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On December 06 2016 07:00 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 05:49 JackONeill wrote:
Yes for tempest (finally a unit that TRADES instead of either killing for free, either being useless) 10 range with stronger anti-ground damage makes it a unit that trades? Are brood lords units that trade? Or are they units that either do a ton of damage uncontested or get stomped by lower tech units because they lacked support? No mention of infinite range seeker missiles and ridiculous auto-turrets yet, interesting.
Seeker missile should be designed so you always hit something, this "running away" interaction as counterplay is dumb to begin with. Auto turrets are simply boring and should be removed for something else
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I don't mind these changes, but blizzard needs to keep in mind hydras are even with carriers now. Any nerf, if not compensated, will just ruin ZvP.
Also, remove swarm hosts and reaper grenades from the game.
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A hydra (and possible viper) nerf combined with a tempest buff.... I can't imagine that will make later game skytoss any less impossible to deal with
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On December 06 2016 07:24 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
A hydra (and possible viper) nerf combined with a tempest buff.... I can't imagine that will make later game skytoss any less impossible to deal with
The viper nerf is in blinding cloud duration. How is that relevant in fighting skytoss?
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Make vipers a ground unit, that alone adds a myriad of counter play options instead of nerfing their abilities.
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Not understanding the immortal change, the immortal barrier activated automatically anyways, so why remove the option to do it manually?
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Hi guys,
I thhink the hydra nerf is Ok because a lot off whining about hydra 2 strong.
But there is a big problem right now wiith the carrier. You can see iit inn games off neeb and a lot on
the ladder ( highh master). traiding against carriers is imposibel. Blizz pls give zerg an option 2 deal with them or increase the cost off innterceptor again or maybe up the build tiime off interceptor.
If Protos has like 4-6 Carriers and healthi 3 base eco the game iis over and hittiing a timing befor is nearly imposible( toss deff 2 strong).
So pls if you nerf hydra takke a closer look at carier ;
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On December 06 2016 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:00 Elentos wrote:On December 06 2016 05:49 JackONeill wrote:
Yes for tempest (finally a unit that TRADES instead of either killing for free, either being useless) 10 range with stronger anti-ground damage makes it a unit that trades? Are brood lords units that trade? Or are they units that either do a ton of damage uncontested or get stomped by lower tech units because they lacked support? No mention of infinite range seeker missiles and ridiculous auto-turrets yet, interesting. Seeker missile should be designed so you always hit something, this "running away" interaction as counterplay is dumb to begin with. Auto turrets are simply boring and should be removed for something else
Auto turrets are mostly OK-ish, you can actually do interesting stuff like harassing or defending with a few well placed ATs and good raven control, I wouldn't be against nerfing them tho (like increasing energy cost from 50 to 75).
Now PDD that is one spell thats boring and makes no sense, PDD should be removed for sure.
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From a Zerg's standpoint, why does blinding cloud have to be such a all or nothing ability? What if it was reworked to maintain it as it is but instead of units have 0 range within, just reduce range by 50-60%. Personally I just don't like the whole concept of abilities being all or nothing.
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If they absolutely have to nerf hydra range i think it'd be better to reduce costs instead of increasing health.
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On December 06 2016 07:27 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:24 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
A hydra (and possible viper) nerf combined with a tempest buff.... I can't imagine that will make later game skytoss any less impossible to deal with The viper nerf is in blinding cloud duration. How is that relevant in fighting skytoss?
Because parasitic bomb does nothing vs a Protoss that can split unless you get like 20 vipers. Parasitic Bomb deals 60 damage, but a Carrier has 400 health, which means it takes 7 Parasitic Bombs to kill one Carrier. So unless the Toss player is an idiot and clumps their army up and gets it all fungalled, Parasitic Bomb is useless vs Skytoss. This doesn't even account for the fact that Toss will likely have HT with their army for storm and feedback. So Zerg basically either has to make Corruptors and pray that Toss doesn't make Void Rays, make Hydras and pray Toss doesn't have enough Carriers, or all-in, none of which are fun. Blizzard once again proving they have no idea how to balance this game, or make it fun.
On December 06 2016 07:56 Sacrilege wrote:
From a Zerg's standpoint, why does blinding cloud have to be such a all or nothing ability? What if it was reworked to maintain it as it is but instead of units have 0 range within, just reduce range by 50-60%. Personally I just don't like the whole concept of abilities being all or nothing.
Well all-or-nothing is unfortunately what Blizzard considers to be good design. It's the philosophy behind the game's hard counter system and the builds players are forced into. Either a unit is going to be countered by another unit, or it will hard counter it. There is little middle ground.
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On December 06 2016 07:48 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 06 2016 07:00 Elentos wrote:On December 06 2016 05:49 JackONeill wrote:
Yes for tempest (finally a unit that TRADES instead of either killing for free, either being useless) 10 range with stronger anti-ground damage makes it a unit that trades? Are brood lords units that trade? Or are they units that either do a ton of damage uncontested or get stomped by lower tech units because they lacked support? No mention of infinite range seeker missiles and ridiculous auto-turrets yet, interesting. Seeker missile should be designed so you always hit something, this "running away" interaction as counterplay is dumb to begin with. Auto turrets are simply boring and should be removed for something else Auto turrets are mostly OK-ish, you can actually do interesting stuff like harassing or defending with a few well placed ATs and good raven control, I wouldn't be against nerfing them tho (like increasing energy cost from 50 to 75). Now PDD that is one spell thats boring and makes no sense, PDD should be removed for sure.
PDD isn't that exciting either, sure. At least it has a clear purpose while auto turrets seem to be on the raven because they couldn't come up with something else?
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people are happy with the changes it looks like
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If they're really going to nerf the range upgrade after just putting it in the game...then...
+ Show Spoiler +
I really, really hate that they made a change like this only to revert it immediately because of bitching. I understand that Protoss are struggling with the new hydralisk, and I know that telling them to just "deal with it" is definitely not a solid compromise for all races.
I hate this rhetoric because it means that the changes were not thought through to begin with. This is the first change to the hydralisk in 6 YEARS that actually make it a solid choice in any matchup outside of ZvP. And even then the hydralisk has had a history of getting phased out of matchups completely as more viable compositions are discovered. It's a crap unit.
I am having a ton of fun actually playing with hydra ling lurk compositions, and now all of that is going to be taken away?! Why not put more effort into making a stable, more lasting change?
If you're going to take away the range upgrade after just putting it into the game, then do the thing you should have done YEARS ago and give the hydralisk 15+ more HP. Let it survive one liberator shot, PERIOD. Make the hydralisk viable in ZvT as a general purpose DPS unit. Please just do it.
I would like it if they just give hydras enough HP so that they do not get 1 shot by liberators (preferably until +2 air weapons or something like that). I think that per cost it is ridiculous that liberators can one shot hydralisks (even more so when they get the range upgrade). Having to build a specialist spellcaster like the viper or dedicate supply to air units just to take out 1-2 liberators is pretty crazy and it would go a long way to allowing hydra ling lurk to be viable in all 3 MUs.
>> There has to be a give and a get.
You can't revert the range upgrade and go from there. If you revert the range upgrade then the hydras are going to go back to being a completely unused unit. We're just going to see ravager ling all day in ZvP again. Without the extra range on the hydra ravager ling becomes superior to hydra ling in every way.
So if you remove the extra range, you need to give the hydralisk an HP buff. How much? Then it becomes matchup specific.
In ZvP, I think just a little bit more to cushion against all the new sources of damage that Protoss have against light units (especially adepts, actually come to think about it everything that Protoss has decimate hydralisks). So the HP buff has to be pretty substantial (at least + 10) or else you make no difference. And again if there's no substantial difference then we're just going to see ravager ling every game. It becomes superior to hydra ling in every way.
In ZvT, I think the number is just enough to survive 2 shots from a liberator until, say, +2 weapons. If you don't do this then you severely limit the viability of hydralisks in ZvT, essentially tying them to viper usage in the mid/late game. Which I think is silly. We already see too much viper usage. If I want to Sauron-Zerg it I am punished a ludicrous amount for not having vipers against any more than 3-4 liberators.
As it is right now, even with 7 range hydralisks are still not viable in ZvT once more than 3-4 liberators hit the field without viper support. This is pretty crippling.
And finally, if you're going to remove the range upgrade, then merge the two upgrades into 1 again. The extra HP should not be an upgrade. It should be built into the unit.
As it is right now it takes a crazy amount of time for both upgrades to kick in (even longer if you go lurker den first) and everyone just goes range anyway. So take away the extra range, merge the upgrades into one, and give a substantial bonus to starting HP so that we don't have the same, completely unviable hydras we've had for the past 6 years.
Another idea would be to make the liberator do a lower base damage, then extra bonus damage against armored, along with removing the light armor tag from the hydra (or giving it extra HP).
Just something...anything...
Or honestly? Just buff the collossus. I think the other races can deal with it. That way we don't have to play with an iteration of a unit that's going to quickly slip out of our grasp in a few months...
Oh. And take a good hard look at carriers. Because in the months leading up to yet another change (sigh) all you're going to see in PvZ are carriers. Good skill toi have...
>> Ok, how about this. Increase hydra hp by 10-15. Reduce liberator damage by 5-10. Fiddle with the numbers. Merge the upgrades. We've solved the problem.
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Why oh why would you not change the colossus to an anti-light unit? You can always compensate by slightly reducing base damage, and maybe even a small range nerf, but the problem with the colossus was that it was too good all-round. Giving it substantial +light damage fixes this problem, and gives protoss an effective counter to the mass ling/bane styles (the fact that you need T3 units to reliably beat a T1 comp is annoying enough, but I digress) other than hoping that the main engagement occurs when the toss has a lot more zealots/adepts than the zerg has banelings.
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Hydraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas!!!!! so many Hydraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas!
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The Hydra change is probably a good call. I'd love to see them cheaper (and perhaps sliiightly tone down their dps) rather than having the range of a defensive structure.
I hate the Tempest and Blinding Cloud changes.
The Tempest needs to avoid being designed to be good at picking off both air and ground units at great range, so that it isn't so disgusting and unfun in the late-late game. Just ground units? Sure. Just air units? That's fine. But it needs to not be able to pick off all units in the game at leisure
To suggest something a little crazy, replace Tempests' AtG attack entirely with a special effect. Let's have it apply an effect that prevents that specific unit from attacking for 5.72 seconds (exactly double its cooldown), so that singular siege units can be neutralized, yet clumps of anti-air can get through just fine. You could couple this with a cost decrease and production time shortening, in order to make them more accessible to produce in order to push away Liberators, and just generally to make them more available as siege-breaking units. Presumably, units with frenzy would be immune to this spell, but that's not really the main point of this post.
Blinding cloud's main issues are not fixed by decreasing the duration. Lowering the severity of the range debuff or lowering the damage dealt would be much wiser ideas. Some people have posted that it would make a lot of sense to halve the range. While I like lowering the damage more, any of these alternative solutions seem preferable to a flat duration nerf.
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So is it just me who taps out after failed to break protoss in his little turtle shell before carriers? Zergs anti air is worse than it was in HotS now -_-
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On December 06 2016 09:15 feanaro wrote:
Why oh why would you not change the colossus to an anti-light unit? You can always compensate by slightly reducing base damage, and maybe even a small range nerf, but the problem with the colossus was that it was too good all-round. Giving it substantial +light damage fixes this problem, and gives protoss an effective counter to the mass ling/bane styles (the fact that you need T3 units to reliably beat a T1 comp is annoying enough, but I digress) other than hoping that the main engagement occurs when the toss has a lot more zealots/adepts than the zerg has banelings.
Because this unit was one of the originator of turtlish deathball gameplay which noone likes to watch, play against or even play?
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I have seen a few interesting games with fast BC into mech in TvZ
Would be interesting to see if hydra nerf makes this build more popular
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EPT
