Before 2017, there had been a distinctly underwhelming feel to TY’s career. His was a case of potential unfulfilled; of missed opportunities; of inconsistency and failure time and again at the highest level. There’s a reason a Korean meme developed from his poor performances dedicated to his doppelgänger “John Sun the Foreigner”. Time and again he was beaten by better players in starleagues and weekenders alike. Not quite good enough to emerge from Flash’s shadow; not quite good enough to depose Zest; not quite good enough to beat INnoVation, Maru, or ByuN. Always there; always fated to drop out. His was a career of near-misses, of opportunities not taken; always judged on what he could do rather than what he did.
In 2017 though, he’s broken through those barriers. Victory at WESG was one thing; beating his long-time tormentor in Maru in a tournament otherwise lacking star power. With victory at IEM Katowice though, TY finally has the big win he’s craved for all 12 years of his career.
It wasn’t pretty. He didn’t glide serenely through the brackets like Dark, or demolish his group like aLive, or display the crisp perfection of Stats. But that only adds to the power of his win here. TY has always been one for the flashy win; for looking good when he wins and awful when he doesn’t. Here, he was forced to grind out series after series, match after match in the grittiest performance we’ve ever seen from him. 3-2 in the group stages with a 7-6 map record; 3-1 over Zest; 3-2 over GuMiho; 3-2 over aLive, 4-3 over Stats.
Winning a tournament with a 20-14 map record might not be the most dominant run of matches we’ve ever seen, but it was a level of mental resilience and a refusal to buckle that we’ve never seen from him before. Last year, he was the Nearly Man. This year, he’s a BaBy no more.
Day 6 Recap
The first semifinal got off to a twitchy start. Aggression from both players led to a somewhat awkward start on Newkirk Precinct, with TY’s liberator harass dealing far more economic damage than aLive’s cloak banshee opener. aLive never really recovered from his critical losses, and a follow-up tank / marine push easily forced a GG. aLive quickly fought back though, doom dropping TY on Proxima before his own death push rolled into the natural. He didn’t stop there either, taking the win on Cactus Valley as well. An aggressive start left TY on two bases but with the much bigger army, and all that remained was to see whether he could crack aLive’s three base setup. aLive’s defensive hold held off a far superior containing force, and counter-pushed to deal game-ending damage.
On Honorgrounds, it was TY’s turn to play for the late game. aLive’s banshees were again ineffective, and several poor engagements and drops only saw him drop further and further behind. Once more, it was time for a decisive game on Abyssal Reef, and once more it delivered. A greedy 3CC opener from aLive was scouted and immediately countered by TY with a marine / tank push that seemed to inflict critical losses on a mis-controlling aLive; sieging behind the natural and eliminating 20 SCVs due to a late worker pull. aLive immediately countered, and extracted significant damage, dropping all over TY’s bases and harassing with ravens. In the chaos though, TY managed a critical snipe of aLive’s 3rd CC. aLive kept throwing more and more drops at TY, but his inefficiency and economic defecit began to tell. One further snipe of the main CC, floated to the 3rd was the killer blow, and TY routed aLive’s desperate counter-push to take the game and series.
Next came only the second PvZ of the playoffs. Proxima Station finally saw Stats go for a carrier rush—the first time we’ve seen it from him this tournament—but Dark countered it beautifully. Constant runbys kept Stats wary, while a mass spore wall was constructed and slowly pushed into the centre of the map. In the first (and last) big fight, Dark crushed the army, pouncing on Stats’ positional error to abduct the mothership and force a recall, before routing the remnants of the army. Game 2 on Newkirk featured a far more aggressive start—constant waves of ravager / ling / bane crashing into Stats’ base setup, with the protoss holding on by the skin of his teeth on each occasion—but it too was destined to go all the way to the endgame. As both players mined out, the game centred around a single remaining base on Stats’ side of the map. Dark desperately tried to hold it, surrounding it with his entire army, but Stats crushed through with his skytoss armada and endless storm support.
Cactus Valley saw a swift momentum switch; Dark’s roach / ling all-in was held with flying colours by Stats, and a large adept count crushed the follow-up to give the lead to the protoss. Abyssal Reef continued the theme of zerg aggression, with Dark opting for a ling / bane / queen all-in that was crushed by Stats while an adept run-by gutted his economy. The protoss countered with sentry / immortal, and while Dark defended brilliantly, Stats’ huge lead began to tell, and soon the ex-KT final was confirmed.
Stats took the lead on Newkirk with strong defensive protoss play, fending off TY’s liberator harass while soaking up the terran’s pushes at the front. A couple of huge disruptor hits softened up the terran army, before Stats crushed through with a stalker / colossus force. Games 2 and 3 though went the way of TY. A proxy factory produced huge dividends as mines went off across Stats’ bases, and his economic lead allowed TY to muster a huge bio force, hitting a timing just before storm.
Game 3 on Abyssal Reef opened similarly, with phoenix adept still the order of the day. With no economic damage this time though, storm finished in time for the first big fight, and the game slowly played out into the late game. Ghosts and tempests came out onto the field of play, but this time it was TY constantly finding damage, cancelling bases and harassing with liberators. Liberators zoned Stats out from a crucial central mining base, and with the protoss’ colossus / tempest army strung out in retreat, TY pounced to eliminate his opponent from the match.
After so many late game scenarios already in the day, it was only so long until Stats snapped, and Paladino Terminal gave him the perfect opportunity—pylon rush with proxy oracles. The phoenix follow-up lifted the cyclones, adepts shaded in below, and oracles rained down death from above for a swift equaliser. TY shot right back in front—effective mine drops dealing early damage on Bel’Shir, before a tank contain, supported by turrets and a bunker, choked Stats out of the game.
With his back against the wall, Stats needed to win on Honorgrounds to take us to Game 7. TY raced ahead, getting to 3-3 while Stats was still on 1-1. A huge medivac drop in the main brought another crucial pair of forge snipes seconds before 2-2 would have finished, and flashbacks of yesterday’s game against ByuN must have instantly haunted Stats. However, this time terran would not be victorious; snipes on those medivacs left TY’s liberator contain without any bio support, and Stats pushed through with a hefty army supply lead. Wiping out TY’s mining bases, he returned home to crush TY’s counter and take us to the ace match.
With everything to play for on Cactus Valley, TY took it back to the same strategy that served him well on Bel’Shir. Tanks and liberators sieged up, and with only a pair of colossi and minimal gateway units available, Stats had no tools to break the contain. His third and natural fell simultaneously, and with his army crumbling, he had no option but to concede the title to TY.
Dammit, aLive played such awesome TvT against Inno but fell apart against TY. I mean, he won two games but his form was nowhere near yesterday's level. Wish we could have seen Inno vs TY, that would have been so sick.
In any case, the finals were fucking amazing. So happy for TY, 10 years of nothing leading up to $300,000 in 3 months. After this, it would be so crazy if Stats loses to soO in the GSL finals. soO breaking his Kong curse and handing it to Stats
On March 06 2017 03:03 stuchiu wrote: I can literally feel Olli's smugness and hatred across the globe.
I loved when they talked about how many great Terrans Korea produces, all of whom were nowhere near as good just a while ago.
almost same story as before, almost. zest sos dear hero etc came out of nowhere with hots release, classic have won a gsl in less than a year after switching to protoss from terran.
On March 06 2017 03:03 stuchiu wrote: I can literally feel Olli's smugness and hatred across the globe.
I loved when they talked about how many great Terrans Korea produces, all of whom were nowhere near as good just a while ago.
almost same story as before, almost. zest sos dear hero etc came out of nowhere with hots release, classic have won a gsl in less than a year after switching to protoss from terran.
On March 06 2017 03:03 stuchiu wrote: I can literally feel Olli's smugness and hatred across the globe.
I loved when they talked about how many great Terrans Korea produces, all of whom were nowhere near as good just a while ago.
almost same story as before, almost. zest sos dear hero etc came out of nowhere with hots release, classic have won a gsl in less than a year after switching to protoss from terran.
You mean they got good when a new game was released after they'd just switched from brood war? No way!
On March 06 2017 03:03 stuchiu wrote: I can literally feel Olli's smugness and hatred across the globe.
I loved when they talked about how many great Terrans Korea produces, all of whom were nowhere near as good just a while ago.
Not? TY was in the GSL finals S1 last year.
And yet, when winrates were even across the board, all these Terrans weren't so hot. There might just be a connection between that and the ~40% PvT winrate we've had for a while. But hey, I'm just connecting the dots here.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
On March 06 2017 03:20 Olli wrote: And yet, when winrates were even across the board, all these Terrans weren't so hot. There might just be a connection between that and the ~40% PvT winrate we've had for a while. But hey, I'm just connecting the dots here.
Well that rate is from before liberator nerf. And Stats handedly defeated ByuN yesterday, and he was not playing poorly. TY just played incredibly well today, absolutely hit the zone. It's a big shame to take that away like that.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
I think a key moment for TY that went unseen by a lot of people (including casters and observer) was that during the first match, in game 5, after aLive got himself back into a good position as the game was going crazy, TY's marines intercepted 2 fully loaded medivacs near his 3rd which got him a huge army lead to go with his econ advantage.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
They're just two of the best foriegners and two of the best koreans, what would they know?
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
They're just two of the best foriegners and two of the best koreans, what would they know?
Rain said terran is literally broodlord infestor, yes what would biased pros ever know Sry but this "hey some pros said it" argument simply doesn't work even if it could be true in a specific instance. Strategies change, solutions change. Nobody knows if there is a legit counter even if they atm think there is none.
With that being said, yes i also think it looks very strong. I wonder if you could do anything with warp prism micro there though? Also something i talked about in the LR thread: I wonder if it would be a good idea to make siege mode an upgrade again now that the tank is strong. Obviously it's balanced around it not being there atm in some instances, so who knows
Such a great tournament with a ton of great games. Probably the most sc2 I've watched in a long time. I was pretty much glued to my monitor most of the weekend. I do enjoy that the games start so early EST time as well so even on the "late" days, the games still end by 4 or 5pm EST so I can still do things later in the night if I want.
Made it even better being able to watch my maps Abyssal & Honorgrounds produce some pretty awesome games.
On March 06 2017 04:42 SidianTheBard wrote: Such a great tournament with a ton of great games. Probably the most sc2 I've watched in a long time. I was pretty much glued to my monitor most of the weekend. I do enjoy that the games start so early EST time as well so even on the "late" days, the games still end by 4 or 5pm EST so I can still do things later in the night if I want.
Made it even better being able to watch my maps Abyssal & Honorgrounds produce some pretty awesome games.
The final game on Abyssal was soooooo good, thank you for making that map^^
Final game 7 deserved better (so did Stats), but besides that I really liked this tournament - all three races represented in the final stages and with some amazing close games! gg wp TY!
On March 06 2017 02:52 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: [quote]
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
They're just two of the best foriegners and two of the best koreans, what would they know?
Rain said terran is literally broodlord infestor, yes what would biased pros ever know Sry but this "hey some pros said it" argument simply doesn't work even if it could be true in a specific instance. Strategies change, solutions change. Nobody knows if there is a legit counter even if they atm think there is none.
With that being said, yes i also think it looks very strong. I wonder if you could do anything with warp prism micro there though? Also something i talked about in the LR thread: I wonder if it would be a good idea to make siege mode an upgrade again now that the tank is strong. Obviously it's balanced around it not being there atm in some instances, so who knows
They weren't talking about balance. They were talking about whether or not that build was standard or not.
I really liked the format of this tournament. The group stage was soo awesome and tbh fair. You had to play 5 opponents and only those who were the best were moving forward. Round Robin soo good Not to mention about the offline qualifiers with double elimination bracket.
Only those who are the best of the best not some kind of unlucky game/opponent
Not so many foreigners there but at least those best of the best were able to play on the competetive level with koreans.. u gotta learn from the best dont you?
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
They're just two of the best foriegners and two of the best koreans, what would they know?
Rain said terran is literally broodlord infestor, yes what would biased pros ever know Sry but this "hey some pros said it" argument simply doesn't work even if it could be true in a specific instance. Strategies change, solutions change. Nobody knows if there is a legit counter even if they atm think there is none.
With that being said, yes i also think it looks very strong. I wonder if you could do anything with warp prism micro there though? Also something i talked about in the LR thread: I wonder if it would be a good idea to make siege mode an upgrade again now that the tank is strong. Obviously it's balanced around it not being there atm in some instances, so who knows
They weren't talking about balance. They were talking about whether or not that build was standard or not.
Ofc they are talking about balance when the topic is with what builds you can or cannot open a game because of that particular build from terran. You apparently CANNOT open robo because you have no chance to defend it, that's a qualitative statement about balance in certain game situations. I am saying that maybe there is a way to make robo work even though these pros don't think it is possible. Not different than pros saying another race is op because they don't have a solution for it. Just a bit more specific.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
stats's score in pvt is 11-9 at this iem he doesn't look like pvt whiner, compare his pvt with zest's adept phoenix 20 minutes spam, just another level, don't even mention foreigners.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
Innovation said 7 gate adept allin is unstoppable even if you know it's coming.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
stats's score in pvt is 11-9 at this iem he doesn't look like pvt whiner, compare his pvt with zest's adept phoenix 20 minutes spam, just another level, don't even mention foreigners.
On March 06 2017 02:48 Olli wrote: So ready for that patch now
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
Innovation said 7 gate adept allin is unstoppable even if you know it's coming.
You only need to find one more korean and two foreigners who say the same
On March 06 2017 02:52 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: [quote]
so even more adept phoenix, adepts will be fixed one day.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
Innovation said 7 gate adept allin is unstoppable even if you know it's coming.
You only need to find one more korean and two foreigners who say the same
I could probably find more, but those were all I talked to. So 100% of people I asked about this.
Ofc they are talking about balance when the topic is with what builds you can or cannot open a game because of that particular build from terran. You apparently CANNOT open robo because you have no chance to defend it, that's a qualitative statement about balance in certain game situations. I am saying that maybe there is a way to make robo work even though these pros don't think it is possible. Not different than pros saying another race is op because they don't have a solution for it. Just a bit more specific.
Did nobody watch Game 6 or something? Stats very clearly made robo work there....
The winner of Stats v Ryung needs to win GSL now...
Nahbro soO needs it far more. Gotta break the Kong curse and all the best Terrans are out. This is his best chance.
Actually maybe protoss could open robo again - though that'll probably require another patch
yeah, Stats kinda tried to do so in the last game )
He tried three times I believe, died to the same build twice. Tank/liberator pushes just wreck it so hard that nobody except Stats even tries.
he died to this build just because it's new, first times 16 marines drop in tvz was so good but now only byun play it and not so often too, when inno was playing his 2 tank stim build in tvp first times it was strong too but even neeb can adapt to this very good now.
It's not new, it's the reason why no protoss opens robo anymore. I've literally just heard this from pros and experienced it on ladder about a hundred times.
I remember tough times against early tank pushes in pvt when I was playing random, but with a proper scout, without fast 3rd i'm sure there is a way to counter this even with robo, next time stats will show the way, and from what pros you've heard this, don't say mana please.
Showtime and Harstem, who had it confirmed by Stats and Zest as well. But hey, you know better.
Innovation said 7 gate adept allin is unstoppable even if you know it's coming.
You only need to find one more korean and two foreigners who say the same
I could probably find more, but those were all I talked to. So 100% of people I asked about this.
I don't doubt that these people believe that and say that. I am simply arguing that their belief alone doesn't mean it is necessarily true. It's always the same in strategy games, maybe there is a way to make something specific work, maybe there is not. Again: what do you think about making siege mode an upgrade again? I guess that's too big of a change in general, i simply like there being upgrades for certain power spikes though
Ofc they are talking about balance when the topic is with what builds you can or cannot open a game because of that particular build from terran. You apparently CANNOT open robo because you have no chance to defend it, that's a qualitative statement about balance in certain game situations. I am saying that maybe there is a way to make robo work even though these pros don't think it is possible. Not different than pros saying another race is op because they don't have a solution for it. Just a bit more specific.
Did nobody watch Game 6 or something? Stats very clearly made robo work there....
Hey i am just arguing the general notion I guess they mean a more specific timing, like in the last game
Hey i am just arguing the general notion I guess they mean a more specific timing, like in the last game
I'm agreeing with you. Opening robo is viable and we know this because Stats won a game by opening robo. TY used basically the same build (early 3 tank push) in Games 5, 6, and 7. It worked in Games 5 and 7 and failed in Game 6. The reasons for it working and failing should be pretty obvious for anyone who watched the series.
Game 5: TY kills 10 probes using hellions/reaper+mine drop. This puts Stats on the back foot and he fails to contest TY's push until TY has literally sieged his natural. Stats was never going to win after that as long as TY didn't throw.
Game 6: Stats defends far better, deflecting the mine drop entirely and losing a total of 2 probes instead of 10. Then he pushes out onto the map, meets TY's push (identical comp to the last game) on open ground by the watchtower and easily wins the fight. He goes on to win the game for reasons everyone knows (forge snipe into no ground army).
Game 7: TY changes his build by replacing the Medivac with a Raven and uses it to snipe the Observer. Stats manages to intercept the push like last game but he has only one Colossus instead of two and three Stalkers instead of six. Unlike the previous two games, TY keeps the Liberator with his army instead of sending it to harass the mineral lines. Also he has autoturrets. Therefore the situation is the Game 6 with less army for Stats and more for TY. It shouldn't be a surprise that Stats has to retreat. He retreats, TY sets up a hard contain, and it's Game 5 all over again with the same result.
And there you have it. Robo openings are viable assuming you counter Terran's push like Stats did in Game 6. Playing greedy will get you killed by this push, taking too much early damage will get you killed by this push (just like every other well-executed early push, what a surprise!). Maps also play a big role; Cactus and Belshir are good maps to set up hard contains while Honorgrounds is not.
Certainly some builds are more viable than others, certainly some require more skill to pull off, certainly the 3-tank push is a strong build. But it is not broken, it is certainly not unbeatable, and anyone claiming as much is mistaken or lying. (Not my word but the evidence of Stats winning should make this obvious)
Hey i am just arguing the general notion I guess they mean a more specific timing, like in the last game
I'm agreeing with you. Opening robo is viable and we know this because Stats won a game by opening robo. TY used basically the same build (early 3 tank push) in Games 5, 6, and 7. It worked in Games 5 and 7 and failed in Game 6. The reasons for it working and failing should be pretty obvious for anyone who watched the series.
Game 5: TY kills 10 probes using hellions/reaper+mine drop. This puts Stats on the back foot and he fails to contest TY's push until TY has literally sieged his natural. Stats was never going to win after that as long as TY didn't throw.
Game 6: Stats defends far better, deflecting the mine drop entirely and losing a total of 2 probes instead of 10. Then he pushes out onto the map, meets TY's push (identical comp to the last game) on open ground by the watchtower and easily wins the fight. He goes on to win the game for reasons everyone knows (forge snipe into no ground army).
Game 7: TY changes his build by replacing the Medivac with a Raven and uses it to snipe the Observer. Stats manages to intercept the push like last game but he has only one Colossus instead of two and three Stalkers instead of six. Unlike the previous two games, TY keeps the Liberator with his army instead of sending it to harass the mineral lines. Also he has autoturrets. Therefore the situation is the Game 6 with less army for Stats and more for TY. It shouldn't be a surprise that Stats has to retreat. He retreats, TY sets up a hard contain, and it's Game 5 all over again with the same result.
And there you have it. Robo openings are viable assuming you counter Terran's push like Stats did in Game 6. Playing greedy will get you killed by this push, taking too much early damage will get you killed by this push (just like every other well-executed early push, what a surprise!). Maps also play a big role; Cactus and Belshir are good maps to set up hard contains while Honorgrounds is not.
Certainly some builds are more viable than others, certainly some require more skill to pull off, certainly the 3-tank push is a strong build. But it is not broken, it is certainly not unbeatable, and anyone claiming as much is mistaken or lying. (Not my word but the evidence of Stats winning should make this obvious)
Greath explanation, the funny thing is that they completely forget about game 4 wich has the same exact situation but reversed.
Great BO7, great weekend of SC2, great stuff all the way around. all the top finishers and David Kim.. take a bow.
On March 06 2017 06:18 The_Red_Viper wrote: Again: what do you think about making siege mode an upgrade again? I guess that's too big of a change in general, i simply like there being upgrades for certain power spikes though
if TvP is consistently Terran favoured at the highest level and at the 4 to 8 minute mark Protoss is particularly vulnerable this might be a good idea. Notice all the IFs though.
im not so much of posting about balance but here it is.
opening robo is completly fine. what is not fine is being greedy / losing probes u just die to the tank push if that is the case, also saying nerfing mine will fix the tank push is completly silly considering mines arent even used during the initial tank push phase which is what is scary about it.
the build ty used for tank push is also new. never done before threfore the timings that stats normally use for a normal stim timing w tank push didnt really seem to be great vs the version ty was using.
saying robo is not viable is silly. literally in this bo7 he open robo once and he won when he didnt lose 10 probes to 2 hellion and 2 mine. is like terran losing 10 scvs to a oracle. u just lose its how sc2 works u lose workers early game and its almost impossible to win also people mention pvt is 40%. i dont know about you but for me only winrates that matter are where best players play aka GSL. if you look at GSL statistics its actually 54% for protoss favor.
all widow mine nerf is gonna do is make adept way stronger than what it already is. vs robo u dont make mines after intianl 4-6 because collosus / disruptors so they become useless. u literally only make alot of mines vs stargate play so nerfing mines will only make stargate play stronger. if what you guys want robo play to be buffed nerfing mines is not gonna change anything at all
On March 06 2017 05:49 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ofc they are talking about balance when the topic is with what builds you can or cannot open a game because of that particular build from terran. You apparently CANNOT open robo because you have no chance to defend it, that's a qualitative statement about balance in certain game situations. I am saying that maybe there is a way to make robo work even though these pros don't think it is possible. Not different than pros saying another race is op because they don't have a solution for it. Just a bit more specific.
Great logic.
I think Terran is OP against zerg because I can't open ultralisks. How ridiculous is that. Just because someone says a certain build doesn't work doesn't mean they are complaining about balance or even that there's a balance issue.
On March 06 2017 05:49 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ofc they are talking about balance when the topic is with what builds you can or cannot open a game because of that particular build from terran. You apparently CANNOT open robo because you have no chance to defend it, that's a qualitative statement about balance in certain game situations. I am saying that maybe there is a way to make robo work even though these pros don't think it is possible. Not different than pros saying another race is op because they don't have a solution for it. Just a bit more specific.
Great logic.
I think Terran is OP against zerg because I can't open ultralisks. How ridiculous is that. Just because someone says a certain build doesn't work doesn't mean they are complaining about balance or even that there's a balance issue.
You don't seem to understand what i am talking about. I am not saying that the whole matchup is imbalanced when you cannot do X against Y. I am saying that if we look at IF you can do X vs Y it is basically like talking about balance. Does it work or does it not? How could i make it work? Players saying that X will never ever work against Y is nothing more than players saying X is op (in an overall sense). It's just an opinion and therefore nothing to base your arguments on necessarily.
TY will absolutely set the record for tournament earnings in a calendar year, he's only a few thousand dollars behind Byun's entire 2016 and it's only March.
He might even be the first to win $400k in a year playing SC2.
On March 06 2017 08:21 jalstar wrote: TY will absolutely set the record for tournament earnings in a calendar year, he's only a few thousand dollars behind Byun's entire 2016 and it's only March.
He might even be the first to win $400k in a year playing SC2.
Oh yeah he only has to do decently in the tournaments this year to get that tbh. Should be doable, that 200k tournament was op
On March 06 2017 08:21 jalstar wrote: TY will absolutely set the record for tournament earnings in a calendar year, he's only a few thousand dollars behind Byun's entire 2016 and it's only March.
He already has it, Byun earnt 306K last year.
TY has 300K already. He will get 5K when GSL S1 ends, and 10K for his spot at blizzcon. If he does nothing for the rest of the year he sets the record
On March 06 2017 03:03 stuchiu wrote: I can literally feel Olli's smugness and hatred across the globe.
I loved when they talked about how many great Terrans Korea produces, all of whom were nowhere near as good just a while ago.
I, also, found this humorous. "The four horsemen of Terran!!!"
Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
It's a good thing we don't have to wait another half-year for "the meta to stabilize" before getting some kind of change to help out.
On March 06 2017 09:21 Edowyth wrote: Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
Tbh I thought it was way worse during the match vs ByuN. Alchemik, very fittingly, said in the LR thread that if you only had audio for the series, you would have gotten the impression ByuN was destroying Stats.
Frankly this points more to an issue with the casting than anything to do with balance.
Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
It's a good thing we don't have to wait another half-year for "the meta to stabilize" before getting some kind of change to help out.
Casting != balance. Not saying the balance is perfect, but using the words of people who are speaking unscripted, who have their own subjective opinions, whose job it is to entertain, as an imbalance justification is really crappy evidence.
On the issue of TvP at the very highest levels, it seems to be just fine actually. Stats, the best Protoss in the world, beat INnoVation 3-2, ByuN 3-1, and lost to TY 3-4. He gives at least as good as he gets against the top Terrans. Saying that 4 > 1 is a specious argument, because if Stats can stand at that level of skill it means that it is possible for a Protoss player to stand at the very highest level of Starcraft. Meaning the race's skill ceiling is balanced.
On March 06 2017 09:21 Edowyth wrote: Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
Tbh I thought it was way worse during the match vs ByuN. Alchemik, very fittingly, said in the LR thread that if you only had audio for the series, you would have gotten the impression ByuN was destroying Stats.
Frankly this points more to an issue with the casting than anything to do with balance.
I don't think it's only bias tbf. Casters will almost always hype-up the aggressor more than the defender and in TvP the aggressor is usually the terran.
Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
It's a good thing we don't have to wait another half-year for "the meta to stabilize" before getting some kind of change to help out.
Casting != balance. Not saying the balance is perfect, but using the words of people who are speaking unscripted, who have their own subjective opinions, whose job it is to entertain, as an imbalance justification is really crappy evidence.
On the issue of TvP at the very highest levels, it seems to be just fine actually. Stats, the best Protoss in the world, beat INnoVation 3-2, ByuN 3-1, and lost to TY 3-4. He gives at least as good as he gets against the top Terrans. Saying that 4 > 1 is a specious argument, because if Stats can stand at that level of skill it means that it is possible for a Protoss player to stand at the very highest level of Starcraft. Meaning the race's skill ceiling is balanced.
Stats did well this tournament, but if you look at his recent performance against the top terrans he loses quite a bit more than he wins. Besides your argument is flawed. Fruitdealer winning the first GSL didn't mean that zerg wasn't woefully underpowered, and Taeja doing well during the blink stalker era didn't mean that TvP was balanced at all back then.
Great Finals, could have gone either way, But I felt Stats was too greedy in game 7, especially after scouting with his obs that TY had the set up for a mid game tank push. Great tournament though overall! Some sick sick matches. and great attendance both online and at the stadium..SC2 not DAED GAEM!! SC2 LIVES (matter!!!!!)!!
TY is hugely popular in Korea but probably a bit under the radar for the past few years for westerners because he almost never plays outside of Korea.
Yeah, the context was Tastosis hype, and Tastosis casts for a Western audience. To them, TY is the least-known top Terran. Koreans are a different story entirely.
Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
It's a good thing we don't have to wait another half-year for "the meta to stabilize" before getting some kind of change to help out.
Casting != balance. Not saying the balance is perfect, but using the words of people who are speaking unscripted, who have their own subjective opinions, whose job it is to entertain, as an imbalance justification is really crappy evidence.
On the issue of TvP at the very highest levels, it seems to be just fine actually. Stats, the best Protoss in the world, beat INnoVation 3-2, ByuN 3-1, and lost to TY 3-4. He gives at least as good as he gets against the top Terrans. Saying that 4 > 1 is a specious argument, because if Stats can stand at that level of skill it means that it is possible for a Protoss player to stand at the very highest level of Starcraft. Meaning the race's skill ceiling is balanced.
Stats did well this tournament, but if you look at his recent performance against the top terrans he loses quite a bit more than he wins. Besides your argument is flawed. Fruitdealer winning the first GSL didn't mean that zerg wasn't woefully underpowered, and Taeja doing well during the blink stalker era didn't mean that TvP was balanced at all back then.
It is actually an aspect of competitive starcraft I enjoy: a certain player shines because the entire race is lagging behind. Puzzle during terran 1/1/1 push era and DRG's performance during the early HotS MMMM parade push are some other great examples.
Stats did well this tournament, but if you look at his recent performance against the top terrans he loses quite a bit more than he wins. Besides your argument is flawed. Fruitdealer winning the first GSL didn't mean that zerg wasn't woefully underpowered, and Taeja doing well during the blink stalker era didn't mean that TvP was balanced at all back then.
I don't think you are giving enough credit to Stats's learning curve. From getting stomped by Inno 0-4 in December to beating him 3-2 in GSL two weeks ago is huge. His performance at IEM reflects just how far his TvP has come in a few months.
My point was that at the skill ceiling, that is, the very top of balance, Protoss is balanced. This is not necessarily true for all levels. Stats has shown he is more than capable of defeating top-tier Terran players.
On March 06 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: Casting != balance. Not saying the balance is perfect, but using the words of people who are speaking unscripted, who have their own subjective opinions, whose job it is to entertain, as an imbalance justification is really crappy evidence.
The evidence is really in the statistics surrounding PvT.
However, if Tasteosis (and others) are correct that there are far more "best terrans" than "best Xs", then that does point to a balance issue, given that one would naturally assume that players' skill is relatively evenly distributed across races at the top.
On March 06 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: On the issue of TvP at the very highest levels, it seems to be just fine actually. Stats, the best Protoss in the world, beat INnoVation 3-2, ByuN 3-1, and lost to TY 3-4. He gives at least as good as he gets against the top Terrans. Saying that 4 > 1 is a specious argument, because if Stats can stand at that level of skill it means that it is possible for a Protoss player to stand at the very highest level of Starcraft. Meaning the race's skill ceiling is balanced.
You're assuming a lot here. A single player winning does not a balance argument make.
Maybe Innovation and Byun had a bad day. What about all the other PvTs that you so immediately discard because the Protoss lost? Why did they lose? Was it because they played like Stats, but their opponents had a better plan against the play? Was it because of imbalance? Was it because of something else entirely?
The stats for the tournament are 31.4% of PvTs won. If that's not indicative of a problem, then someone has a lot of explaining to do to show how this is the case. As it is, we have some of the best Protoss players (Zest, herO, Stats, Patience [more up and down than the others, one must admit]) losing, obviously, in PvT. The variety of builds is extremely limited, the actual win-rates are very low, and the players are being eliminated from tournaments by this match-up.
Stats got to the finals (to be eliminated by a Terran). That's a long ways from the claim that "PvT is just fine".
But, hey, since it would appear that the WM change is going in soon, we'll easily be able to test your hypothesis that PvT is balanced currently -- if balance doesn't swing wildly in Protoss' favor after the change, then it would seem that the change did not affect the purported balance, or that the game isn't currently balanced.
You're assuming a lot here. A single player winning does not a balance argument make.
Maybe Innovation and Byun had a bad day. What about all the other PvTs that you so immediately discard because the Protoss lost? Why did they lose? Was it because they played like Stats, but their opponents had a better plan against the play? Was it because of imbalance? Was it because of something else entirely?
The stats for the tournament are 31.4% of PvTs won. If that's not indicative of a problem, then someone has a lot of explaining to do to show how this is the case. As it is, we have some of the best Protoss players (Zest, herO, Stats, Patience [more up and down than the others, one must admit]) losing, obviously, in PvT. The variety of builds is extremely limited, the actual win-rates are very low, and the players are being eliminated from tournaments by this match-up.
Stats got to the finals (to be eliminated by a Terran). That's a long ways from the claim that "PvT is just fine".
But, hey, since it would appear that the WM change is going in soon, we'll easily be able to test your hypothesis that PvT is balanced currently -- if balance doesn't swing wildly in Protoss' favor after the change, then it would seem that the change did not affect the purported balance, or that the game isn't currently balanced.
You are completely missing my point. I didn't say that PvT was perfectly balanced at all levels. I said that their skill ceilings were balanced (balanced at the very highest level). The highest potential of a Protoss player is approximately equal to that of a Terran one.
Everything you mentioned about winrates, about other players, about Terrans, and about widow mines is irrelevant to my point. I'm not talking about winrates or pro performances. I'm talking about potential, the theoretical maximum (that we currently know of) level of skill possible for any player to achieve with a particular race.
Sorry if I confused you because I think you were originally speaking about balance, and I commented about potential, so you may have missed the change of subject in my post.
Bottom line being, I'm not talking about "balance" (in the way people typically do around here), so perhaps I should have used another word like "equal" or something..
On March 06 2017 09:21 Edowyth wrote: Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
Tbh I thought it was way worse during the match vs ByuN. Alchemik, very fittingly, said in the LR thread that if you only had audio for the series, you would have gotten the impression ByuN was destroying Stats.
Frankly this points more to an issue with the casting than anything to do with balance.
Tastosis have always been biased in their casting. IEM Final was quite mild, actually (I didn't watch Byun v Stats). I can understand how annoying it can be. Artosis most guilty of hyperbolic fanboyism.
But interestingly enough, I believe they did liken Stats to Rain at the start of the series. Which is a great compliment, as far as Artosis is concerned (he's a big Rain fan). Rain has never been deeply loved by the Western community (not sure about Korean), so his fanboyism isn't just fixated on populism.
That said, I'm sure hyping up fan favourites is a big part of casting. That's what gets viewers hooked. Not just for SC2, but all sports in general (e.g. Messi will get more mentions in any Barcelona game, regardless of performance).
I watched CSGO as well and there was no hint of that. When TY distracted Stats' MSC with his reaper and dropped his mines at the same time, Artosis said "nobody can do this". Now at that point you're really going too far. Diamond level players can do that and it's actually almost offensive to all these other amazing players. Meanwhile in CSGO when dupreeh aced with a deagle, casters pointed out how awesome it was but never went further than that, and it felt so much more natural.
If everything or everyone is the best X in history or in the world, then that loses all meaning.
Congratulations to TY! As fan of Terran players I am really happy to see him win
That being said, I didn't enjoy watching this IEM. In my opinion the commentators were often too enthusiastic to the point of being silly and unprofessional - one example is what Olli mentions in his post right above this one. During this whole tournament I heard that everything they see is "the best", "seen for the first time" or commentators/experts were barely stopping themselves from saying so quickly adding "almost". In my opinion most of the games were chaotic, so many long and stupid ZvPs. TY vs Stats finals had exciting games, but games which where leaving me wondering "what a hell just happened?" - especially last game which IMO was more Stats loosing that TY winning.
And finally the formula of his IEM - more specifically, the 6-players group. Because of this solution we couldn't see most of the games. So much talking and analyzing and so many games played somewhere in the background.
For me SC2 at this moment is in some ridiculous place where most players don't know what they're doing. Chaos, experimenting, frustration because of balance state.
On March 06 2017 16:44 Olli wrote: I watched CSGO as well and there was no hint of that. When TY distracted Stats' MSC with his reaper and dropped his mines at the same time, Artosis said "nobody can do this". Now at that point you're really going too far. Diamond level players can do that and it's actually almost offensive to all these other amazing players. Meanwhile in CSGO when dupreeh aced with a deagle, casters pointed out how awesome it was but never went further than that, and it felt so much more natural.
If everything or everyone is the best X in history or in the world, then that loses all meaning.
^that! ...I usually love Tasteosis commenting archon but hearing the words "best of the world" every 3 sentences was kinda dumb and really killed the hype imo... I was watching it with my wife (who does not follow the scene at all) and after a while she said to me "are they going to say that forever?"... I know thay maybe it's not their "usual background" and commenting outside Korea, for such an important tournament, should make hype reach stellar levels but that got a bit annoying... you have to hype something when it is to be hyped, if you hype everything in every moment it's like not hyping anything (and it sounds dumb)...
On March 06 2017 17:06 Asturas wrote: And finally the formula of his IEM - more specifically, the 6-players group. Because of this solution we couldn't see most of the games. So much talking and analyzing and so many games played somewhere in the background.
...I liked the formula but they definitely needed another eng stream to cover at least 2 out of 3 games each time...
On March 06 2017 09:21 Edowyth wrote: Then there's the entire casting of the finals. Everything was "can Stats stand up to the awesomeness of TY???", "TY getting so much damage done!!!" (Stats killed more workers during that period and is ahead in economy and army ...), "TY is so good! But Stats is rebuffing him well!" I have mad respect for both Artosis and Tasteless but the casting was so blatantly favoring TY that I had a hard time listening to it during that series. I just had to watch the actual numbers and games themselves to judge for myself how things were going. And, well, if Tastetosis thinks that (by their own mouths) the "best Protoss in the world" has so little chance versus one of only 4 "best Terrans in the world", that speaks for itself regarding the actual balance at the top.
Tbh I thought it was way worse during the match vs ByuN. Alchemik, very fittingly, said in the LR thread that if you only had audio for the series, you would have gotten the impression ByuN was destroying Stats.
Frankly this points more to an issue with the casting than anything to do with balance.
I don't think it's only bias tbf. Casters will almost always hype-up the aggressor more than the defender and in TvP the aggressor is usually the terran.
I noticed this as well during TY's TvT games. TY generally went for a more defensive posture, with more tech, and especially more air units. Every time the casters would hype his opponents more, even though TY was working up to a more solid army overall. It makes sense, the aggressor is the one making the most moves that people can talk about, but that does not necessarily make them the superior player.
On March 06 2017 18:07 ejozl wrote: For biased casting look up Apollo&Artosis casting SoO vs TaejA
That was amazing. The entire cast felt like Artosis over-hyping everything soO does, while Apollo tried to make his idol not forget about TaeJa about once every 10 minutes. Still an extraordinary series, though.
On March 06 2017 18:07 ejozl wrote: For biased casting look up Apollo&Artosis casting SoO vs TaejA
That was amazing. The entire cast felt like Artosis over-hyping everything soO does, while Apollo tried to make his idol not forget about TaeJa about once every 10 minutes. Still an extraordinary series, though.
That was the funniest cast ever imo... "Whoever thinks soO is not winning Blizzcon is a fool" - eliminated 5 minutes later
On March 06 2017 16:44 Olli wrote: I watched CSGO as well and there was no hint of that. When TY distracted Stats' MSC with his reaper and dropped his mines at the same time, Artosis said "nobody can do this". Now at that point you're really going too far. Diamond level players can do that and it's actually almost offensive to all these other amazing players. Meanwhile in CSGO when dupreeh aced with a deagle, casters pointed out how awesome it was but never went further than that, and it felt so much more natural.
If everything or everyone is the best X in history or in the world, then that loses all meaning.
Tasteless kept saying player X is in the best form he ever has been in his career in this tournament :D
On March 06 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: Casting != balance. Not saying the balance is perfect, but using the words of people who are speaking unscripted, who have their own subjective opinions, whose job it is to entertain, as an imbalance justification is really crappy evidence.
The evidence is really in the statistics surrounding PvT.
However, if Tasteosis (and others) are correct that there are far more "best terrans" than "best Xs", then that does point to a balance issue, given that one would naturally assume that players' skill is relatively evenly distributed across races at the top.
On March 06 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: On the issue of TvP at the very highest levels, it seems to be just fine actually. Stats, the best Protoss in the world, beat INnoVation 3-2, ByuN 3-1, and lost to TY 3-4. He gives at least as good as he gets against the top Terrans. Saying that 4 > 1 is a specious argument, because if Stats can stand at that level of skill it means that it is possible for a Protoss player to stand at the very highest level of Starcraft. Meaning the race's skill ceiling is balanced.
You're assuming a lot here. A single player winning does not a balance argument make.
Maybe Innovation and Byun had a bad day. What about all the other PvTs that you so immediately discard because the Protoss lost? Why did they lose? Was it because they played like Stats, but their opponents had a better plan against the play? Was it because of imbalance? Was it because of something else entirely?
The stats for the tournament are 31.4% of PvTs won. If that's not indicative of a problem, then someone has a lot of explaining to do to show how this is the case. As it is, we have some of the best Protoss players (Zest, herO, Stats, Patience [more up and down than the others, one must admit]) losing, obviously, in PvT. The variety of builds is extremely limited, the actual win-rates are very low, and the players are being eliminated from tournaments by this match-up.
Stats got to the finals (to be eliminated by a Terran). That's a long ways from the claim that "PvT is just fine".
But, hey, since it would appear that the WM change is going in soon, we'll easily be able to test your hypothesis that PvT is balanced currently -- if balance doesn't swing wildly in Protoss' favor after the change, then it would seem that the change did not affect the purported balance, or that the game isn't currently balanced.
TY/INno/ByuN Maru/Ryung/aLive
Stats/herO/sOs/Zest Classic/Trap
Dark/sOo/ByuL/Solar Losira/Leenock
There are as many top and subtop players for each race.
I felt a lot of terrans play tvp these days with bio + widowmines + some liberators later on to counter heavy phoenix+adept combo of protosses.
Stats countered that play with his more technical unit combo with sometimes Robo units and nice transitioning, basically never getting stuck to phoenix+adept. His play vs Byun was quite convincing.
This is when TY's very technical push with tanks, bunker, turrets and ravens of all units was a very smart play of countering Stats and Stats did not find an immediate answer to that.
However, if Tasteosis (and others) are correct that there are far more "best terrans" than "best Xs", then that does point to a balance issue, given that one would naturally assume that players' skill is relatively evenly distributed across races at the top.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything else you said, but I think this is a terrible assumption to make. Given the vary small sample size of Korean pros, I don't think it's that unlikely for the distribution of the best players to be uneven among the races. This is clearly a thing in the foreign scene, with a disproportionate number of the top players being zerg.
However, if Tasteosis (and others) are correct that there are far more "best terrans" than "best Xs", then that does point to a balance issue, given that one would naturally assume that players' skill is relatively evenly distributed across races at the top.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything else you said, but I think this is a terrible assumption to make. Given the vary small sample size of Korean pros, I don't think it's that unlikely for the distribution of the best players to be uneven among the races. This is clearly a thing in the foreign scene, with a disproportionate number of the top players being zerg.
Yes this is very likely, people underestimate how much idols skew the player base. The easiest example is how MoonGlaDe was the single best frontrunner for Australia and has therefore greatly influenced the player base so much that the amount of Zerg players from Australia heavily outnumbered the other races. Another example is BoXeR and the SlayerS Terrans, yes Terran was strong in the early WoL days, but so many Terran players have come from watching these guys play. Then when the Kespa guys switched this happened again, but with Protoss. Now Terran is back and I think it is a bit fishy seeing as Protoss was the most representated race at high levels from Korea in HotS, but still no doubt that ByuN and TY have had great impact on the player base.
I think them hyping Terrans alot has more to do with how the races work in general. It's easier to go crazy on the guy who attacks on three fronts than on the guy that defends that perfectly with positioning. Pretty sure I remember casters going similar into hypemode on Protosses when they had more early/midgame attack variants like the blink all ins. Right now Protoss playstyle just doesnt seem to have these micro intensive options, at least not easily visible micro stuff. It basically has to go to Disruptors for the casters to get louder. Also Toss harass is mostly suiciding units into workers, whereas Terran harass always has the goal to not waste own units. Just how the races work I know you cant load in 12 adepts in a WP to escape. Overall I believe Terran is the race that the majority of ppl enjoy observing the most. Could be wrong there ofc, but TvZ was considered the best matchup for quite some time and if I had to rate the matchups right now top 3 would all involve T with the mirror in 3rd place.
Loved this IEM. Great production, lots of players, lots of games, good casters even starting to like Maynard^^ and just well done ESL.
Dang, gotta feel bad for Zerg, not only are they just weak in the metagame right now but Innovation and TY are just Zerg killing machines even when the match up is balanced.
Hopefully the buffs/nerfs go through soon, not taking anything away from the 2 best Terrans in the world who played awesome but watching Zerg and Protoss get rofl stomped again again despite good play is only fun for Terrans. Guess a few tank buffs did the trick
On March 07 2017 01:59 jpg06051992 wrote: Dang, gotta feel bad for Zerg, not only are they just weak in the metagame right now but Innovation and TY are just Zerg killing machines even when the match up is balanced.
Hopefully the buffs/nerfs go through soon, not taking anything away from the 2 best Terrans in the world who played awesome but watching Zerg and Protoss get rofl stomped again again despite good play is only fun for Terrans. Guess a few tank buffs did the trick
after all that ryung is the last terran in gsl lol, the bias is real.
SOMEONE ANSWER: @TeamLiquid Hide Spoiler feature. Is that intended to work for the first 24 hrs after the event ends? It works for me for a day or 2 then it shows who won the tournament I can't even come to this site anymore without watching the VOD first.
On March 07 2017 05:15 ProBell wrote: SOMEONE ANSWER: @TeamLiquid Hide Spoiler feature. Is that intended to work for the first 24 hrs after the event ends? It works for me for a day or 2 then it shows who won the tournament I can't even come to this site anymore without watching the VOD first.
How about the gap between Korean and foreigner considered all the performances in this tournament ? I think it's even bigger than it was back to pre Blizzcon.
On March 07 2017 15:23 ParksonVN wrote: How about the gap between Korean and foreigner considered all the performances in this tournament ? I think it's even bigger than it was back to pre Blizzcon.
Considering who was beaten and by whom, no, foreigners performed significantly better. There were some wins and some very close sets with Koreans and foreigners in this tournament. It's helped by having way more games, but at Blizzcon there were around 13 wins, and only 6-10 of those wins I would consider impressive.
Here, you have Serral, Harstem, and Showtime performing well (despite losing their series) against top Koreans not to mention a lot of wins by foreigners against mid-Koreans like TRUE or Patience.
It is true that they got shredded in the playoffs, but that's still par for the course before and after Blizzcon (with the exception of Neeb in KeSPA cup).
Same here. 24 hours or whatever it is currently is not enough.
I came in here earlier today and saw a few spoilered headlines. I came back just now looking for info on something else, and suddenly the IEM finals results was un-spoilered. I thought I'd be safe. Was looking forward to watching the VODs during my lunch break, but now the fun is gone.
Dear TL, please extend the spoiler tag life to at least 3-5 days.
VODs like this are GOLD. For your business, for SC2, for the viewers, for the players...for everyone. Having a fresh result spoiled is a tangible loss of value.
And yes I know, I should know better, not go into TL at all when I know there's a fresh result out that I don't want to have spoiled...
The problem is that by that token I'd be locked out of TL 50% of the time because there are many tournaments I care about that I just can't watch live due to work, everyday life, etc.
And so, the spoiler tag is genius. If it'd be allowed to live long enough to actually serve its purpose.
Honestly though it would be easier to just not spoil results at all in your side menu headlines. Why is it actually necessary to do that? Why do you have to reveal the player names? Isn't "IEM Katowice Final Results - Day 6 Recap" hot enough a title? And then you could use TY's name in the title on top of the actual article.
I don't know, it seems like a lot of trouble just to be able to post the winners' names in the side menu headlines... So unnecessary IMO.
I cheered for TY, but I have to admit how well did aLive play. But in mirror matches, anything is possible, no matter if you win against Inno, this doesn't mean that you are invulnerable. Stats really deserves a title too, but he still has the change for a GSL triumph, so nothing is over for him yet. One of the shocks was really how poor Zest played against TY with his gate middle and late games.
And yet again i got hugely spoilered by TL on a major tournament just by going to the frontpage....right in the middle, was the first thing i saw... I guess i´m just not gonna visit the site anymore for a week after a major until i could catch up on the vods.
On March 08 2017 07:57 Samba wrote: And yet again i got hugely spoilered by TL on a major tournament just by going to the frontpage....right in the middle, was the first thing i saw... I guess i´m just not gonna visit the site anymore for a week after a major until i could catch up on the vods.
On March 08 2017 02:15 Veluvian wrote: I cheered for TY, but I have to admit how well did aLive play. But in mirror matches, anything is possible, no matter if you win against Inno, this doesn't mean that you are invulnerable. Stats really deserves a title too, but he still has the change for a GSL triumph, so nothing is over for him yet. One of the shocks was really how poor Zest played against TY with his gate middle and late games.
I think what Zest wanted was to mind game TY. Surely anyone would transition out of Adept+Phoenix, then when TY moves out, Zest can jump on top of the army and instantly win the game. I don't think what we saw was anything like Zest's standard late game PvT. I think he makes a lot of decisions during a game and this can both be a brilliant reward, if he out thinks his opponent, but it can also backfire and make him look quite dumb.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/IEMKatow2017/n-vQTMHn/i-czXwhJq/0/X3/i-czXwhJq-X3.jpg)
TY’s liberator harass dealing far more economic damage than 
Stats go for a carrier rush—the first time we’ve seen it from him this tournament—but 
Dark countered it beautifully. Constant runbys kept Stats wary, while a mass spore wall was constructed and slowly pushed into the centre of the map. In the first (and last) big fight, Dark crushed the army, pouncing on Stats’ positional error to abduct the mothership and force a recall, before routing the remnants of the army. Game 2 on Newkirk featured a far more aggressive start—constant waves of ravager / ling / bane crashing into Stats’ base setup, with the protoss holding on by the skin of his teeth on each occasion—but it too was destined to go all the way to the endgame. As both players mined out, the game centred around a single remaining base on Stats’ side of the map. Dark desperately tried to hold it, surrounding it with his entire army, but Stats crushed through with his skytoss armada and endless storm support.
![[image loading]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/IEMKatow2017/n-vQTMHn/i-RbLfdw6/0/X2/i-RbLfdw6-X2.jpg)
