched and the players had enough time to get good at the game. It doesn't matter if JD or Flash were the new beasts, we had Rain, Soulkey, Innovation, soO, etc
EPT
soO and 
sOs against each other.
. 
