Teamliquid Map Contest 8 Results - Page 9

On February 24 2017 13:34 NewSunshine wrote:

I think this is a solid point. Map testing tournaments should, as a standard, prevent players from choosing the maps they do or don't play on(or at least substantially limit this). In Proleague, when it was still a thing, they told you what map you'd be playing on, and it was on you to prepare for it. They got a lot of great map testing done in this way, finding failures and successes alike in all the strange maps they tried over the years. Tournaments for TLMC should follow a like model. But then, they should also get more time for thorough judging, as well, especially if you're going to railroad players to test them. It still confuses me how the timeframe was so tight, if Blizzard knew they'd be doing it a year in advance.

On February 27 2017 10:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I've just finished watching the VODs from the tournaments. Here are my thoughts about all the maps.

Acolyte

I found this map to be very mediocre. In general I'm not fond of maps that allow people to turtle on three bases behind a tiny choke, but this one was executed worse than most. The pocket base is both vulnerable to drops and has a gas that can be shot across the gap by a tank, which makes any match-up involving terran rather miserable since the terran can easily turtle while the other races can't against terran. The game between Snute and uThermal was a pretty good example of the problems with this map I think. As to the middle of the map there are those golds that can't ever be held unless you've already won the game, but the layout is otherwise fine I guess.

This map was a 5.0/10 for me; if the pocket base is moved a bit back to allow different races to turtle equally I'd score it half a point higher.

Ascension to Aiur

This is a large macro map with an interesting choice of thirds and fourths. Yup, that's all I have to say about this one.

7.0/10

Asteroid Barricade

There were fewer games played on this map than any of the other ones, only three (two if you don't count NoRegreT showing us why you shouldn't take double golds on this map), so my impressions about this map remain rather vague. Overall it's pretty standard and I quite like it. The golds seem well placed to be interesting to take yet not too strong, and there is reasoning behind the placement of all the rocks. The expansion layout is good. It's really too bad that we didn't see more games on it.

I'm giving this map a 7.0/10 but it's followed by a question mark. I wouldn't be surprised if the map was better than that. I don't foresee it being very popular in the map contest or with Blizzard though, so I don't think we'll ever know.

Hwangsan

This map stands out to me, because of how much smaller it is than all the other 'macro' maps. Due to the flawed categories of the map contest the standard maps are all submitted to the macro category and as such tend to be on the larger side of standard. This has been a problem in both this map contest and the previous one, and the lack of middle-sized maps has been a persistent problem in LotV map pools, and one of the reasons why map pools with old maps have been met with more success than ones with new ones. But I digress. This map is quite the opposite, and it's quite refreshing to see that.

Despite that the map has a few problems. The third is quite vulnerable with pushes being able to split the natural from the third quite easily. This was problematic on Galactic Process and pushes should be much stronger on Hwangsan. I think the map would benefit a lot if the base directly above/below the natural was a viable choice of a third base. If that isn't possible, maybe the ramp leading in between the natural and third should be moved further towards the natural to weaken those pushes. But I definitely favour the former solution since it also helps expanding on this map which is rather difficult. The watchtowers are also obnoxious in that they cover too much important ground. That kinda worked on Overgrowth, but in general I don't think it's a good thing.

I think this map is a 6.5/10, but I might still vote for it just to get a smaller map on ladder.

Paradisia

The fact that Sidian got Abyssal Reef on ladder works against Paradisia, since if you compare both maps they are quite similar but Abyssal Reef is clearly better (in both layout and looks). The first four bases on Abyssal Reef just look more harmoniously placed than on Paradisia with that awkward low ground base that can't easily be secured unless you break the rocks and secure the forward centre base. However those four bases do work well with Paradisia's middle which I feel is its strongest feature. The bottom of the map is a bit lackluster, but the middle and top are quite intriguing. Despite a few weaknesses, this map succeeds at being both standard and exciting.

7.25/10

Windwaker

Windwaker is quite a nice map though the whole alternate resource thing going on feels off. The extra mineral patch in the main doesn't serve any clear purpose and players are already discouraged from expanding to the bases with the 6 mineral patches, so I don't see any point in discouraging them further. The choice of third bases is nice with interesting trade-offs and the middle though simple serves its purpose. The four quadrants of the map feel slightly disconnected perhaps.

7.0/10

Eremita

I was shocked when Snute ended up playing a macro game on this map. That says more about Snute as a player than about this map though and even Snute couldn't manage it in the other match-ups. The problems of this map are obvious to everyone.

Shorter than steppes of war rush distance + no significant defensive edge in the middle + backdoor to the main + low resource natural add up to a 2.0/10. I don't have any suggestions on how to fix this map. Maybe pray to Dustin Browder and throw down a bunch of rocks in the middle to extend the rush distance by 10 seconds.

Hunger Game

This map has a bunch of problems mostly revolving around taking a third base especially against terran. Drops are insanely abusive, siege tanks behind the likely third are very strong, and pushes can easily split the third from the natural. I think Snute had the right idea when he took the low ground base but even that one is wide open. Taking the fifth is probably an exercise in futility no matter the match-up.

3.5/10

Maxwell Platform

This map seeks to emulate Rush Hour clearly, but SCII is a lot less tolerant of asymmetry than BW. And even BW Rush Hour had some balance issues. The natural in Maxwell Platform is an absolute nightmare to hold no matter the match-up. The ramps are far away from the town hall, and the collapsible rock towers aren't even clearly a defensive tool. Destroying them and sieging the gas geyser and first few minerals from across the gap seems pretty good as terran. If the game unaccountably gets past the two base stage (maybe the players agreed no rush 20) you can get to see how imbalanced the spawns are. The person spawning at 3 o'clock gets to take a bunch of easy bases away from their opponent whereas the other player has to expand in between the two mains. Or if it ends up being 10:30 vs 7:30 you could get a split map situation I guess since the map's middle is tiny.

1.0/10 Probably the worse TLMC finalist ever.

Paradise Lost

This is the map that is the favourite for winning the map contest. The public likes it, the casters like it, most of the mapmaking community likes it. It's nevertheless an awful map.

Why are people voting for it? Because the island and more specifically the destructible air blockers are such a cool gimmick. That's all everyone talks about when it comes to this map. The fact that the destructible air blockers have a completely negligible impact on the map isn't considered. We saw 13 games played on Paradise Lost and the existence of the Sky Gate influenced none of them. It was destroyed once I guess, not that it mattered in the slightest. I'm not going to even bother mentioning the "Narrow Path" gimmick with the completely gratuitous sight blocked mineral patches on the island.

Now let's look at what actually matters on this map, since even the mapmaker eschewed doing that in his map description in favour of raving about the unimpactful arcade features he put in. Air blockers are still not supported by the game engine, and still cause godawful pathing. New Gettysburg was fun despite the presence of air blockers not because of them. The middle of this map is tiny and any game that actually gets past three bases will end up with split map incredibly turtly play probably with a lot of Skytoss. Stats already showed us some against Time, and Lillekanin and Kas gave us some turtly mech. The islands only contribute to that. The main/nat/third layout is rather unimpressive.

This map is a 4.0/10 and I hope Blizzard has the sense of not putting it on ladder even after it wins the map contest. To improve it the middle needs to be opened up by redesigning the area between the gold and the behind the rocks base, and the whole Narrow Path thing needs to be shelved and used on a map that actually needs it.

Geumgangsan

I've already spoken at length on both Reddit and Teamliquid about why this map sucks. About how the forcefields are brutally imbalanced, mess with pathing very badly, should appear through the FOW and on the minimap etc.

2.0/10 At least this map is easy to fix. Just remove the forcefields and replace them with rocks and the map instantly becomes considerably better.

Sequencer

Before the tournament started this was the map that was the biggest question mark to me. The games on this map turned out to be excellent. I'd highly recommend watching them. The 6-mineral 1-gas third was a bit odd, but it turned to make the choice of third bases much more interesting and this map's odd layout ended up giving lots of interesting counterattacks and maneuvering. This map is both novel and plays very well. The rocks fulfill their role of helping out terran and protoss against zerg in the midgame very well. The only thing that worries about this map is that some match-ups particularly PvZ might not be balanced as the game goes late.

Fantastic map. 8.5/10

Keres Passage

This map also impressed me a lot (though its inclusion in the resource category is a bit odd. Sure the rocks are weaker than usual, there's a few golds, and a low resource base, but none of that really impacts the early/mid game. I guess they were really struggling to find maps for it). The lack of a middle makes me worry that the map might be a bit too splitty, but the games didn't reflect that. It made for a map that played out quite differently from normal maps, yet seemed balanced. The tiny passage in the middle might be a bit overkill though. It could be made a bit larger. Overall I really like this map.

8.0/10

Bandarlog Ruins

The ultra-low resource thing might be novel, but I don't see it ever being balanced. Terran can lift-off their main and as such have much more latitude than other races at dealing with this map, and Protoss in particular is pretty screwed. Even if the resource count for the main was increased (which I feel is an absolute necessity) the map's layout itself has a bunch of problems. The amount of airspace this map has is absolutely ridiculous, and the sprawling main make for very abusive drops. Expanding to a fifth which is very important on this map seems brutal in horizontal spawns. The lack of resources early on leads to very volatile gameplay.

4.0/10 Credit for effort. The only map that took the resource concept and ran with it.

Blood Boil

This map like Caldeum before it suffers from having too many ideas crammed into a single map. There's a backdoor that leads to a six mineral base, and multiple openings to a natural which can be sieged from the back, and a base with no back to it, and the whole map is really long. It's all too much, and doesn't make for a coherent map. All of these ideas have problems that can be compensated for, but all together... A lot of the bases feel placed without much thought as to how viable they are and what role they should have on the map.

4.5/10

Overall I'd rank them in the following order though maps 3-7 are all pretty close.

1. Sequencer
2. Keres Passage

3. Paradisia
4. Ascension to Aiur
5. Asteroid Barricade
6. Windwaker
7. Hwangsan

8. Acolyte
9. Blood Boil
10. Bandarlog Ruins
11. Paradise Lost
12. Hunger Game
13. Geumgangsan
14. Eremita
15. Maxwell Platform

On February 27 2017 13:39 Youngrustler wrote:


I have been working on making the natural better and I made sure before submitting that siege tanks could not siege from the outside gap, and they are not able to fire on them. In the updated version of the map I have been working towards making it not possible to siege the geysers either. On the note of natural being a nightmare to hold, I agree I am open to ideas of improving it and would love to hear whatever improves I could make on it.



I was just as surprised that my map made it into the finals, but I can see people are open to bashing mappers who are honestly trying to improve. Yes, I am new on the map making scene and its sad to see someone bashing just because some judges liked my map.

If you want to help me improve it shot me ideas and I will try it out I am open to make changes that could help improve the map, and from the games I saw the major hurtle is making the natural more secure so it will go past the first two bases. The game between Snute and Optimus was going good in my opinion, and as noted it was the top and bottom spawns. The middle spawn didn't get shown since most games ended with the natural not even being secure. If anyone has suggestions on how to improve the map than PM me or reply to this.

On February 27 2017 14:43 Youngrustler wrote:


Thanks I have just been observing what people have been saying and today I had enough of the comments. I am looking to improve and seeing comments like "worst finalist ever" really is demotivating to read.

On February 27 2017 13:59 Youngrustler wrote:


That is fine you are entitled to your opinion, but keep in mind bashing the map is bashing the work they put into it. I like brood war map so I tried to see if it could work in sc2 why not? It is not a new concept that people try to recreate a map they found to be cool, last season we had a "remake" of Cloud Kingdom a WOL map and everyone seemed ok with it, but thats probably because its a sc2 map and its standard. Like I stated before I was just as surprised as many people when they told me the map was a finalist because I knew it would be a bit of a stretch for sc2 since it's not "standard" at all. Anyways I am trying to improve the map I would love to hear any sort of changes you think could help improve the map, and if it is beyond repair than I guess I need to know.