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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 22 2016 21:17 Ganseng wrote:
and by the way people saying blizzard can't do math and should set the tank hp @ 180 in order to let them survive 3 corrosive biles are probably at odds with math themselves because corrosive bile is most likely a spell and ignores armor =p
3x60 = 180 = dead tank anyways
Zergs need some countering versus siege tanks. 3 corrosive biles is okay as zerg counter to siege tanks. They were buffed, but not overbuffed.
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On November 22 2016 17:48 avilo wrote:
Going to comment, i'd like people that read/respond to keep in mind i'd already played and seen 50+ games of the "test mod" which is basically the same as the live patch is now:
Mech is the same if not worse on this patch. Infestor burrow, but mainly invincible nydus and swarmhost in particular are broken as hell. Needs to be hotfixed. I mentioned that swarmhosts needed to be hotfixed months ago when the test mod came out and for some reason other people did and it was ignored. The patch is going to kill the game if swarmhosts are not fixed within the next few days.
Next is, this patch did absolutely nothing to address mech anti-air issues vs all capital ships/broods. Protoss can make pure carrier, and then add in high templar / archon underneath and your anti-air is actually even WORSE because cyclones are suck against air. Not like they worked before, but now they're 10x worse.
As for Protoss...Protoss is basically in the same boat as mech Terran. I think most Protoss players will quit the game after they realize every game is about to turn into infestor/swarmhost type of non-sense, as well as baneling buff ruining both ZvT and PvZ. Banelings were already strong vs both races, now it's a problem.
This patch really did not address issues or increase mech viability because blizzard does the same mistake they do every time when it comes to mech viability. Buff 1 thing of mech while buffing 20 of the anti-mech things (such as hydralisks, the buff was unnecessary). It's terrible.
I honestly think they missed a lot of huge issues too like:
-adept is not balanced properly still
-invincible nydus worm still in the game (shouldn't be)
-mass reaper is still in the game (shouldn't be)
-swarmhost on test map needed a hotfix, still does
Disappointing patch. Disappointing wait for the patch. Disappointing they listened to absolutely no feedback about mech anti-air, and just overall disappointed that they have no clue what they are doing.
You will never be satisfied no matter what they do. You cried for years that they should buff Tank damage (or make big changes in general) , now they do it and you still whine. Just quit the game already if you are that disappointed by it.
Btw, if you let Protoss get pure Carrier it´s YOUR fault. Not the other player´s or blizzard´s. Of course "don´t let them get there" should never be a valid statement, in this case it´s true. And since when are Hydras Anti-Mech wtf. They even buffed the HP of Tanks. And there was more than just one Unit buffed. Stop spreading misinformation.
While I don´t play the game itself (just because I can´t) , Mech has gotten a lot better/stronger on the ground. If there are any other problems they sure will look at it and adress it. One step at a time. Not to mention that the Test was on completely different maps. We will see a whole new Meta game with these changes coupled with the "new" maps. These changes and the redesign (hell even buffing Siege Tank damage alone) is a huge step for blizzard. Nobody (or only a small amount of people) thought they will ever do this.
I could go on but in your case its useless. Since I know you from streaming during the Swarm era i know you are not gonna learn. You refuse to watch replays and switch on Health bars, then ragequit your whole stream because your bunker dies to DT´s that you could have repaired if you know how much HP it had. You have openly accused several Pro´s (Koreans and foreigners) of cheating/maphacking and even insulted them (you called Violet autistic WTF dude). Still wonders me why TL has you featured. Just viewer count should not qualify someone for being featured if he is that toxic.You don´t deserve that attention at all.
Sorry for that little bit of rant but I needed to get this off my chest.
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After having another go at the test mod I am confident that the ZvP meta is going to get rocked and we're going to see a lot more emphasis on AoE.
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Mechers will always be mechers, complaining about how they can't win by massing defense.
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Tresher you are so clueless it hurts.
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On November 22 2016 22:45 VonComet wrote:
Tresher you are so clueless it hurts.
The best part is where he admits not playing the game (and therefore not having played the test map), yet, somehow, stating that hydras are not good vs mech. It seems the "mech is too strong" bandwagon is at full force. Then, when korean Terrans don't even bother playing mech (outside TvT), what will people say?
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tbh the players I've seen use it like they are using bio. so I don't have a lot of sympathy for people engaging in bad positions because they inherently expect to be able to just pick up and leave without losing the game.
I specifically mean slow mech. Hellion cyclone is still your hyper aggressive funtime.
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To be fair it's a bit unreasonable to expect mech to be viable if you let your protoss opponent to get
carriers
high templars
archons
I mean, he is not playing alone, it's obvious that if you let him get the perfect anti-mech composition, you should loose.. can't you do something before the 30min mark?
It looks you expect to have an unbeatable composition, as mech, with which you can just move out against any P composition..
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On November 22 2016 23:11 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 22:45 VonComet wrote:
Tresher you are so clueless it hurts. The best part is where he admits not playing the game (and therefore not having played the test map), yet, somehow, stating that hydras are not good vs mech. It seems the "mech is too strong" bandwagon is at full force. Then, when korean Terrans don't even bother playing mech (outside TvT), what will people say?
I knew someone was gonna jump on that -_- . I never said Hydras are not good, I said Hydras are not specifically Anti-Mech. Please read.
Also you don´t need to play the game yourself necesarily. There are enough streamers/players that know what they are talking about (Hint: avilo does not count). Also I don´t know what the "Mech is too strong" comment is about. I never said that too. It has just become stronger. Like I said: The changes and the new Maps will evolve a whole new Meta. Not only for Mech/Terran but for all races. It´s too early to judge. If the changes would be useless they wouldn´t have implemented them and would have changed more. And to just say someone is clueless without ANY explanation just makes you look like the typical avilo supporter that takes everything he says to heart.
On November 22 2016 23:45 VHbb wrote:
To be fair it's a bit unreasonable to expect mech to be viable if you let your protoss opponent to get
carriers
high templars
archons
I mean, he is not playing alone, it's obvious that if you let him get the perfect anti-mech composition, you should loose.. can't you do something before the 30min mark?
It looks you expect to have an unbeatable composition, as mech, with which you can just move out against any P composition..
Thank you.
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On November 22 2016 23:49 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 23:11 petro1987 wrote:On November 22 2016 22:45 VonComet wrote:
Tresher you are so clueless it hurts. The best part is where he admits not playing the game (and therefore not having played the test map), yet, somehow, stating that hydras are not good vs mech. It seems the "mech is too strong" bandwagon is at full force. Then, when korean Terrans don't even bother playing mech (outside TvT), what will people say? I knew someone was gonna jump on that -_- . I never said Hydras are not good, I said Hydras are not specifically Anti-Mech. Please read. Also you don´t need to play the game yourself necesarily. There are enough streamers/players that know what they are talking about (Hint: avilo does not count). Also I don´t know what the "Mech is too strong" comment is about. I never said that too. It has just become stronger. Like I said: The changes and the new Maps will evolve a whole new Meta. Not only for Mech/Terran but for all races. It´s too early to judge. If the changes would be useless they wouldn´t have implemented them and would have changed more. And to just say someone is clueless without ANY explanation just makes you look like the typical avilo supporter that takes everything he says to heart. Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 23:45 VHbb wrote:
To be fair it's a bit unreasonable to expect mech to be viable if you let your protoss opponent to get
carriers
high templars
archons
I mean, he is not playing alone, it's obvious that if you let him get the perfect anti-mech composition, you should loose.. can't you do something before the 30min mark?
It looks you expect to have an unbeatable composition, as mech, with which you can just move out against any P composition.. Thank you.
Buffed hydras are very good vs mech. I don't know what exactly what you mean by "anti-mech"... Does it need to do plus dmg vs mechanical to be considered "anti-mech"? I saw plenty of games of Vibe and other streamers doing very well vs mech with hydras/vipers.
Btw, I'm not even defending Avilo, I'm just stating that saying hydras aren't very good vs mech is wrong.
About the carriers. I don't think anyone will be able to just go carriers from the start as they would probably be very vulnerable to a myriad of timings. But it's definitely possible to transition to air Toss vs mech and reach an "unbeatable" composition. The irony here is that you think it's ok that Toss can reach a composition that just stomp mech, but the other way around would be a blasphemy. I don't want a mech composition that can just stomp anything, but being able to trade efficiently sure would be good, if mech is to be viable ofc.
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I'm not saying that "'it's ok that Toss can reach a composition that just stomp mech"
I'm saying that the fact that this composition exists, is not a reason for mech not to be viable: you can play mech and punish the toss before it reaches it, so I don't think carriers are a good reason not to play mech
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On November 23 2016 00:11 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 23:49 Tresher wrote:On November 22 2016 23:11 petro1987 wrote:On November 22 2016 22:45 VonComet wrote:
Tresher you are so clueless it hurts. The best part is where he admits not playing the game (and therefore not having played the test map), yet, somehow, stating that hydras are not good vs mech. It seems the "mech is too strong" bandwagon is at full force. Then, when korean Terrans don't even bother playing mech (outside TvT), what will people say? I knew someone was gonna jump on that -_- . I never said Hydras are not good, I said Hydras are not specifically Anti-Mech. Please read. Also you don´t need to play the game yourself necesarily. There are enough streamers/players that know what they are talking about (Hint: avilo does not count). Also I don´t know what the "Mech is too strong" comment is about. I never said that too. It has just become stronger. Like I said: The changes and the new Maps will evolve a whole new Meta. Not only for Mech/Terran but for all races. It´s too early to judge. If the changes would be useless they wouldn´t have implemented them and would have changed more. And to just say someone is clueless without ANY explanation just makes you look like the typical avilo supporter that takes everything he says to heart. On November 22 2016 23:45 VHbb wrote:
To be fair it's a bit unreasonable to expect mech to be viable if you let your protoss opponent to get
carriers
high templars
archons
I mean, he is not playing alone, it's obvious that if you let him get the perfect anti-mech composition, you should loose.. can't you do something before the 30min mark?
It looks you expect to have an unbeatable composition, as mech, with which you can just move out against any P composition.. Thank you. Buffed hydras are very good vs mech. I don't know what exactly what you mean by "anti-mech"... Does it need to do plus dmg vs mechanical to be considered "anti-mech"? I saw plenty of games of Vibe and other streamers doing very well vs mech with hydras/vipers. Btw, I'm not even defending Avilo, I'm just stating that saying hydras aren't very good vs mech is wrong. About the carriers. I don't think anyone will be able to just go carriers from the start as they would probably be very vulnerable to a myriad of timings. But it's definitely possible to transition to air Toss vs mech and reach an "unbeatable" composition. The irony here is that you think it's ok that Toss can reach a composition that just stomp mech, but the other way around would be a blasphemy. I don't want a mech composition that can just stomp anything, but being able to trade efficiently sure would be good, if mech is to be viable ofc.
Oh huge misunderstanding here. It was avilo that stated Protoss can just go mass carriers (as if he wouldn´t have a way to stop it) and Hydras are Anti Mech, not me. Im sure Hydras are good but they are NOT an Anti Mech Unit like avilo said. He said that like 20 Mech counters were buffed while only 1 Mech Unit was buffed which is just not true. Sure a few counters were buffed like Zealots, but if your Tanks die to Zealots you are doing it wrong or put Hellions in Battleform in front of them for example. Im sure Mech is a lot more viable than before (at least it should be stronger on ground). And the new Tanks should be good vs Hydras too, without Armor upgrades they get 2-shotted.
I just wouldn´t write off Mech completely, especially since the new Maps are quite good Mech maps and the changes are fresh. I wound´t even have said anything if the Mech rant would have come from a different person. But since it´s coming from a person that is constantly whining, even if the person´s wishes (more tank damage) are fulfilled I was getting a bit angry.
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If mech is supposed to be viable then Swarm host cannot remain with their current price.
One can argue about different things being too strong or too weak in the patch, but Swarm hosts are just broken.
For example I just played a game on SEA just to try to out the live version of the patch. I have never played on SEA before but it put me against an opponent with a macro that was at least 2-3 leagues lower than me. I am Diamond on EU and it felt like I was playing against a silver level player.
A Zerg player that had 10-15 fewer workers then me until late game without me having killed a single of his workers! That was how bad his macro was.
So I attack him with tanks/thors and hellbats in the midgame. Even though I kill one of his expansion, crush his army and kill lots of workers he insta build 25 dirt cheap swarmhosts and I have to run for my life with my entire army. The rest of the game was him spamming swarmhosts with some ling and muta support and me throwing away all my tanks, every thought of playing positional mech and trying to fight him with hellion/banshee/viking/thor. He was bad at using Swarmhost but I still had to fight for my life. I shudder to think what would happen against an equal opponent that knows how to use the swarm hosts.
The game was insanely close and even though I eventually won it should not have been this close. If a silver level player can get a close game against a Diamond level player just by abusing swarm hosts I can not see mech being playable against Zerg at all.
I urge Blizzard to increase the cost of swarm hosts fast, they are just broken right now.
The rest of the adjustments can come later but there is not much point of playing mech until the swarm host is fixed.
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I'd like to remind everyone that +50 games is not sufficient enough data to make any decisions yet. It could provide insight, but it definitely is not an indication of mech's viability.
I'm not saying this patch is on the money or way off mark, but I would like to ask everyone to keep an open mind first. Let Blizzard implement this patch, and than let's get more data. No one, not even Blizzard, can know the full extent of this patch and how it impacts the matchup. It might create a new meta that will be just as stale as the Winfestor/BL during the last months of WoL, or a diverse and deep meta with multiple units and varying compositions.
We need more than anecdotal experience before any definitive statements can be made, and we won't have that until everyone (from pros to plebs) can get a chance to dive in.
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![[image loading]](http://img.bhs4.com/05/9/05989e22cda849409261831b100d53d4b74fe85c_large.jpg)
so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes?
NOBODY
who here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest?
NOBODY
conclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs
its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down
THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!
SOLUTION:
either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones
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On November 22 2016 17:48 avilo wrote:
Going to comment, i'd like people that read/respond to keep in mind i'd already played and seen 50+ games of the "test mod" which is basically the same as the live patch is now:
Mech is the same if not worse on this patch. Infestor burrow, but mainly invincible nydus and swarmhost in particular are broken as hell. Needs to be hotfixed. I mentioned that swarmhosts needed to be hotfixed months ago when the test mod came out and for some reason other people did and it was ignored. The patch is going to kill the game if swarmhosts are not fixed within the next few days.
Next is, this patch did absolutely nothing to address mech anti-air issues vs all capital ships/broods. Protoss can make pure carrier, and then add in high templar / archon underneath and your anti-air is actually even WORSE because cyclones are suck against air. Not like they worked before, but now they're 10x worse.
As for Protoss...Protoss is basically in the same boat as mech Terran. I think most Protoss players will quit the game after they realize every game is about to turn into infestor/swarmhost type of non-sense, as well as baneling buff ruining both ZvT and PvZ. Banelings were already strong vs both races, now it's a problem.
This patch really did not address issues or increase mech viability because blizzard does the same mistake they do every time when it comes to mech viability. Buff 1 thing of mech while buffing 20 of the anti-mech things (such as hydralisks, the buff was unnecessary). It's terrible.
I honestly think they missed a lot of huge issues too like:
-adept is not balanced properly still
-invincible nydus worm still in the game (shouldn't be)
-mass reaper is still in the game (shouldn't be)
-swarmhost on test map needed a hotfix, still does
Disappointing patch. Disappointing wait for the patch. Disappointing they listened to absolutely no feedback about mech anti-air, and just overall disappointed that they have no clue what they are doing.
My god, whole year you were whining about Vipers being OP, imba and shit and now it's hydra. swarmhost, infesors...Even freaking banelings which nobody makes vs mech. So let me get this straight? Vipers are no longer imba right?
Almost every proposal you give is making particular race unplayable vs your own style of play. You demand only buffs for mech- especially for turtle mech. It's as if i would demand from Blizzard that mutalisks must counter everything in the game because i like them. Please stop and make your own gameplay more complex than only one route which is camping on mass tanks and turrets till max.
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so the patch isn't live ? I can't wait to just mass chargelots.
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The patch is live in NA, it has been live in SEA since yesterday, not sure about EU though.
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On November 23 2016 02:14 FoxDog wrote:so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes? NOBODYwho here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest? NOBODYconclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!SOLUTION: either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones
Definitely not a good patch. Unit roles are still hopelessly defined.
And think about this: Is there any situation where a zerg player would want to adjust his Hydra count against mech terran?
Is there any way a mech'ing terran can adjust his mech composition to be better/worse against Hydras?
Or is Hydras just a unit you can blindly mass when you see mech?
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On November 23 2016 08:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 02:14 FoxDog wrote:so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes? NOBODYwho here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest? NOBODYconclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!SOLUTION: either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones Definitely not a good patch. Unit roles are still hopelessly defined. And think about this: Is there any situation where a zerg player would want to adjust his Hydra count against mech terran? Is there any way a mech'ing terran can adjust his mech composition to be better/worse against Hydras? Or is Hydras just a unit you can blindly mass when you see mech?
Are you saying that Zerg players just make hydras and a move?
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EPT
