On February 21 2017 07:42 Zweck wrote: Wow so we have a map that has an untakeable gas in the finalists. Gas problem is still in the TLMC released official Version. So the map never got played bye the mapmaker, and neither by the judges.. still gets to finalists.. ez
Curious to get any feedback on my Battle on the Boardwalk submission. I spent probably the most time on that map out of all my submissions and I thought it was a fairly strong contender. At first I thought maybe because the rush distance was too short but after seeing other maps in the pool that can't be the case.
The whole ling/bling thing I kinda of get, although rallying through the backdoor seriously takes like 90 seconds main to main so I don't see that being as much of an issue. The front boardwalk I see possibly being a little difficult for a protoss to take an early game, but honestly since it's a "rush" map they shouldn't really be gateway > nexus > core first anyway. Then I see the other rush maps, 18 second rush distance with a backdoor in the main (same problem as boardwalk?) and a two entrance natural 3 spawn map with massive positional imbalance really does make me question!
I guess I can't be too upset since I have two other maps in, but just curious more or less especially since I mainly only got really good feedback from everybody in the discord and everybody in the TLMC submissions thread.
On February 21 2017 09:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Curious to get any feedback on my Battle on the Boardwalk submission. I spent probably the most time on that map out of all my submissions and I thought it was a fairly strong contender. At first I thought maybe because the rush distance was too short but after seeing other maps in the pool that can't be the case.
I only played 1 game on it against Ej, but I really liked the map (both aesthetically and from the gameplay) and I was genuinely upset when I saw it wasn't among the finalists. This is actually one of the only Rush Map submissions I saw that I really wanted to play on.
And lord knows I'll play a thousand games on Boardwalk before I touch Eremita again.
On February 20 2017 18:40 PengWin_SC wrote: I really appreciate you and Kantuva (on reddit) taking the time to have this kind of a debate. A fair bit of my experience with some mappers over the past year (most recently, Sunshine's not-so-veiled comment on the other thread saying that Avex and I are friends, Avex got 4 maps in, clearly rigged) has been insult ridden "arguments" rather than actual attempts to see each others' point of view. I think this kind of stuff is important and hopefully we can improve the format going forward.
Edit: added a point about Boardwalk
I want to apologize for that, I'm recognizing that I get emotional about the results of the TLMC, and as a result I want to find fault with whatever I can, but posts like that aren't doing me or anyone any favors. I agree about trying to move forward with more productive discussion. And I really appreciate the posts you've been making in this thread, having that kind of illumination on the judging process - though incomplete - is great. And though I have maps I personally would rather see as finalists, I can accept these results, and will simply try to do better next time. Sorry if I soured your impression of me or the community in any way.
I appreciate the apology. I understand the frustration of a lot of people with this TLMC, and trust me when I say I share the sentiment when it comes to the timeframe. In the last TLMC, I had time to play games on every one of the reasonable maps before making a judgment, but this time there just wasn't time to play on almost any of them (I played a couple games and offered fix ideas like making the natural ramps a little more narrow on Maxwell Platform, etc.). It's a real shame that issues like the gases on Blood Boil made it through, but there just wasn't enough time to properly test.
All of this discussion on maps that did make it in vs maps that didn't is also really good. It's good to have a lot of viewpoints on them going forward. As was mentioned, the forcefields on Geumsangsan were supposed to disappear after X minutes, making it more viable, but I also agreed on the fact that forcefields should show on the minimap and pointed that out a couple days ago. I hope that can be fixed.
I still remain optimistic about the new map pool, because there are a fair few really great maps in here, and nothing can be worse than this current map pool (except Abyssal Reef. Whoever made that, you're great!)
On February 20 2017 18:40 PengWin_SC wrote: I really appreciate you and Kantuva (on reddit) taking the time to have this kind of a debate. A fair bit of my experience with some mappers over the past year (most recently, Sunshine's not-so-veiled comment on the other thread saying that Avex and I are friends, Avex got 4 maps in, clearly rigged) has been insult ridden "arguments" rather than actual attempts to see each others' point of view. I think this kind of stuff is important and hopefully we can improve the format going forward.
Edit: added a point about Boardwalk
I want to apologize for that, I'm recognizing that I get emotional about the results of the TLMC, and as a result I want to find fault with whatever I can, but posts like that aren't doing me or anyone any favors. I agree about trying to move forward with more productive discussion. And I really appreciate the posts you've been making in this thread, having that kind of illumination on the judging process - though incomplete - is great. And though I have maps I personally would rather see as finalists, I can accept these results, and will simply try to do better next time. Sorry if I soured your impression of me or the community in any way.
I appreciate the apology. I understand the frustration of a lot of people with this TLMC, and trust me when I say I share the sentiment when it comes to the timeframe. In the last TLMC, I had time to play games on every one of the reasonable maps before making a judgment, but this time there just wasn't time to play on almost any of them (I played a couple games and offered fix ideas like making the natural ramps a little more narrow on Maxwell Platform, etc.). It's a real shame that issues like the gases on Blood Boil made it through, but there just wasn't enough time to properly test.
All of this discussion on maps that did make it in vs maps that didn't is also really good. It's good to have a lot of viewpoints on them going forward. As was mentioned, the forcefields on Geumsangsan were supposed to disappear after X minutes, making it more viable, but I also agreed on the fact that forcefields should show on the minimap and pointed that out a couple days ago. I hope that can be fixed.
I still remain optimistic about the new map pool, because there are a fair few really great maps in here, and nothing can be worse than this current map pool (except Abyssal Reef. Whoever made that, you're great!)
Making the forcefields appear on the minimap and through the FOW is easily done. The map's other problems are not so easily fixed.
There's a neutral supply depot. Rush distance is small, but I assume you all know how to wall?
to put this into perspective, imagine if steppes of war was still in the map pool but the main also had an open backdoor. this map is actually smaller than that.
On February 21 2017 09:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Curious to get any feedback on my Battle on the Boardwalk submission. I spent probably the most time on that map out of all my submissions and I thought it was a fairly strong contender. At first I thought maybe because the rush distance was too short but after seeing other maps in the pool that can't be the case.
The whole ling/bling thing I kinda of get, although rallying through the backdoor seriously takes like 90 seconds main to main so I don't see that being as much of an issue. The front boardwalk I see possibly being a little difficult for a protoss to take an early game, but honestly since it's a "rush" map they shouldn't really be gateway > nexus > core first anyway. Then I see the other rush maps, 18 second rush distance with a backdoor in the main (same problem as boardwalk?) and a two entrance natural 3 spawn map with massive positional imbalance really does make me question!
I guess I can't be too upset since I have two other maps in, but just curious more or less especially since I mainly only got really good feedback from everybody in the discord and everybody in the TLMC submissions thread.
Personally I really like Battle on the Boardwalk and would love to play on it. I think if 1 Tumour + Evo chamber is enough to block the back path, it can at least be dealt with.
On February 21 2017 09:09 SidianTheBard wrote: Curious to get any feedback on my Battle on the Boardwalk submission. I spent probably the most time on that map out of all my submissions and I thought it was a fairly strong contender. At first I thought maybe because the rush distance was too short but after seeing other maps in the pool that can't be the case.
The whole ling/bling thing I kinda of get, although rallying through the backdoor seriously takes like 90 seconds main to main so I don't see that being as much of an issue. The front boardwalk I see possibly being a little difficult for a protoss to take an early game, but honestly since it's a "rush" map they shouldn't really be gateway > nexus > core first anyway. Then I see the other rush maps, 18 second rush distance with a backdoor in the main (same problem as boardwalk?) and a two entrance natural 3 spawn map with massive positional imbalance really does make me question!
I guess I can't be too upset since I have two other maps in, but just curious more or less especially since I mainly only got really good feedback from everybody in the discord and everybody in the TLMC submissions thread.
dude this map looks dope! I can't believe it wasn't selected, such a fine work of art.
Acolyte: The bush at the third base should be removed. It doesn't do anything but clip the CC/Nexus/Hatch model.
Asteroid Barricade: The 2 collapsible rocks on the high ground at the north and south can be attacked by melee units in certain positions
Hwangsan: There is too much grass doodads at the grassy north and south base. When warping in buildings, the grass doodads disintegrating causes a big FPS spike.
Paradise Lost: The "Narrow Passage" mechanic is bizarre and pointless. It also doesn't work without a flying unit nearby (the worker refuses to mine and goes back because the worker is out of vision due to the smoke). There is no reason to even have such a blockage: if a player can access any one of these 3 back bases (e.g. by drops), they already have the means to access all.
Keres Passage: This map gives me motion sickness. Please significantly slow down the background motion, and improve the texture quality of the background (currently it looks like a big messy brown sheet).
On February 21 2017 19:23 paralleluniverse wrote: Acolyte: The bush at the third base should be removed. It doesn't do anything but clip the CC/Nexus/Hatch model.
Asteroid Barricade: The ramp down from the top natural is unpathable. The 2 collapsible rocks on the high ground at the north and south can be attacked by melee units in certain positions
Hwangsan: There is too much grass doodads at the grassy north and south base. When warping in buildings, the grass doodads disintegrating causes a big FPS spike.
Paradise Lost: The "Narrow Passage" mechanic is bizarre and pointless. It also doesn't work without a flying unit nearby (the worker refuses to mine and goes back because the worker is out of vision due to the smoke). There is no reason to even have such a blockage: if a player can access any one of these 3 back bases (e.g. by drops), they already have the means to access all.
Keres Passage: This map gives me motion sickness. Please significantly slow down the background motion, and improve the texture quality of the background (currently it looks like a big messy brown sheet).
thank you for giving feedback on the issues on Asteroid Barricade.
Pathing issue on main/natural ramp: I was able to 'reproduce the problem' ingame (or what i think you saw), but when checking the file in the editor i could not find any pathing information to be different than usual. the plant here was created as foliage in the editor and doe snot have a footprint, hence should not interact with the pathing of units. but apparently it does. since i cannot find anything in the editor what could actually cause such a problem i will just rebuild the section and re-generate the foliage and will check if that will solve it.
edit: i took away any foliage in that area and the worker unit would walk down the ramp exactly the same. probably it was coincidence how the deco and the pathing seemed to correlate. So maybe you were talking about another thing?
so far i could not find any pathing problems on the current map file. It would be very kind if you could send a more precise desription or a screenshot of the problem. cheers!
The rock towers both work exactly the same, so this is not an issue per se. but you are right it would seem logical, if only air units would be able to attack by the looks of it.
On February 21 2017 19:23 paralleluniverse wrote: Acolyte: The bush at the third base should be removed. It doesn't do anything but clip the CC/Nexus/Hatch model.
Asteroid Barricade: The ramp down from the top natural is unpathable. The 2 collapsible rocks on the high ground at the north and south can be attacked by melee units in certain positions
Hwangsan: There is too much grass doodads at the grassy north and south base. When warping in buildings, the grass doodads disintegrating causes a big FPS spike.
Paradise Lost: The "Narrow Passage" mechanic is bizarre and pointless. It also doesn't work without a flying unit nearby (the worker refuses to mine and goes back because the worker is out of vision due to the smoke). There is no reason to even have such a blockage: if a player can access any one of these 3 back bases (e.g. by drops), they already have the means to access all.
Keres Passage: This map gives me motion sickness. Please significantly slow down the background motion, and improve the texture quality of the background (currently it looks like a big messy brown sheet).
thank you for giving feedback on the issues on Asteroid Barricade.
Pathing issue on main/natural ramp: I was able to 'reproduce the problem' ingame (or what i think you saw), but when checking the file in the editor i could not find any pathing information to be different than usual. the plant here was created as foliage in the editor and doe snot have a footprint, hence should not interact with the pathing of units. but apparently it does. since i cannot find anything in the editor what could actually cause such a problem i will just rebuild the section and re-generate the foliage and will check if that will solve it.
edit: i took away any foliage in that area and the worker unit would walk down the ramp exactly the same. probably it was coincidence how the deco and the pathing seemed to correlate. So maybe you were talking about another thing?
so far i could not find any pathing problems on the current map file. It would be very kind if you could send a more precise desription or a screenshot of the problem. cheers!
The rock towers both work exactly the same, so this is not an issue per se. but you are right it would seem logical, if only air units would be able to attack by the looks of it.
Sorry, ignore the comment about the unpathable ramp. It was an issue when I tried the map on the first day of the BTTV tournament and it was mentioned on stream too, but the issue appears to be fixed on the latest version of the map.
Just gonna post this and remove a couple of things that might give away this posters identity, but he's completely correct with this statement and he's someone who is entitled to an opinion on map making.
"The map contest was a joke.. It was completely rushed, and therefore many submissions were rushed and not tested at all. Judges were given 3 days to just the maps which later turned into less than 24 hours. Basetrade TV leaked half of the finalists before the results were actually posted.
It is appalling that judges would choose a worker all-in map like Eremita over something more efficient. My map, <deleted> was an aggressive rush/macro map that was "too standard" over the "interesting" ones you see as a finalist. We've been reduced to all-ins and that is exactly what we've been trying to get away from.
Fun fact - Eremita was created in a single afternoon and had no testing before submission, and lo and behold it's a finalist.
This TLMC was a big step backwards compared to TLMC7.
Hope TLMC 9 is better."
Teamliquid you either need to up your judging standards, increase the time that the contestants are allowed, or both, because this is overwhelmingly the worst TLMC yet, compare these to the earlier TLMC's and they just look amateur.
@starcraft2lotv2016 i agree that is a good map. A lot of the Meavis maps linked above are also very nice and well thought out. I think a few extremely polished and balanced concepts got cut just because of the category caps and distribution. It seems like the more safe/conservative/traditional ones got got devalued (which i guess is fair considering the crazy categories).
Hopefully they resubmit them next contest and there are more categories (or at least heavier distribution) targeted at "traditional and balanced" since those consistently provide the best gameplay sc2 was built for. Fresh concepts are important for sure, but that can be done without perma-forcefield walls with race balance issues, 15 second rush distances and awkwardly-pathed air blockers imo.
There are some good maps that made the cut tho, so thats good at least :3
Fun fact - Eremita was created in a single afternoon and had no testing before submission, and lo and behold it's a finalist.
Not going to bother with anything else in your post but once you get good at map making it's fairly easy to make a rather quick and decent looking map in a day. Ascension to Aiur I made from completely scratch to what you see in this tournament in about 4 or 5 hours. And hell, probably 2 of those hours I was quite drunk when creating it. It's about as standard of a map as you can get. Which is weird for me since usually I never do 100% standard for the most part (read my signature for my other famous maps)
Battle on the Boardwalk I did in about ~6 hours or so. Abyssal Reef took longer just because the aesthetics on that map were ridiculous but still from nothing to where you see now I'd say maybe 12 hours at most? Habitation Station, my "first" super popular map took the longest because that was like 4 years ago and I wasn't as proficient in the editor then as I am now. Any recent map, getting the layout & to make it look good can be done so quickly now a day if you know what you're doing.
Fun fact - Eremita was created in a single afternoon and had no testing before submission, and lo and behold it's a finalist.
Not going to bother with anything else in your post but once you get good at map making it's fairly easy to make a rather quick and decent looking map in a day. Ascension to Aiur I made from completely scratch to what you see in this tournament in about 4 or 5 hours. And hell, probably 2 of those hours I was quite drunk when creating it. It's about as standard of a map as you can get. Which is weird for me since usually I never do 100% standard for the most part (read my signature for my other famous maps)
Battle on the Boardwalk I did in about ~6 hours or so. Abyssal Reef took longer just because the aesthetics on that map were ridiculous but still from nothing to where you see now I'd say maybe 12 hours at most? Habitation Station, my "first" super popular map took the longest because that was like 4 years ago and I wasn't as proficient in the editor then as I am now. Any recent map, getting the layout & to make it look good can be done so quickly now a day if you know what you're doing.
How quickly a map is made versus making one for the purpose of clean and efficient balance are two different things. I can understand maps not being tested, but to create a map in such a time frame that there's little to no thought process behind it - purely to just add to the submission count - is what's irritating. It was literally a "well I got room for one more submission I'll just throw some quick stuff together just so I'm maxed out."
The fact your map was made and made finalist while you were drunk is even more ridiculous but that's just my personal opinion. Of course, the judges don't know that so it's really a mapper-to-mapper inquiry really. I don't blame the judges per se, it's just mind boggling how niche mapmaking can be to a point where you can half ass a project, literally, and still succeed.
The logic becomes irrelevant when you're a finalist because now you just want to make it more playable, and I get that. I've been there. But it is true to a degree.
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