EPTSounds fantastic. A base you can't access until you make a unit you don't want? Sign me up.
Teamliquid Map Contest 8 Results - Page 2
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Elentos
55594 Posts
Sounds fantastic. A base you can't access until you make a unit you don't want? Sign me up. | ||
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PengWin_SC
Switzerland433 Posts
On February 20 2017 18:54 -NegativeZero- wrote: @pengwin: eremita also has 2 open entrances to the main and it made it in, just saying Yeah, Eremita did not get a yes vote from me. The difference there is that the high ground advantage for the defender makes it something of a different beast to Boardwalk. I'm still not comfortable with it, but it's not quite the same. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On February 20 2017 17:04 Fatam wrote: Well said Ziggurat. Especially great points regarding the force field map. I think there is another map or two you could include in the questionable category, but you more or less covered it. I also think there were some serious snubs. If we only address the Rush Category, let me show you all the maps (that I've seen) that I think were more qualified than 2 out of the 3 Rush finalists, or maybe even 3/3: Exosphere by NegativeZero http://i.imgur.com/6LrxnZo.jpg Battle on the Boardwalk by SidianTheBard http://i.imgur.com/5oTk0JA.jpg Cloud City by Namrufus http://i.imgur.com/heBDDsVl.jpg Harmonize by me http://i.imgur.com/koxopo5.jpg Yes, I believe ALL of those Rush maps are better than 2, maybe 3 of the 3 Rush finalists. And there's some others I would include too but I wasn't sure if their authors submitted them as Rush, such as KTV Aurora and one of timmay's. Totally agreed with this. All of the maps in the New and Experimental category are terrible with the exception of Paradise Lost, which needs to lose the bizarre "mining in the narrow path" mechanic (WTF). I like Acolyte (the bush at the 3rd needs to be removed), Ascension to Aiur, Hwangsan, but these are all quite standard, and Hunger Game. Many of the better maps or more interesting maps got robbed such as Exosphere, Ophilia, Harmonize, Broken Earth, Aurora, Fridge, Dark Stone. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On February 20 2017 18:59 PengWin_SC wrote: Yeah, Eremita did not get a yes vote from me. The difference there is that the high ground advantage for the defender makes it something of a different beast to Boardwalk. I'm still not comfortable with it, but it's not quite the same. glad to see some of the judges had some sense on that... personally i think eremita's backdoor is worse than boardwalk since the rush distance is shorter, and it's much easier to switch attack paths (on boardwalk you have to commit to attacking the backdoor all the way from your own main) | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:02 -NegativeZero- wrote: glad to see some of the judges had some sense on that... personally i think eremita's backdoor is worse than boardwalk since the rush distance is shorter, and it's much easier to switch attack paths (on boardwalk you have to commit to attacking the backdoor all the way from your own main) Eremita also has one of the shortest rush distances of all time through the front, it really doesn't do anyone any favors that it also has a backdoor into the main. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:06 Elentos wrote: Eremita also has one of the shortest rush distances of all time through the front, it really doesn't do anyone any favors that it also has a backdoor into the main. Yeah, agreed. I get that it's a rush map so it fits the theme, but for THAT short of a rush distance you have to have something defensive to compensate. Instead, it has another offensive thing.. lol | ||
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PengWin_SC
Switzerland433 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:02 -NegativeZero- wrote: glad to see some of the judges had some sense on that... personally i think eremita's backdoor is worse than boardwalk since the rush distance is shorter, and it's much easier to switch attack paths (on boardwalk you have to commit to attacking the backdoor all the way from your own main) Definitely a valid point, however with the position of the debris/neutral depot on Eremita, it's also worth considering that there's substantially less surface area to attack the defending building, and it can actually be walled in by a single unit (I.E. a Zealot), unlike on Boardwalk (images below). Edit: The Core/Gateway wall to the top in the image is also a full wall in + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bWkEBWq.jpg) | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
I don't think it's a bad map by any means but I was very surprised to see it in the finals. | ||
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PengWin_SC
Switzerland433 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:11 Elentos wrote: Also was the "Experimental Resource" category a bit on the weak side? Ej_ and I played on Blood Boil, and it really didn't feel particularly special. Did it just not have enough good competition in this category? I don't think it's a bad map by any means but I was very surprised to see it in the finals. Yes, it was. For reference, it only had 14 submissions, compared to 41, 32 and 24 in Macro, Rush and New respectively. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:11 Elentos wrote: Also was the "Experimental Resource" category a bit on the weak side? Ej_ and I played on Blood Boil, and it really didn't feel particularly special. Did it just not have enough good competition in this category? I don't think it's a bad map by any means but I was very surprised to see it in the finals. yes, only 14 submissions according to the OP. the problem was the short timespan, this category was announced out of the blue with ~10 days until the deadline. modifying resource values has never been allowed so nobody had existing maps to submit in this category, and we haven't even thought about how this could affect maps so a lot of people just stuck to what they know. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
For instance, can Z really take a third without having to build a bit of an army first on Hunger Game? Whereas T or P getting a nat is no prob, so Z is automatically behind in any game in which they don't 2 base all-in. Maxwell Platform I think huge asymmetry probably trumps any other issue. If someone gets middle spawn instead of cross spawns then the middle spawn definitely has an advantage, no question about it. I think everyone has said their piece on Eremita so no need there. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
[...]maps will be passed to representatives from the Team Liquid Strategy team and selected professional players/community figures for judging I am just curious, who was involved in the judging phase? | ||
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PengWin_SC
Switzerland433 Posts
On February 20 2017 19:21 Fatam wrote: About to go to bed, but just one thing I wanted to add since I was thinking about it - Yes some of the maps I linked, you detailed your problems with, and I agreed with some of your points - yet the rush maps that made finalist have arguably much larger, gamebreaking issues and you guys let them in. For instance, can Z really take a third without having to build a bit of an army first on Hunger Game? Whereas T or P getting a nat is no prob, so Z is automatically behind in any game in which they don't 2 base all-in. Maxwell Platform I think huge asymmetry probably trumps any other issue. If someone gets middle spawn instead of cross spawns then the middle spawn definitely has an advantage, no question about it. I think everyone has said their piece on Eremita so no need there. Regarding Maxwell, I thought it was an interesting map that should be seen play out. My biggest qualm initially was that the natural ramps were too wide, but we had that fixed. There could well be issues with it, but given the time constraints, we weren't able to properly test it. Hunger Game I think is difficult for Zerg to take a 3rd on, but not to the extent of Exosphere. I would categorize Hunger Game as a map that is unfavorable for Zerg, but not unreasonably so (such as Frozen Temple). I actually think the location of the third makes some forms of harass that are difficult to deal with easier to handle, such as Liberators needing to siege up inside the main and being easily dealt with by Queens. Drops will be hard, but with the safe natural, if we're looking at, for example, a standard 2-1-1, you aren't going to have Drones there anyway, and with how open the area is around the third, it's easy to take good engagements with Zerglings. With Exosphere, you can't even plant a hatchery down vs Terran until your speed kicks in because the lings will take so long to run around to deal with a reaper just sitting there. | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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PengWin_SC
Switzerland433 Posts
On February 20 2017 20:13 -NegativeZero- wrote: @pengwin: kind of irrelevant but i'm wondering why you think the 3rds on exosphere, which can be connected to the nat with 2 creep tumors, are so difficult for z compared to other standard maps with a similar linear 3 base layout such as overgrowth. My issue with the base layout of Exosphere is that the 10/4 o'clock bases aren't viable 3rd bases for Zerg when they're so easily assaulted by a 3 base push from the other races since they're super close to the opponent's 3rd. I'd be uncomfortable even taking at as 4th base, it'd be my natural 5th base. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On February 20 2017 20:16 PengWin_SC wrote: My issue with the base layout of Exosphere is that the 10/4 o'clock bases aren't viable 3rd bases for Zerg when they're so easily assaulted by a 3 base push from the other races since they're super close to the opponent's 3rd. I'd be uncomfortable even taking at as 4th base, it'd be my natural 5th base. good point, i guess that's the downside of having multiple 3rd options on a small map | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3561 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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