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On October 01 2016 08:51 Zedd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 08:29 ShamanElemental1 wrote:On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
The agressor always has the advantage its one of the first rules of real time strategy. You are deying that the sky is blue. There is a reason people attack from more anggles to dissrupt the opponent. Search on google. I dont get it. In SC2, I have heard many times of defenders advantage, but never heard of attackers advantage.
Depends on the unit composition and what matchup we're talking about. Defending is usually harder unless you're playing a race where your supply buildings can shoot and you can warp units instantly.
In ZvZ lingbane aggression is always easier for the attacker, you would simply click banes to the opponents mineral line and then just micro your lings while defender has to snipe those banes while zoning your lings with his own banes.
In TvZ if you let zerg ling flood you you are in big trouble you have to do so many actions to recover
In ZvT drops in general requires attention but shutting them down is harder, you always have to send right amount of units everywhere to not lose frontal engagement.
In ZvP and TvP Adept is the most profitable and easiest form of harrass in lotv with low risk/required action and high value(game ending mostly). Defender must play perfectly in order to shut this down and while attacker just spam adepts and shade them to mineral line. And there is also the warp prism...
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ZERG HARDEST RACE CONFIRMED
I actually switched from terran to zerg because terran was too hard for me back in the day
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On October 01 2016 09:21 Exquisite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back. HA! Yea right... I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life. Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail.
You're right Exquisite, you didn't push me away from the game, Blizzard did. And Blizzard didn't ruin my life, they just ruined their own game.
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
Many problems have been around since WOL and HOTS that haven't been addressed. Simply forgetting about them and praising Blizzard doesn't solve them. At least I am trying to keep them relevant. The game has been going in circles balance and game design wise, while games like League are going clearly forward,
But you have 11 posts, so my guess is you'll be here until Blizzard does something you don't like, then you'll disappear. But I love SC2 so much, I'll still be here, still be trying to change the direction. So the river isn't for you, it is for SC2.
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well i guess after this feedback, there will be 90% zerg in foreginer top placement's rather than 70-80 ;(
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On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:21 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back. HA! Yea right... I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life. Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail. You're right Exquisite, you didn't push me away from the game, Blizzard did. And Blizzard didn't ruin my life, they just ruined their own game. The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League. Many problems have been around since WOL and HOTS that haven't been addressed. Simply forgetting about them and praising Blizzard doesn't solve them. At least I am trying to keep them relevant. The game has been going in circles balance and game design wise, while games like League are going clearly forward, But you have 11 posts, so my guess is you'll be here until Blizzard does something you don't like, then you'll disappear. But I love SC2 so much, I'll still be here, still be trying to change the direction. So the river isn't for you, it is for SC2.
No its bleeding users because RTS has the highest skill curve of any genre. EVER! People want to play this less and less because it takes an insane amount of focus in each game and it takes weeks if not months just to learn the basics. SC2 is difficult at the casual level. Most gamers in general are casual and want a game that is easy to jump into at any level. And LOL is easy to play as a casual gamer OR as a competitive gamer. And theres nothing wrong with that.
What I do have problem with, is people like yourself who say this:
"I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game."
and generally just give a bad name to the community by being negative about everything. As if David Kim and Blizzard aren't trying. They post updates about every other week to stay transparent. You should be grateful that they are always listening and less negative. You come off as entitled.
And how my 11 posts allows you to conclude my commitment to ANYTHING is beyond me. I've played Blizz games all my life and theres a reason for that... they make good games, just like SC2. So yes I'll praise them for trying because I know they care and that being negative isn't going to make a difference. And NO I'm not just gonna disappear, I would expect that from the likes of you.
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"I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game."
This +1
Having a developer that either plays the game at a high level (I just cant bring myself to think this about DK he always seems so out of touch with the state of the game) or at least a developer that has a clear and concise vision for the games longevity (I think we all know DK is just scrambling about) is what this game needs, and David Kim is neither.
Although I confess, buffing banelings after Centrifugal Hooks is a MUCH better change and the Larvae nerf has made Zerg almost impossible to play cleanly, theres just flat out too much shit to do. Yea I know APM is no indicator of skill but I do think it's a bit hilarious that every Protoss player I play against almost never has APM over 140 and almost every Terran and Zerg player has a similar 200 + APM, the mechanical requirements are just ridiculous at this point.
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Zerg Perspective:
Tempest Nerf: YES -- Felt a bit overpowered in ZvP on certain maps.
Baneling Nerf: NO -- ZvZ early game is fine to me.
Cyclone Change: Needs testing.
Raven Change: NO -- ZvT seems fine.
Own Idea: make the locusts of the swarm hosts a bit faster so it can be even to baneling drops and runbys as a harassment option.
General good Idea is to open up as many options as possible for all three races.
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Yeah Exquisite, um I tend to not waste too much energy on BronzeKnee and Avilo, and their ilk. They usually don't provide any actual feedback/criticism. Most of their posts are either incredibly biased or blatant bashing.
Onto the larvae autoinject, someone made a good post that for Terran and Protoss, their respective task (ie. mules/chrono) is only necessary to maintain during the early game and into the midgame. However, zerg must maintain injects throughout the entire game. That is quite true, and does give zerg a disadvantage in the late game where your attention is spread out incredibly thin. But if we remove the task of injects, zerg might be too easy to play because they will have less things to do.
I can't think of a viable solution, but it does seem unfair that T and P can neglect mules/chrono but zerg must always inject.
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On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun.
the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out
people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened.
Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death.
In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
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To be honest it's quite annoying to read all the mocking comments in every community feedback. Yeah I got it blizzard is late, slow mind, and you 're you're brilliant, you saw everything 4-6-10 years ago.
Seriously just focus on the present guys.
I'm looking forward to 2017. Would be great if they slowly remove macro boost like they did in beta, given now that they should have enough time to rebalance units around the the game without macro boost.
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On October 01 2016 11:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun. the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened. Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death. In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
I've heard the same excuse about 'RTS dying' for so many years. And yet, SC2 was going strong up untill LOTV. Apparently, the RTS genre started dying even harder a few months after LOTV's release. Strange, isn't it? Must be the new DOTA 2 hero announced recently or whatever new feature LOL released.
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On October 01 2016 11:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun. the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened. Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death. In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
Maybe RTS has failed to evolve the way other genres have, but comparing to to Pacman is pretty silly. The "dot-eating-mave" genre has pretty limited potential, RTS is much more general and can be so much more. And no, that doesn't mean we should MOBA-ize RTS games, Guardians of Atlas tried to do that and it died less than a month after release. RTS is not a genre of a bygone era, it's just a genre that's become more niche as more options have become available.
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VR is going to take away from all kinds of older genres. its happening right now. and there is fuck all game companies can do about their existing game franchises and revenue formulas getting annihilated by the shifting sand underneath their feet that is consumer tastes in the face of new emerging tech.
On October 01 2016 11:57 ihatevideogames wrote:
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
the RTS genre and its fundamentals were born in 1995. in 1995, 12 player low latency intense combat games were a rare occurance due to the low proliferation of broadband in 1995. in 1995 2 player low latency games were possible though. Now, broadband is everywhere and 12 player games are an easy thing for consumers.
Team Fortress and MOBAs did not take off until after 2004.. 2005 when broadband became common.
As broadband became more common games like Team Fortress and MOBAs grew in popularity because it was technically possible.
New tech creates new genres every decade.
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On October 01 2016 12:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:VR is going to take away from all kinds of older genres. its happening right now. and there is fuck all game companies can do about their existing game franchises and revenue formulas getting annihilated by the shifting sand underneath their feet that is consumer tastes in the face of new emerging tech. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 11:57 ihatevideogames wrote:
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
the RTS genre and its fundamentals were born in 1995. in 1995, 12 player low latency intense combat games were a rare occurance due to the low proliferation of broadband in 1995. in 1995 2 player low latency games were possible though. Now, broadband is everywhere and 12 player games are an easy thing for consumers. Team Fortress and MOBAs did not take off until after 2004.. 2005 when broadband became common. As broadband became more common games like Team Fortress and MOBAs grew in popularity because it was technically possible. New tech creates new genres every decade.
Well, you said OverWatch would be impossible in 2001, which is definitely not true, as it's spiritual grandfather already existed and multiplayer games with alot of players, even MMOs, already existed. Battlefield 1942 was 2002 and that had 64 players in a server.
Also, multiplayer games were quite popular in countries where internet cafes were common even way before 2004. And even at home, it was still possible to play some MMOs and multiplayer games. I clearly remember playing Lineage 2 in 2004 on 128kbps ISDN.
Anyway, this is not about broadband and online team games.
The RTS genre has been dying for years, yet SC2 didn't have such a massive exodus of players since the Broodfestor era.
People need to start admitting that LOTV itself is the problem, not the RTS genre dying. It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of annoyance. LOTV is more annoying to play than SC2 has ever been. At least DK is starting to see this, as he mentions it in this PR statement.
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On October 01 2016 13:09 ihatevideogames wrote:
it was still possible to play some MMOs and multiplayer games. I clearly remember playing Lineage 2 in 2004 on 128kbps ISDN.
and 2004 is not 1995. when the 2 player competitive RTS genre was born in the 90s 12 player team games were not possible. Consumers only choice in 1995 was 2 player or MAYBE 4. and RTS games before 1994 relied on all kinds of unusual connection methods or people just played single player.
1994 did not have the same level of connectivity and speed the common consumer now has in 2016. from 1994 we've seen a gradual improvement in internet speed and latency for the common consumer. As the improvements have occurred new game genres not possible in 1994 have emerged.
there is nothing game companies can due about consumers changing their tastes when given new choices due to new tech. that has been the case for 40 years. its not changing for Starcraft.
EDIT: i miscalculated the inflation with Pacman. Pacman grossed $12.8 Billion.
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Over time macro mechanics for protoss and terran get easier. While it is appreciated that larva can be injected multiple times simultaneously, that does not un-spill the milk. If you miss injections you miss your macro and fall behind. Catching up later isn't as valuable as not getting behind in the first place.
I just won a very even ZvZ because I stopped to inject mid fight. The fight could have decided the game but I correctly guessed he had fired all his biles and I had time. A minute down the line I had a larger army and my opponent had a larger bank. Sure he could queue up some injects but that doesn't do him a fat lot of good when he's lost his army, and then his fourth, and is getting insurmountably behind.
Compare this to Terran. In the early game scans and mules are extremely valuable. As the game goes on, potential mule energy is expected to be spent on scans. By default if a Terran misses some mules they don't die.
Compare this to Protoss. Chronoboost can be used intelligently with minimal alteration until the right time. It isn't something that needs changed every 30 seconds. It's devastating if your build relies on something to be chronoboosted at a specific time and you forget. But there are very few times where I have seen P repeatedly swap what is being chrono'd as often as a larva inject.
So the complaint I think is pretty well founded. Zerg needs to spread creep which is mechanically intensive. Zerg needs to inject larva which is mechanically intensive. And missing either of the two, despite pooling queen energy, doesn't un-spill that milk.
What should be done about it is well above my pay grade and I have no strong opinions about any of the suggestions. I'm not particularly keen on auto inject but I wouldn't be outraged if it was added. Equally so, if nothing was changed I wouldn't be upset. However I do think that it's a very, very accurate statement to say that Zerg has the hardest macro mechanics, and the most punishing if done poorly.
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The designers/balance devs are clueless, it's obvious they don't play their own game or pay attention to it or just don't know the game well enough.
Auto-turret is OP? But swarmhost not even mentioned and they buffed swarmhosts back to pre-nerf idiocy.
No mech-anti air, still after 4+ yrs. They actually removed mech anti-air on the test map via the cyclone changes.
And hmmm...no 8 armor ultra fixes, no invincible nydus worms, nothing about reaper coinflip TvT, nothing concrete about nerfing adepts (which are ridiculously OP).
On top of this...talking of destroying the game again in one patch via automatic larva inject.
I think a lot of people will honestly quit SC2 if auto larva inject is put into this game again. Did they not learn the first time they tried that? It made Zerg almost freewin status during LOTV beta.
Disappointed as usual. No concrete balance/number changes, just the usual "hey we might do something, maybe, next week."
At this point i honestly expected they'd already have changes ready to put on the test mod to be implemented and tested. Just more stalling as usual -_-
p.s. Post queen-range buff Zerg is the easiest race in SC2 - not the hardest. Basically every single Zerg player on ladder now benefits from the fitzyhere style for free.
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I just had a crazy idea....
What if Hatchery's could have the ability to spreed creep anywhere on the map as long as you have creep there.... and the creep would be way harder to clean up like Hots creep.
This way queens have more energy and its easier to keep them at home closer and easier to inject....
Or another simpler idea would be to buff the natural spawn of larva... that way injects would not be a must do all the time...
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Most of this looks pretty good, except for the auto inject thing. Not that jerg isn't hard, but it's just a nasty inelegant solution imo. I like the current inject compromise.
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On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless.
Yeah why didn't he get that time machine and go back four years ago, instead of doing it now? So disappointing.
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EPT
