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On November 23 2016 11:49 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 08:46 Hider wrote:On November 23 2016 02:14 FoxDog wrote:![[image loading]](http://img.bhs4.com/05/9/05989e22cda849409261831b100d53d4b74fe85c_large.jpg) so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes? NOBODYwho here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest? NOBODYconclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!SOLUTION: either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones Definitely not a good patch. Unit roles are still hopelessly defined. And think about this: Is there any situation where a zerg player would want to adjust his Hydra count against mech terran? Is there any way a mech'ing terran can adjust his mech composition to be better/worse against Hydras? Or is Hydras just a unit you can blindly mass when you see mech? Are you saying that Zerg players just make hydras and a move?
I rather say you have trouble reading.
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On November 23 2016 08:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 02:14 FoxDog wrote:so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes? NOBODYwho here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest? NOBODYconclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!SOLUTION: either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones Definitely not a good patch. Unit roles are still hopelessly defined. And think about this: Is there any situation where a zerg player would want to adjust his Hydra count against mech terran? Is there any way a mech'ing terran can adjust his mech composition to be better/worse against Hydras? Or is Hydras just a unit you can blindly mass when you see mech?
Stop theorycrafting and let people test it out properly, it's out for literally hours only. What do you mean by "unit roles are still hopelessly defined"?
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On November 23 2016 12:14 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 08:46 Hider wrote:On November 23 2016 02:14 FoxDog wrote:so who here is going to make cyclones over tanks as an anti armored counter past 10 minutes? NOBODYwho here is going to make new thor over vikings to engage brood/carrier/tempest? NOBODYconclusion is this is a failpatch, redesign cyclone to act as a goliath aka long range single target anti armored, and make thor do more splash ffs its a 1.88 speed commitment that dies and costs you the game if you lose ANY engagements, its idioticly risky, and with abduct and blinding cloud the speed makes the unit both predictable and EZ to chase down THE THOR IS MECHS VIABILITY, IF IT DOES NOT DO ITS JOB MECH WILL NOT WORK!SOLUTION: either you should make thors immune to neural/abduct/blindingcloud/fungal or you need to look at those abilities and actually balance the game, having many small units is always going to be better then a few slow big units as long as you have massively overpowered abilities that work a hundred times as well against fewer stronger units than many weak ones Definitely not a good patch. Unit roles are still hopelessly defined. And think about this: Is there any situation where a zerg player would want to adjust his Hydra count against mech terran? Is there any way a mech'ing terran can adjust his mech composition to be better/worse against Hydras? Or is Hydras just a unit you can blindly mass when you see mech? Stop theorycrafting and let actual people test it out properly, it's out for literally hours only. What do you mean by "unit roles are still hopelessly defined"?
I gave an example of that in my post. (proper weakness's and strenghts that forces players to adjust their compositions throughout the game in relation to what the opponent is doing).
Stop theorycrafting and let actual people test it out properly, it's out for literally hours only.
Take your own advice and never post on this forum again because everything you write will be theorycrafting. If there isn't a theoretical reason for why Hydras aren't viable against all forms of mech throughout the entire game chances are that no amount of testing will change that.
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Hey! Let's buff Marine damage to 100. Oh and we should not be allowed to make any guesses or have any discussions on how that will impact the game dynamic before people gets time to test it.
/aQuaSC logic.
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Well, you guessed that Hydras will counter mech solely by themselves and massing them will be viable, now we'll actually play and see if it's going to be the case
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We (people that play the game) have been testing it pretty intensively for the last week so we're not scrambling to find the new meta on day 1 of the new patch.
Hydras counter tanks like lings counter marines. Sure, if you let your shit get surrounded by hydras its going to hurt. But that should not be happening to you and if it does then you got beat earlier in the game and need to look at your initial mistakes.
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Hider you post the most toxic contributions in this forum.. I don't know why but in every discussion you participate with these super harsh and rude comments, it's very disturbing honestly
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On November 23 2016 00:59 MockHamill wrote:
If mech is supposed to be viable then Swarm host cannot remain with their current price.
One can argue about different things being too strong or too weak in the patch, but Swarm hosts are just broken.
For example I just played a game on SEA just to try to out the live version of the patch. I have never played on SEA before but it put me against an opponent with a macro that was at least 2-3 leagues lower than me. I am Diamond on EU and it felt like I was playing against a silver level player.
A Zerg player that had 10-15 fewer workers then me until late game without me having killed a single of his workers! That was how bad his macro was.
So I attack him with tanks/thors and hellbats in the midgame. Even though I kill one of his expansion, crush his army and kill lots of workers he insta build 25 dirt cheap swarmhosts and I have to run for my life with my entire army. The rest of the game was him spamming swarmhosts with some ling and muta support and me throwing away all my tanks, every thought of playing positional mech and trying to fight him with hellion/banshee/viking/thor. He was bad at using Swarmhost but I still had to fight for my life. I shudder to think what would happen against an equal opponent that knows how to use the swarm hosts.
The game was insanely close and even though I eventually won it should not have been this close. If a silver level player can get a close game against a Diamond level player just by abusing swarm hosts I can not see mech being playable against Zerg at all.
I urge Blizzard to increase the cost of swarm hosts fast, they are just broken right now.
The rest of the adjustments can come later but there is not much point of playing mech until the swarm host is fixed.
"I killed his one base with 25 workers...The game was insanely close and it shouldn't"
WOW that sounds almost exactly like every ZvT from Zergs perspective when Zeeg kills Terran economy and he just drops mules and plays further like nothing happened. Why should only Terran have come back mechanics?
Seems to me that Zerg u played did pretty much good job with coming back.
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Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out.
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Sorry to break the Mech Debate, but i feel like Blizzard shitted on my face for PvZ...
New maps make B3 really difficult to take for P in PvZ, while the nerf adept make them getting rekt by lings .Z will always have econ advantage on those maps.
Hydra are so powerfull they will be the answer to everything i pull out, owning Carriers, and destroy even more any reliance you could have on gateball. Their range make them really less vulnerable to Disruptor (Collosus A click unit back yeeaaah fun fun fun) and punish harder any drop harass you would try late game (who's already a bit nerfed)
The only solution to own big Roach Hydra will be heavy robo which will need intense scouting for not getting owned by any small Muta switch. Blink&glaives feel useless now, so the switch for countering muta will be even more harder.
Getting Carriers will require insane turtle, i found turtling vs a Z can be fun, but you still need a big critical mass if you expect to beat hydra with them.
On the other side, you feel like Z just take eco advantage you can't deny, spam inject, Hydra (lurker if needed) & A click.
I said bye to the next season i guess.
edit : Oh i forgot the possible comeback of Swarmhost. I've read that they've got powerful again, idk how close to pre-patch HotS they are now, but back then i've NEVER won against them if it was'nt right away the moment i saw them. And same for Kor players,missed maybe some games, but i've NEVER saw a Kor win against them if it was'nt right away (i guess it's for that reason they did'nt waited for LotV to patch back then). This is the final touch that just make this patch unbearable.
I won't try hard finding solutions against a so bad play style, neither will i All in most of time again in this match up.
I'm done and i'm sure i will not be the only P one.
PvZ was a match up with relatively weak whine on both side i feel, this is the end. P will feel forced to all in & do nasty things all the time and Z will hate P again for throwing all kind of all in & strong harass& pression they can make. Salt level will increase, for sure.
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On November 23 2016 13:05 Probe1 wrote:
We (people that play the game) have been testing it pretty intensively for the last week so we're not scrambling to find the new meta on day 1 of the new patch.
Hydras counter tanks like lings counter marines. Sure, if you let your shit get surrounded by hydras its going to hurt. But that should not be happening to you and if it does then you got beat earlier in the game and need to look at your initial mistakes.
Let's be honest here, none of us is actually good at the game compared to high level player, and none of our build are refined or optimised to take into account the new timings introduced by the changes in units. How many "broken strategies" at the release of LoTV were truly broken in the end? Some of them, for sure, but a lot of the stuff were just the results of unoptimised builds. It's silly to give definitive and absolute opinion at the moment, although it's natural to discuss with skepticism some choices (looking at you, SwarmHost).
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On November 23 2016 21:08 Vanadiel wrote:
Let's be honest here, none of us is actually good at the game compared to high level player, and none of our build are refined or optimised to take into account the new timings introduced by the changes in units. How many "broken strategies" at the release of LoTV were truly broken in the end? Some of them, for sure, but a lot of the stuff were just the results of unoptimised builds. It's silly to give definitive and absolute opinion at the moment, although it's natural to discuss with skepticism some choices (looking at you, SwarmHost).
Sure, but stats are already speaking from themselves
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2
Z is already more played then it was, putting the numbers of T players behind.
Protoss Surprisingly goes downward. guess winners always go to the top as the losers goes on the ground.
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On November 23 2016 18:05 Kiwan wrote:
Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out.
I don't see how you feel the new patch is fun. TvZ mech is back to raven vs SH/viper dynamic (free energy based damage vs free energy based damage + free units), that's extremely boring.
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On November 23 2016 22:25 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 18:05 Kiwan wrote:
Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out. I don't see how you feel the new patch is fun. TvZ mech is back to raven vs SH/viper dynamic (free energy based damage vs free energy based damage + free units), that's extremely boring.
I never thought that TvZ Mech could be anything but that in SC2 so that's not surprising for me, but on the other hand mech could kinda work in TvP no?
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On November 23 2016 22:33 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 22:25 JackONeill wrote:On November 23 2016 18:05 Kiwan wrote:
Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out. I don't see how you feel the new patch is fun. TvZ mech is back to raven vs SH/viper dynamic (free energy based damage vs free energy based damage + free units), that's extremely boring. I never thought that TvZ Mech could be anything but that in SC2 so that's not surprising for me, but on the other hand mech could kinda work in TvP no?
Nah mech still won't work against protoss. You can die to so many things that any composition you build has a very clear counter from protoss.
Warp prism's ranged pickup + how terrible the cyclone's AA is means you're forced into turreting up.
Cyclones are good vs stalkers and immortals, but their DPS is horrible against zealots and adepts (which are the frontliners).
Thors are supposed to counter air, but they suck so hard against immortals (4 immortals 2 shot a thor).
Disruptors still outrange tanks.
And most of all : phenixes openers deny any attempt to push out until you have a healthy viking count or few thors. But if you go for such a AA units investment to move out and be agressive, you're simply gonna die on the ground to the chargelot/immortals transition.
Overall either toss forces you to counter air and then trashes you on the ground, either toss streches out your defenses with ground units to the point where you can't ever move out, which allows him to go for the "unbeatable stuff" (10+ disruptors, 8+ carriers, tradebase, etc).
Mech is still terrible against protoss. Maybe less terrible, but making it work without gimmicks (cloack BS, killing an insane amount of workers very early on, liberator range cheeses, etc.) is still impossible.
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On November 23 2016 22:42 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 22:33 Vanadiel wrote:On November 23 2016 22:25 JackONeill wrote:On November 23 2016 18:05 Kiwan wrote:
Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out. I don't see how you feel the new patch is fun. TvZ mech is back to raven vs SH/viper dynamic (free energy based damage vs free energy based damage + free units), that's extremely boring. I never thought that TvZ Mech could be anything but that in SC2 so that's not surprising for me, but on the other hand mech could kinda work in TvP no? Nah mech still won't work against protoss. You can die to so many things that any composition you build has a very clear counter from protoss. Warp prism's ranged pickup + how terrible the cyclone's AA is means you're forced into turreting up. Cyclones are good vs stalkers and immortals, but their DPS is horrible against zealots and adepts (which are the frontliners). Thors are supposed to counter air, but they suck so hard against immortals (4 immortals 2 shot a thor). Disruptors still outrange tanks. And most of all : phenixes openers deny any attempt to push out until you have a healthy viking count or few thors. But if you go for such a AA units investment to move out and be agressive, you're simply gonna die on the ground to the chargelot/immortals transition. Overall either toss forces you to counter air and then trashes you on the ground, either toss streches out your defenses with ground units to the point where you can't ever move out, which allows him to go for the "unbeatable stuff" (10+ disruptors, 8+ carriers, tradebase, etc). Mech is still terrible against protoss. Maybe less terrible, but making it work without gimmicks (cloack BS, killing an insane amount of workers very early on, liberator range cheeses, etc.) is still impossible.
good that you have figured out the game already.
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Russian Federation54 Posts
On November 23 2016 22:42 JackONeill wrote:
Disruptors still outrange tanks.
Wrong. Tank has 13 range. Disruptor max flight 11+1.5 radius =12.5
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I'm loosing all of my games  but I'm really having fun playing on the old maps 
I guess it's just nostalgia or something, but I'm liking this
(I can't really comment about balance, since I'm quite the nooblet)
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I'm doing horrible on ladder, but I think it's quite fun so far. Gotta get used to the old maps again and find a crisp build.
Hydras are strong, but somehow with the upgrades being split they only get really strong when it feels a bit late. Not sure if I should try double hydra den.
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This patch has me made unistall SC2.
"Play mech !" -> in TvT you better go tank hellion, cyclone sucks and takes to much time.
"Play Mech! "- > in TvZ every Mech unit is countered by the Hydra. Tanks do less DPS thanks to attack speed nerf, with hellions its a numbers game, but with the new range you die. Oh and cyclones not even get near the Hydras.
"Play Mech !" -> in TvP Making MMM seems to still be the best way, Protoss should just outmacro those who try to get tanks.
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EPT
