After an intense, action-packed couple of opening days, we're finally reaching the business end of the competition. Day 3 featured just a single Best of 5—the first semifinal between Dark and INnoVation.
After besting the best terran of 2016 in ByuN in yesterday's tight 3-2 quarterfinal win, Dark was confronted by the terran of the moment in INnoVation for today's semifinal. While bio-mine was the story in the Ro.8, today's clash was all about INnoVation's mech power.
Game 1 lay down a template for the whole series—a cyclone-hellion opener for INnoVation that transitioned straight into full-blown mech. Dark's response was immediate—a roach counter that significantly delayed the terran from powering up, before adding vipers. Abducts and blinding cloud tore apart the terran forces as Dark drew first blood. It wasn't long before INnoVation evened things up though; hitting an earlier pre-viper timing on Vaani and rolling through off his unstoppable macro prowess, and game 3 on Daybreak was just the same.
Finally, down on match point, Dark showed signs of adapting to his opponent. Early infestors on Habitation Station proved to be the change he needed, with some burrowed fungals catching out INnoVation's whole initial cyclone force. The terran never quite recovered, with Dark harassing all over the map with pockets of burrowed roaches before one crucial blinding cloud on all of INnoVation's clumped tanks allowed the mass roach pack to close the distance and send us to a final deciding set on Whirlwind.
All the prophesies of a lengthy macro decider proved to be false, however , as INnoVation's early cyclone-hellbat push functioned as planned for the first time in the series. With Dark committing a pack of lings to an overlord drop that never reached its destination, INnoVation's army proved too much for a minimal defence with ling-bane and queens. INnoVation advances to the IEM Gyeonggi Finals to face one of ByuL or Stats on Sunday afternoon.
Semifinal #2 between Stats and ByuL will be played tomorrow in
Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
in the games he won he dealt with them pretty well
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
The nail biting series of today where where the winner was decided in the last game?
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
Innovation is an amazing player. But i remember reading an article here on TL claiming that he can only be truly succesful when meta favors him (Terran) and that he then goes on to destroy everything. Not 100% sure if thats right but cyclones look so retarded in the current game iteration. I havent been following SC2 too closely since LOTV but to me the new cyclone looks like a fking Warhound. I really cant say im happy about the games design lately. Also Blinding Cloud still seems to be quite a retarded ability design wise.
It's even stated in the article that cyclone hellion has worked only in the last game... And people still whine? How come those "unbeatable reaper openings" of Byun now? They were also unbeatable in people's minds, and are they winning 100% of games now?
This is absolutely the best iteration of Starcraft 2 I've ever played. Whole Lotv before 3.8 was utter garbage compared to this. Let players figure things out (I think hydra nerf was too fast as well).
On December 16 2016 22:46 Penev wrote: shit, I was waiting for the vods to be released on sc2links but got spoilered anyway :/
You could have watched it on Twitch on the ESL channel. Things broadcasted on Twitch usually appear as VODs immediately afterwards
It's even stated in the article that cyclone hellion has worked only in the last game... And people still whine?
I dislike the design very much and i think they seem to be too strong after watching 3 of the 5 games. How is what a TL article claims any counter argument to that
It's even stated in the article that cyclone hellion has worked only in the last game... And people still whine?
I dislike the design very much and i think they seem to be too strong after watching 3 of the 5 games. How is what a TL article claims any counter argument to that
Oh ofc. thanks
I'm watching the games right now, pretty good so far
As someone who's been watching sc2 for 5 years its been so nice being able to watch Korean starcraft live finally. I think in the last 5 years I've been able to be awake for like, one GSL final because they start at 2am here and go till like 4am. I know it sucks for Europe having to watch at like 6am or something on the new time slot, but even if its only for like one year or something its nice to finally be able to watch this stuff live.
i remember reading an article here on TL claiming that he can only be truly succesful when meta favors him (Terran) and that he then goes on to destroy everything
i remember reading an article here on TL claiming that he can only be truly succesful when meta favors him (Terran) and that he then goes on to destroy everything
dont listen to TL articles.
Ure pretty good at quoting eh?
But i remember reading an article here on TL claiming that he can only be truly succesful when meta favors him (Terran) and that he then goes on to destroy everything. Not 100% sure if thats right but cyclones look so retarded in the current game iteration.
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
Innovation is an amazing player. But i remember reading an article here on TL claiming that he can only be truly succesful when meta favors him (Terran) and that he then goes on to destroy everything. Not 100% sure if thats right but cyclones look so retarded in the current game iteration. I havent been following SC2 too closely since LOTV but to me the new cyclone looks like a fking Warhound. I really cant say im happy about the games design lately. Also Blinding Cloud still seems to be quite a retarded ability design wise.
I can't believe people would say that this a meta that favors terran when Dark beat Byun just the day before.
Dark outplayed Byun with a new strategy of his own (burrowed infestors) and then Inno outplayed Dark with a new strategy of its own.
If anything this meta shows that both races have good chances and that theres room for new innovative builds.
Too bad Dark didn't squeeze in a Muta switch anywhere, Inno's composition was quite vulnerable to it to put it mildly. Might have put Inno of a bit for the series
as INnoVation's early cyclone-hellbat push functioned as planned for the first time in the series. With Dark committing a pack of lings to an overlord drop that never reached its destination
hm this doesnt seem accurate. first of all, the drop reached its destination (a baneling drop btw), but the eco dmg it did didnt matter because he was overwhelmed at home. secondly the cyclone hellbat push functioned as planned in every game inno won. as he showed its not an allin by any means, but its supposed to make your opponent invest into defenses heavily and allow yourself to expand your economy. the vaani game is a perfect example for this. after the initial push innovation was in a position that allowed him to trade effectively and deny dark's 4th. in the games he lost, dark defended too efficiently for innovation to continue the pressure and dark could get the army size, eco and tech he needed to beat him.
On December 16 2016 19:30 Argonauta wrote: I just dont understand why no spire, why dark? why????
On December 17 2016 02:11 Penev wrote: Too bad Dark didn't squeeze in a Muta switch anywhere, Inno's composition was quite vulnerable to it to put it mildly. Might have put Inno of a bit for the series
mutas werent an option at all. innovation was constantly in dark's face and forced him to invest his ressources into units. if dark had committed to a muta switch, he wouldve been overwhelmed before getting there and if he had done it more slowly, innovation wouldve had enough time to build thors, a starport or w/e he wanted to counter them. he also frequently scanned dark's main, always aware of the potential threat
On December 17 2016 02:11 Penev wrote: Too bad Dark didn't squeeze in a Muta switch anywhere, Inno's composition was quite vulnerable to it to put it mildly. Might have put Inno of a bit for the series
Wonder if that's possible though. Innovation put on great pressure throughout the game and had Dark committed gas too quickly, Innovation would have rolled him over with the Cyclone/Hellbat pressure. Squeezing mutas will delay vipers as well, and knowing how smart Innovation is, I am sure he had a solution for mutas with that build. I think Innovation showcased some great mech games today and it seems like mech is going in the right direction. I still think once Vipers come out this build has a hard time dealing with the vipers, but the mid game stage looks great!
Dark would have held that last game if it weren't for the supply block. He was 64/60 or something with 700 in the bank. If 20 lings (500 mins) had showed up right when the cyclones made it up the natural ramp or around then, he holds that initial push, and I think reinforcements wouldn't have swung the tide since the numbers would have been too small by then to beat back queen ling.
Dark's defenses are always like this, by the skin of his teeth while getting enough tech to throw in counterattacks. He just slipped up at an unforgiving moment. I don't think inno's cyclone opener is unbeatable or OP by any means, and it's cool to see something new. Dark has shown that a baneling drop opener *should probably* have been able to deal with the pressure, and he's definitely shown that roach openers can deal with it. I think the old cyclones were cooler/better/more interesting, but the new ones definitely aren't broken by any means. Was cool to see inno stutter stepping the cyclones so smoothly that it almost looked like a moving shot.
Also though, throw in the fact that just yesterday he was dealing with an entirely different set of pressure builds equally effectively, and you can't deny Dark's adaptability and his inevitable bouncing back from this setback.
Can't help but feel for him though, it seems that the zerg meta he's developed is very reactive, so meeting different players forces him to play vastly differently. Must be hard for him
TvZ is in a good state at the moment, Dark beating the best Terran in the world 3-2, Innovation coming back to his best form beating Dark 3-2 and either series could have gone the other way. Bio and mech viable, means that Terran is not so predictable.
I still think that they need to fix the Viper though, as once it is out the game is over when playing mech. And for ladder they need to do something with Raven.
Cyclone : - deals +armored while tanks already do damage against armored So reactor and the tech lab seems overlaping - No early units to counter them, zerglings are counter by Hellions, Roach by Cyclones - Huge flow, 6 army supply by factory
Comparing to bio, the player should have 5 barracks to get the same amount of units so mech timings are stronger than bio. I m now asking you if the bio ball has an advantage on mech ? And if we are only watching a mech transition in patch 3.8. Bio ball has some power but in these 5 games from innovation we see Dark struggling. The bonus against armored deals by tanks was supposed to hold ultralisk but now we have two units who are good against armored.. Maybe a legit answer is to remove this bonus damage against armored and give to the cyclone a spell to force micro management (which is lacking in terran army)
I really dislike Cyclones as a player (of all races) and as a spectator. If Terran is deemed not being able to pressure Zerg enough early on, why not revert the queen anti-air range change instead of trying to make Cyclones a thing? ... sigh
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
I agree it's annoying. Innovation outplayed Dark fair and square. People were crying about zerg when Dark beat Byun in a close 3-2 series as well. Those people just need to stfu and realize balance was not why those players lost.
On December 16 2016 17:06 Maxim wrote: Well, I also think that there is no strong counter for the Cyclone right now. I watched the games and I think the amount of Cyclones terran can get out of 2 factories can hardly be matched by a Zerg without falling behind in economy (although I haven't considered spines and I'm not sure how Cyclones do vs spines). I really felt for Dark when I saw his different approaches on how to deal with them failed
This post makes me sad, because once again some people fail to see how good INnoVation is, and why he's at the top for almost 4 years, his macro and build refining is on par to none, he always led the TvZ meta and he IS a superior player.
So he wins 3-2 against Dark, and then it's the balance fault? gimme a break!
The funniest part is if Dark had won, some other fucktards will be ranting about new banelings or hydras or burrowed infestors being unbeatable
Stop being an idiot and see the skill of the player instead of looking desperatly for a balance issue to blame.
I agree it's annoying. Innovation outplayed Dark fair and square. People were crying about zerg when Dark beat Byun in a close 3-2 series as well. Those people just need to stfu and realize balance was not why those players lost.
I honestly think Dark is better than Innovation, but he was just unprepared to deal with mech. It seems like he hadn't really played against it, or at least not against someone as good as Innovation using it. If you look at the games everything screams "I have no idea how to properly deal with this so I'm gonna try everything".
He was caught off-guard, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen again.
On December 17 2016 02:11 Penev wrote: Too bad Dark didn't squeeze in a Muta switch anywhere, Inno's composition was quite vulnerable to it to put it mildly. Might have put Inno of a bit for the series
Wonder if that's possible though. Innovation put on great pressure throughout the game and had Dark committed gas too quickly, Innovation would have rolled him over with the Cyclone/Hellbat pressure. Squeezing mutas will delay vipers as well, and knowing how smart Innovation is, I am sure he had a solution for mutas with that build. I think Innovation showcased some great mech games today and it seems like mech is going in the right direction. I still think once Vipers come out this build has a hard time dealing with the vipers, but the mid game stage looks great!
I honestly think mech is fine even late game. Vipers were a thing in HoTS and mech still looked broken af. The dynamic hasn't changed all too much except for parasitic bomb which helps make air transitions harder (and if you look at the end of HoTS those thing were imba w/o PB).
Yeah there's the base-spread of lotv, but it seems Innovation's openner can put on enough pressure to be able to defend decently on 4-5 bases.
The cyclone seems like a step back to the deathball-mechanic again and I don't like that. LotV was on a good way to a more zone controlled game, like brood war, so far.
as INnoVation's early cyclone-hellbat push functioned as planned for the first time in the series. With Dark committing a pack of lings to an overlord drop that never reached its destination
hm this doesnt seem accurate. first of all, the drop reached its destination (a baneling drop btw), but the eco dmg it did didnt matter because he was overwhelmed at home. secondly the cyclone hellbat push functioned as planned in every game inno won. as he showed its not an allin by any means, but its supposed to make your opponent invest into defenses heavily and allow yourself to expand your economy. the vaani game is a perfect example for this. after the initial push innovation was in a position that allowed him to trade effectively and deny dark's 4th. in the games he lost, dark defended too efficiently for innovation to continue the pressure and dark could get the army size, eco and tech he needed to beat him.
On December 17 2016 02:11 Penev wrote: Too bad Dark didn't squeeze in a Muta switch anywhere, Inno's composition was quite vulnerable to it to put it mildly. Might have put Inno of a bit for the series
mutas werent an option at all. innovation was constantly in dark's face and forced him to invest his ressources into units. if dark had committed to a muta switch, he wouldve been overwhelmed before getting there and if he had done it more slowly, innovation wouldve had enough time to build thors, a starport or w/e he wanted to counter them. he also frequently scanned dark's main, always aware of the potential threat
Hmm, there were several moments during the series Dark had a bank and could have gone fore it actually. What I mean if Dark had gone for it during any of the games (even one he won) that could have messed with Innovations confidence maybe. It's captain hindsight wisdom obviously.
EPT
Dark and 
INnoVation.
