|
On November 23 2016 21:08 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 13:05 Probe1 wrote:
We (people that play the game) have been testing it pretty intensively for the last week so we're not scrambling to find the new meta on day 1 of the new patch.
Hydras counter tanks like lings counter marines. Sure, if you let your shit get surrounded by hydras its going to hurt. But that should not be happening to you and if it does then you got beat earlier in the game and need to look at your initial mistakes. Let's be honest here, none of us is actually good at the game compared to high level player, and none of our build are refined or optimised to take into account the new timings introduced by the changes in units. How many "broken strategies" at the release of LoTV were truly broken in the end? Some of them, for sure, but a lot of the stuff were just the results of unoptimised builds. It's silly to give definitive and absolute opinion at the moment, although it's natural to discuss with skepticism some choices (looking at you, SwarmHost).
Very good post Vanadiel.
It's ok to discuss strategies/compositions/units that might be "broken" but let's not make absolute statements until the pros start refining and perfecting the builds.
Blizzard already stated they are designing the game to be the hardest game to play, so that implies it's being designed around the pros. Let the pros truly show us what is imbalanced/broken/poorly designed.
|
On November 23 2016 22:18 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 21:08 Vanadiel wrote:
Let's be honest here, none of us is actually good at the game compared to high level player, and none of our build are refined or optimised to take into account the new timings introduced by the changes in units. How many "broken strategies" at the release of LoTV were truly broken in the end? Some of them, for sure, but a lot of the stuff were just the results of unoptimised builds. It's silly to give definitive and absolute opinion at the moment, although it's natural to discuss with skepticism some choices (looking at you, SwarmHost). Sure, but stats are already speaking from themselves http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Z is already more played then it was, putting the numbers of T players behind. Protoss Surprisingly goes downward. guess winners always go to the top as the losers goes on the ground.
The season is less than 24 hours old you cannot start extrapolating meaningful things from such an incomplete data set.
On November 24 2016 00:08 Musicus wrote:
I'm doing horrible on ladder, but I think it's quite fun so far. Gotta get used to the old maps again and find a crisp build.
Hydras are strong, but somehow with the upgrades being split they only get really strong when it feels a bit late. Not sure if I should try double hydra den.
in vP you need the gas and it doesn't matter to get them quick. vT I feel like there's this beautiful timing around 9 minutes for all hydra upgrades and 2/2 to be finished with an infestation pit on the way and hive next. Waves of lings to hold em and hydras to scold em. It's wonderful. Seeing all those medivacs die is amazing.
Getting around 6-8 mutas seems to be great as well. Your armies decent. Your harass is decent. And for once you can actually deal with Terrans harass instead of shooing it away for a minute only to have it come back. This is a great time to play.
|
On November 24 2016 00:18 KT_Elwood wrote:
This patch has me made unistall SC2.
"Play mech !" -> in TvT you better go tank hellion, cyclone sucks and takes to much time.
"Play Mech! "- > in TvZ every Mech unit is countered by the Hydra. Tanks do less DPS thanks to attack speed nerf, with hellions its a numbers game, but with the new range you die. Oh and cyclones not even get near the Hydras.
"Play Mech !" -> in TvP Making MMM seems to still be the best way, Protoss should just outmacro those who try to get tanks.
This is why I can´t rely on all these "Mech still sucks" comments if people use Units against Units they shouldn´t be good against in the first place. Thats like using Marauders against Zealots and then go "Bio sucks" .
Put something between your Tanks and the opponents Hydras. Aren´t Hydras weak against splash? Last time I checked they were. I watched some games and players were doing quite okay. Even against Protoss. I think you are not supposed to tech to Tanks immediately against P. That´s why I think they redesigned the Cyclone so you can move out earlier and harass with more than just Hellions.
And please don´t forget that the Patch is just out for one day. Players are still experimenting.
|
On November 23 2016 13:55 VHbb wrote:
Hider you post the most toxic contributions in this forum.. I don't know why but in every discussion you participate with these super harsh and rude comments, it's very disturbing honestly
Because I don't see any reason to speak pleasantly to ignorant people (as in the combination of arrogant and unknowledable/refusing to learn). I don't give a whole lot about the feelings of those people who influence the community with completely wrong ideas.
And I am especially not fond of people who doesn't spend reading my posts and/or doesn't reflect upon what I wrote before responding to my post in a negative fashion. If one is honestly not sure what my point is after reading it, then that's a different matter, however that's not the vibe I am getting.
|
On November 23 2016 12:29 aQuaSC wrote:
Well, you guessed that Hydras will counter mech solely by themselves and massing them will be viable, now we'll actually play and see if it's going to be the case
Nope, what I said that if you make Hydras in the first place against mech why ever stop producing them. Mech has no realistic transition possible to reward the zerg player to stop producing Hydras.
When I talk about "unit roles" how did you come to the conclusion that I was talking about balance as in Hydra > Mech. I never once said Hydras' were OP/should be nerfed.
I don't have a clue about balance, however what I know alot about is game-designed related to Starcraft, and once you get the hang of it, it's very easy to see how the meta-game (roughly) will plan out and whether the consequences are positive/negative.
For instance, LOTV - general metagame/unit redesigns and introductions - were relatively predictable. I could see what would work and what definitely wouldn't and what would be meh'ish from blizzcon 2014 already.
Point being that if you have the skillset and knowledge of a certain area, go ahead and make a prediction, and then let's have a discussion over that prediction.
|
I've never drawn any kind of conclusion about that unit roles thing. It just wasn't clear to me what you meant by that and I still don't since you didn't answer.
I'm not fond of people calling me a 'bullshitter' and if you are that amazing at analyzing game I guess you should be more vocal in the community and make the game better. Don't bother to respond, I don't want to discuss it anymore
|
On November 24 2016 01:09 aQuaSC wrote:
I've never drawn any kind of conclusion about that unit roles thing. It just wasn't clear to me what you meant by that and I still don't since you didn't answer.
I'm not fond of people calling me a 'bullshitter' and if you are that amazing at analyzing game I guess you should be more vocal in the community and make the game better. Don't bother to respond, I don't want to discuss it anymore
I apologize if you genuinly didn't understand my comment after properly reading it and was asking an honest question.
However, I get triggered when someone wants to prevent a discussion from taking place because we can't know everything with 100% certainty. I don't think that mentality provides healthy discussions.
and if you are that amazing at analyzing game I guess you should be more vocal in the community and make the game better.
Been doing that way way too long and its a huge waste of time. I no longer have the same patience as I did years ago.
However, I asked the question, what could make a Zerg player stop producing Hydralisks once he sees he is facing mech? Unless there is a very strong answer to that, my point stands (unit roles aren't well defined with clear weaknes's and strenghts).
|
On November 24 2016 00:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 13:55 VHbb wrote:
Hider you post the most toxic contributions in this forum.. I don't know why but in every discussion you participate with these super harsh and rude comments, it's very disturbing honestly Because I don't see any reason to speak pleasantly to ignorant people (as in the combination of arrogant and unknowledable/refusing to learn). I don't give a whole lot about the feelings of those people who influence the community with completely wrong ideas. And I am especially not fond of people who doesn't spend reading my posts and/or doesn't reflect upon what I wrote before responding to my post in a negative fashion. If one is honestly not sure what my point is after reading it, then that's a different matter, however that's not the vibe I am getting.
This makes your post very toxic for the discussion. To be honest I tend to just skip them because I don't want to read this kind of negativity in a videogame forum: maybe it's also a problem from your side, since this happens in almost every discussion I read where you participate (not only about balance / sc2).
More than making a point, it seems you try to get a negative response from the people you are talking to, by being very rude.
|
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 24 2016 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game.
Swarm Hosts are dead supply for whole minute. Stop whine.
Banshees are drops of new mech.
|
On November 24 2016 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game.
I don't understand your post. Are you trying to say that swarm hosts makes mech completely nonviable?
If that is true, exactly how many swarm hosts does a zerg need to completely negate any and all mech compositions? If they only need 1-3 swarm host, than I would completely agree that Blizzard needs to address it. But if a zerg player needs 6-8 swarm hosts, than swarm hosts might not need to be nerfed.
Here are some questions I want you to ask yourself. Can I reliably scout a zerg going swarm hosts? If I do scout it, do I have time to field out the necessary units to counter it? Can I disrupt the zerg if he went swarm hosts? Will my disruption significantly delay his ability to get a sufficient number of swarm hosts?
Remember, this game is designed around the pros. None of us are pros though, and even they struggle with the game.
Let's not jump to conclusions about any unit until there is sufficient data.
Hider, your questions about hydra are very good, but you pose them almost rhetorically. This doesn't encourage a discussion. And I agree with Vhbb. Your comments are toxic. You have an arrogant attitude that dilutes and confuses your message.
Existor, no need to be rude and say Mock is whining. He is encountering a problem with swarm hosts. Now his approach to solving it may not be optimal, but that doesn't mean he is whining.
|
soO is playing the new patch on NA, what a time to be alive
|
On November 24 2016 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game.
Honestly, at this point, I gotta recognize you guys have a lot of faith. How many times did Blizzard say they would make mech viable? Has that ever happened? I've been hearing this since HoTS was announced. Tbh, I don't think they ever had that intention. I guess they just keep talking about it to keep the interest (hope) going on.
Btw, I know someone will come up with the point: "but in the end of HoTS, mech was viable!". I don't consider massing ravens mech.
|
On November 24 2016 02:11 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game. Swarm Hosts are dead supply for whole minute. Stop whine. Banshees are drops of new mech.
It is not whining. It is not some weakness in my play style that makes Swarm Hosts broken.
They simply are broken against mech. It is a fact. If you believe otherwise it simple means you are not a Terran mech player, or you have simply not played enough games.
I have played extensively on the test map, I warned Blizzard repeatable for releasing Swarm Hosts in their current state but here we are.
In most cases wait and see may be a better approach. But in this case anything but a hotfix is mistake that
waste valuable testing time since we can not investigate the rest of the game until this is fixed.
I know it may be fun to abuse a feature for ladder points. But please think about what is actually good for the game.
|
Just did my placements. Former Gold 1 Protoss now sat in Silver 3 :/
I've only played one PvT so far but those new tanks are insane, I couldn't push into the Terran at all (this game took place on cross spawns Whirlwind too so pretty long rush distance) even with Immortals it seemed hard, might be because I was prepare for Bio, but even then, I'm not sure Archon/Immortal will cut it. I'm hoping to get a few more PvTs just to see if I can figure something out.
PvZ I've been shit at since LotV release and my woes are getting worse in this match-up with these new hydras. I've had most luck with chargelots so far if it's small groups of them but a roach hydra army feels really difficult to beat straight up. The one game I did win in PvZ was my opponent playing super greedy so I found a window where I could get adepts in to do some great eco damage and not die to a counter attack.
However if the Zerg manages to stall my own expansions/eco enough I feel even more helpless than I did before :/
|
On November 24 2016 00:20 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 22:18 Kenny_mk wrote:On November 23 2016 21:08 Vanadiel wrote:
Let's be honest here, none of us is actually good at the game compared to high level player, and none of our build are refined or optimised to take into account the new timings introduced by the changes in units. How many "broken strategies" at the release of LoTV were truly broken in the end? Some of them, for sure, but a lot of the stuff were just the results of unoptimised builds. It's silly to give definitive and absolute opinion at the moment, although it's natural to discuss with skepticism some choices (looking at you, SwarmHost). Sure, but stats are already speaking from themselves http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Z is already more played then it was, putting the numbers of T players behind. Protoss Surprisingly goes downward. guess winners always go to the top as the losers goes on the ground. The season is less than 24 hours old you cannot start extrapolating meaningful things from such an incomplete data set. Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 00:08 Musicus wrote:
I'm doing horrible on ladder, but I think it's quite fun so far. Gotta get used to the old maps again and find a crisp build.
Hydras are strong, but somehow with the upgrades being split they only get really strong when it feels a bit late. Not sure if I should try double hydra den. in vP you need the gas and it doesn't matter to get them quick. vT I feel like there's this beautiful timing around 9 minutes for all hydra upgrades and 2/2 to be finished with an infestation pit on the way and hive next. Waves of lings to hold em and hydras to scold em. It's wonderful. Seeing all those medivacs die is amazing. Getting around 6-8 mutas seems to be great as well. Your armies decent. Your harass is decent. And for once you can actually deal with Terrans harass instead of shooing it away for a minute only to have it come back. This is a great time to play.
Those stats are saying toss just don't want to play toss for now just by seeing the patch, while Z does & T maintain. It speak already for me. Someone earlier says we need to wait for pro for balance, things is , i think blizzard always tried to maintain at decent Balance from plat level, which for me seems totally unachieved here.
And yeah sure, for Z from what i've experienced PvZ and what i'm reading from TvZ it's a WONDERFUL time to play , everything is "decent" ( lol! at least yes ) sure, i agree with you here. Enjoy your ZvZ , cause it will be most of your game for quite some time.
You can blame me for being toxic, but having a lot of fun on SC2 lately, i can tell you you would'nt like to wake up to a game like this. I've thinked about this f* up patch a lot this day, i never was so mad on a patch. I'm pretty sure SC2 lost players more than in a temporary way in this patch.
|
On November 24 2016 02:34 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 02:11 Existor wrote:On November 24 2016 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
I am not sure there is even any point of playing TvZ right now.
Blizzard for the love of all that is good please nerf Swarm hosts as fast as you can!
Everything else in the game will need further testing but it is not even possible to test the game right now due to Swarm hosts. We have no idea if mech is viable in TvZ or if Hydra is too strong, because Swarm hosts prevent us from experiencing the rest of the game.
Only if Swarm host are nerfed will it be possible to figure out if mech is viable in TvZ, if there are certain areas or timings that are too strong, if Raven buff is OP in late game TvZ etc. But right now we can not even test this due to Swarm Hosts.
There is only one counter to Swarm host right now and that is to play bio. But one of the primary reasons for the patch was to make mech viable, please fix this issue so that we can continue testing the game. Swarm Hosts are dead supply for whole minute. Stop whine. Banshees are drops of new mech. It is not whining. It is not some weakness in my play style that makes Swarm Hosts broken. They simply are broken against mech. It is a fact. If you believe otherwise it simple means you are not a Terran mech player, or you have simply not played enough games. I have played extensively on the test map, I warned Blizzard repeatable for releasing Swarm Hosts in their current state but here we are. In most cases wait and see may be a better approach. But in this case anything but a hotfix is mistake that waste valuable testing time since we can not investigate the rest of the game until this is fixed. I know it may be fun to abuse a feature for ladder points. But please think about what is actually good for the game.
So you are playing absolutely perfectly? Your play style has no room for improvement that might help you deal with swarm hosts?
Those are rhetorical questions, but your arrogance is showing.
How extensive have you played the test map? Did you have a partner to test your statement about swarm hosts? Did you do several hundred games that showed the same outcome?
You may very well be right, but its still too soon to tell.
|
So players need hundred of games to counter playstyle that are proven by their non-pro players the days the patch is out? good to know
|
On November 23 2016 23:23 Couguar wrote:Wrong. Tank has 13 range. Disruptor max flight 11+1.5 radius =12.5
Wrong, disruptors outrange tanks. If you're gonna be a fact-checker, at least check facts correctly.
http://imgur.com/a/kQKBE
On November 23 2016 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2016 22:42 JackONeill wrote:On November 23 2016 22:33 Vanadiel wrote:On November 23 2016 22:25 JackONeill wrote:On November 23 2016 18:05 Kiwan wrote:
Just wanted to say enjoying the new patch! Too early to say what needs tweaking but it's definitely at least fun with all the new dynamics and working things out. I don't see how you feel the new patch is fun. TvZ mech is back to raven vs SH/viper dynamic (free energy based damage vs free energy based damage + free units), that's extremely boring. I never thought that TvZ Mech could be anything but that in SC2 so that's not surprising for me, but on the other hand mech could kinda work in TvP no? Nah mech still won't work against protoss. You can die to so many things that any composition you build has a very clear counter from protoss. Warp prism's ranged pickup + how terrible the cyclone's AA is means you're forced into turreting up. Cyclones are good vs stalkers and immortals, but their DPS is horrible against zealots and adepts (which are the frontliners). Thors are supposed to counter air, but they suck so hard against immortals (4 immortals 2 shot a thor). Disruptors still outrange tanks. And most of all : phenixes openers deny any attempt to push out until you have a healthy viking count or few thors. But if you go for such a AA units investment to move out and be agressive, you're simply gonna die on the ground to the chargelot/immortals transition. Overall either toss forces you to counter air and then trashes you on the ground, either toss streches out your defenses with ground units to the point where you can't ever move out, which allows him to go for the "unbeatable stuff" (10+ disruptors, 8+ carriers, tradebase, etc). Mech is still terrible against protoss. Maybe less terrible, but making it work without gimmicks (cloack BS, killing an insane amount of workers very early on, liberator range cheeses, etc.) is still impossible. good that you have figured out the game already.
Good that you have no point whatsoever. If you disagree, explain why. I suppose that's how a forum works (but i might be wrong hey)
|
On November 24 2016 03:01 Kenny_mk wrote:
So players need hundred of games to counter playstyle that are proven by their non-pro players the days the patch is out? good to know
Proof? What proof was given? Hundreds of games aren't necessary. Hundreds of thousands of games played by tens of thousands of players from all skill levels are necessary for proof.
This is why I insist on waiting until the pros play the game before anything can be definitive. The pros are willing to play those thousands of games, hour after hour, but they don't do it to prove swarm hosts make mech nonviable. They do it to find a weakness in swarm hosts that might get them to win.
In other words, they play to try to win, not to try and get a unit nerfed/buffed.
The problem with so many players is that they immediately try to put the blame on balance/design, instead of trying to just play the game.
Once a player already decides X unit is over powered, they have made up their mind to not try to improve. They blame the system.
Again, I'm not trying to dissuade a discussion, or state the patch is fine L2P.
I'm trying to get everyone to stop with the absolute statements "X unit needs to be buffed" "This patch is horrible" "Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing".
They don't help, nor do they encourage discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
