|
Posted on behalf of David Kim:
Worker Counter
We discussed this a few weeks ago and got a lot of great feedback. Regarding worker/army supply matching the supply count, almost everyone agreed that the change regarding working/army supply matching the supply count was good, so we’ll try implementing it sometime soon.
At the same time, we received mixed feedback on displaying the counter all the time versus displaying it only when you move your mouse cursor over, as it is currently. Right now we feel that it’ll be best to leave this as-is. We don’t want extra clutter on-screen, and since it isn’t primary information that’s needed on the screen at all times, it just doesn’t stack well with team games.
KR Pro/Coaches Meeting
Last week, we had a chance to meet up with majority of the coaches in Korea as well as some of the pro players. Their main complaint was that StarCraft II is way too difficult to master even for the highest level pros. Initially, we responded that StarCraft II is meant to be the peak challenge of all games, and therefore it is supposed to be nearly impossible to master—even for the best gamers in the world. After we dug into the specifics, however, we found two main topics that we want to bring up with the StarCraft II community.
First, the Korean coaches and players felt that zerg requires many more actions than the other two races to be able to compete. To address this, they suggested that we bring back the automated larva injects that we tested in the beta. That’s a possibility, but bear in mind the buffs to other zerg units we’re exploring in the major redesign patch and zerg’s respectable performance in recent tournaments.
Secondly, they felt that some of the harassment options in Legacy of the Void are either too mobile or too strong. We mostly discussed Adepts, Tankivacs, and Warp Prisms as the key units on this front, however, and we already intend to address all three of these in the major redesign. We don’t have any action items resulting from this feedback, but we feel more confident than ever that we’re on the right track with the changes we currently have planned for the major redesign patch.
Adjustments to Balance Testing
We want to move pretty quickly with our next pass of changes since we didn’t get to discuss any community feedback last week. Let’s get the ball rolling on discussing upcoming changes so we can put them out as soon as possible—assuming everyone’s in agreement, of course.
Cyclone
There’s been an issue with the Cyclone’s weapon where its actual damage output was lower than its tooltip indicated. However, this lower damage output has been the value we have been intending to test against. We are adjusting the Cyclone weapon’s attack period and attack delays so that its damage output and tooltip line up with its intended values.
Baneling
We’re seeing feedback regarding Baneling health being too high (especially in the early game in ZvZ). If this is the case, we could simply move the health boost to come with Centrifugal Hooks instead of at tier 1. Please let us know if you agree with this direction.
Raven Auto Turret
We agree with your feedback that the Auto Turret’s damage after the upgrade appears to be too high right now, so we’d like to leave their damage as is, and change the upgrade so that it only further increases the effectiveness of Seeker Missiles. Therefore, the change we’re thinking of here is to remove the damage bonus to Auto Turrets from this upgrade, keep the damage bonus to Seeker Missiles, and also add a longer tracking time to Seeker Missiles through this upgrade. This way, Seeker Missiles will follow their target further before expiring.
Fast Teching to Tempest
We’re seeing a lot of feedback on the Tempest ability being too strong when players rush their tech directly to Tempests. To combat this, we could potentially add a research for this ability to help slow down the timing in which Disruption Sphere comes into play.
Protoss in General
We agree with a lot of your feedback saying the Void Ray change could potentially be a different option for Protoss to tech to, but some people also seem to feel that the Protoss need more tools at their disposal. We would love to hear some specific suggestions on this side, so that we can explore potential new strategic routes that we can test out.
Some of the ideas here that we’re currently discussing are: Finding ways to potentially buff Disruptors vs. Terran and/or Zerg, or Stalker base damage increased vs. light while keeping the total damage vs. armored the same.
We’re looking forward to reviewing your feedback, so please let us know your thoughts!
|
I always knew Zerg was hardest to play 
|
Because if anyone needs a buff it's protoss...
|
i like the possible change to the baneling. i play at a diamond/~100 APM level and for me i think its a good way to nerf the baneling. i play Terran 40% of the time and random 60%
Thanks for the insights from Korean pros. I think its important to insure the game is balanced at the top level even if that means my performance on the ladder declines due to a nerf that particularly harms low APM players like me.
|
I mean an adept nerf has been needed for awhile. Still think nerfing the cool down would be better, but the vision change might prove to be correct. Very curious how the game will be played in 2017.
|
Zerg was the only race that got easier in LotV because of staking inject, how are they the hardest?
|
Everything feels so random at this point.
|
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) which forces Blizzard to create new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no one harasses anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing.
|
On October 01 2016 07:11 Lexender wrote:
Zerg was the only race that got easier in LotV because of staking inject, how are they the hardest?
To be honest stacking injects has made it harder, at least for me.
|
On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing.
nah, that's the Greg Black "fast and fluid" RTS philosophy shining through. i'm neutral/agnostic on the "tech level" of spore crawlers.
On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017?
|
On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing.
the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch
|
The problem is not about auto turret ! People are complaining mass raven in TvT.
Baneling's upgrade seems good.
Zerg is too hard because korean terrans play their race at it peak.But i surprise that no korean player complains about ultra ? WTF :O
|
On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch
Only four years late. David Kim is clueless.
Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level.
On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017?
He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design.
Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game.
User was warned for this post
|
Secondly, they felt that some of the harassment options in Legacy of the Void are either too mobile or too strong. We mostly discussed Adepts, Tankivacs, and Warp Prisms as the key units on this front, however, and we already intend to address all three of these in the major redesign. We don’t have any action items resulting from this feedback, but we feel more confident than ever that we’re on the right track with the changes we currently have planned for the major redesign patch.
I've always felt the harass-purpose units were too annoying in SC2. The problem is the way SC2 tends to work is if you don't get any harass in the opponents economy explodes and you can get rolled over, so it's a tricky situation to fix and would require, as they mention, a massive game redesign to fix. Tankivacs being removed is a start and moves the game towards a slightly slower, more tactical game that most people I feel want.
|
On October 01 2016 07:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +
Secondly, they felt that some of the harassment options in Legacy of the Void are either too mobile or too strong. We mostly discussed Adepts, Tankivacs, and Warp Prisms as the key units on this front, however, and we already intend to address all three of these in the major redesign. We don’t have any action items resulting from this feedback, but we feel more confident than ever that we’re on the right track with the changes we currently have planned for the major redesign patch.
I've always felt the harass-purpose units were too annoying in SC2.
Harass units are a direct result of Blizzard wanting more action after they systematically destroyed the power of one base play. However if they are too weak, no one uses them, and if they are too strong, everyone does. There is little in between when information gathering is so easy.
I personally very much enjoyed trying to stop the one base 1-1-1 or 4 Gate army marching to my base, but abhor chasing Adepts around. One is a battle, one feels like a poorly conceived custom game.
|
People need to understand that KOREANS talk from they perspective.
At the highest level Zerg is the hardest race because you have to act and defend massive agression while injecting.
DEFENDING WAS ALWAYS HARDER THEN ATTACKING IN ANY GOD DAMN STRATEGY GAME.
THEN YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT ZERG HAS VERY LIITLE MICRO SO THEY CANT GET MUCH FROM THEIR UNITS UNLIKE THE OTHER TWO RACES.
So yes Zerg at the Korean Zerg is pretty bad.
Should they balance around Koreans or foreigners... that is the question for Blizz
|
Really? It took you till now to realize that harass is too strong? When toss can kill 20-30 workers with Adepts with no effort at all, just shade to the next base? Blizzard has no idea what they're doing, and with KT possibly disbanding they're finally seeing the consequences of their actions. Just sheer incompetence.
|
On October 01 2016 07:56 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
People need to understand that KOREANS talk from they perspective.
At the highest level Zerg is the hardest race because you have to act and defend massive agression while injecting.
DEFENDING WAS ALWAYS HARDER THEN ATTACKING IN ANY GOD DAMN STRATEGY GAME.
THEN YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT ZERG HAS VERY LIITLE MICRO SO THEY CANT GET MUCH FROM THEIR UNITS UNLIKE THE OTHER TWO RACES.
So yes Zerg at the Korean Zerg is pretty bad.
Should they balance around Koreans or foreigners... that is the question for Blizz
I might agree with them if they said zerg is too hard.
Nonetheless,their feedbacks this time are very good.Addressed what foreigners community want.
|
buffi defensive buildings; it is the simplest and best way.
for instance, delete overcharge and buff photon cannon's HP
|
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
|
I can just speak for myself as a terran. If zerg gets auto inject i would be really disappointed (mid master).
T and P have to focus on placing many buildings correctly, walling off at certain stages of the game, etc.
If z had autoinject what would be left? spreading creep building units appart form microing?
I think they should work on different fronts here.
and @microlife: of course attacking is easier (they speak of harass, not the frontial attacks i guess). The reason is you can prepare your attacks while the defender often has to react quickly. imagine 4 medivacs dropping at different locations. you would have to split your army perfectly to defend it well.
|
Why dont they just let us choose whether we want the army and worker supply counts displayed permanently or on mouseover?
|
On October 01 2016 08:10 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:56 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
People need to understand that KOREANS talk from they perspective.
At the highest level Zerg is the hardest race because you have to act and defend massive agression while injecting.
DEFENDING WAS ALWAYS HARDER THEN ATTACKING IN ANY GOD DAMN STRATEGY GAME.
THEN YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT ZERG HAS VERY LIITLE MICRO SO THEY CANT GET MUCH FROM THEIR UNITS UNLIKE THE OTHER TWO RACES.
So yes Zerg at the Korean Zerg is pretty bad.
Should they balance around Koreans or foreigners... that is the question for Blizz
I might agree with them if they said zerg is too hard. Nonetheless,their feedbacks this time are very good.Addressed what foreigners community want.
It really feels like they are trying to please everybody and its impossible.
The asimmetry in sc2 is so bad... its impossible to balance at all levels.
They need to choose one camp.
Yes it will piss alot of people but at least someone will be hapy instead of everyone being unhappy.
|
On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
but if you attack at multiple locations, then the defender has to defend at multiple locations...
|
On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game.
wtf does league of legends have to do with anything, it's a completely different game genre. there is no economic harassment in lol because there is no economy.
|
On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
The agressor always has the advantage its one of the first rules of real time strategy. You are deying that the sky is blue.
There is a reason people attack from more anggles to dissrupt the opponent.
Search on google.
|
Everyone i find in test mode in NA is a plat/diamond mecher. Hard to give an opinion about balance.
I like the new hydras a lot, they're very strong, hopefuly won't get nerfed too much and will still be viable by november.
|
On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game.
i don't feel ignored at all. of course i'm pretty careful about how often i criticize and what i criticize. however, i thought Terran air was too strong and ground was too weak at the start of LotV. The series of nerfs and buffs addressed that issue. Is it the perfect balance that i personally dream of in a game? nah, but DK is not here to make a game personally for me. the changes to Terran throughout LotV's 1st year have been good. I play 40% as Terran and 60% as Random and i don't have a strong opinion about the other races. I've been a Terran at heart since The Hammer Falls and I didn't care that the Academy was $200. 
I like the fast&fluid nature of C&C and DK took a sharp turn towards that style in the changes from HotS to LotV. I'm happy about that.
I didn't think the ladder revamp would impact my playing experience at all. I was wrong. The ladder revamp improved my experience. Is it a revolutionary change that makes SC2 better than mind expanding sex? no, but ladder is an improved experience.
i've spent ~$2500 (a lot of that was flying from TO to Southern Cal.) on the SC franchise the past 6 years and its been money well spent. Its a hella-fun, super-cheap hobby.
what you see is what you get man. you know DK , Blizzard's approach and SC2. it ain't changin'. if you are this dissatisfied there are lots of other RTS games with active communities like RA2, AoE2, AoE3, Generals, WC3, CoH1, CoH2 and Brood War that you can play. If you do not like any of the current available options then I'd say you are probably just flat out bored of RTS games and looking for a scape goat.
myself, when i'm sick of all the in-base economy babysitting, and in-base household chores of SC2 i play RA3. At this stage its tough for a new player to join in. The remaining community is a shark tank.
There is zero probability I'll get an RA3 style economy retrofitted into SC2 so i just don't bother asking for it. Blizzard has done a nice job with QoL features like worker counts over CCs and refineries to at least make economy babysitting more convenient. The "entire army" button rocks.
i am really pleased with how Greg Black has influenced SC2. He was the designer guy for RA3.
|
On October 01 2016 08:29 ShamanElemental1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
The agressor always has the advantage its one of the first rules of real time strategy. You are deying that the sky is blue. There is a reason people attack from more anggles to dissrupt the opponent. Search on google.
I dont get it. In SC2, I have heard many times of defenders advantage, but never heard of attackers advantage.
|
On October 01 2016 08:51 Zedd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 08:29 ShamanElemental1 wrote:On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
The agressor always has the advantage its one of the first rules of real time strategy. You are deying that the sky is blue. There is a reason people attack from more anggles to dissrupt the opponent. Search on google. I dont get it. In SC2, I have heard many times of defenders advantage, but never heard of attackers advantage.
Defenders advantage refers to the idea that your reinforcements arrive at the battle faster than the attacks as your production facilities are closer, as well as most maps giving the defender something like a choke point or a cliff to defend with.
I think the attackers advantage they're talking about mostly refers to being able to plan an attack and forcing a correct response out of the defender or do massive damage. It's easier to set up a 3 pronged attack and move in than it is to split your army and defend it correctly. I don't personally think this is an advantage in every situation, it's less impactful than defenders advantage most of the time.
|
On October 01 2016 08:19 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I can just speak for myself as a terran. If zerg gets auto inject i would be really disappointed (mid master).
T and P have to focus on placing many buildings correctly, walling off at certain stages of the game, etc.
If z had autoinject what would be left? spreading creep building units appart form microing?
I think they should work on different fronts here.
...
There is something though and it's especially obvious when you play random :
Protoss just need to select the building you want CB on, it's important in early mid game, but not so much in late game (remember in HotS/WoL when all Nexi were full energy in late game?) so after 12 mins you just need to not miss your warp-in cycles and you're free to focus on your army micro
Terran has to be spot on on mules, but once 3 bases are saturated it's not such a big deal and most energy is saved to use scans. Again after 12 mins, you can spend 90% of your time microing your army, in the worst case scenario you can still call 8 mules at a time if you need so.
Zergs on the other hand, you never can stop the injects even in a 30 min game, you till have that task distracts you from microing you army or reacting to your opponent's moves in time, every 29 seconds you need to use camera location select queens and inject, and if you miss even just a a couple of injects it can mean the loss of a game you should have won. It makes longer games harder to play for Z than for the other races imho : you really need more stamina.
I do not agree either with the perma inject that was tested in beta. But it would be nice to have a way to ease the multitask for Zergs in the late game
|
On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game.
Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER!
Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved.
|
On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved.
It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back.
|
Injecting every 15 seconds or so while creep spreading while maintaing healthy unit/drone count while trying to control the map and attack in multiple places while trying to keep your army from melting in 3 seconds. Yeah #Zerg
|
we dont have banelings. mariones melt in 1 sec;)
|
its a reason 80% of the high placement in foreeginer scene is zerg;)
|
On October 01 2016 09:02 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 08:19 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I can just speak for myself as a terran. If zerg gets auto inject i would be really disappointed (mid master).
T and P have to focus on placing many buildings correctly, walling off at certain stages of the game, etc.
If z had autoinject what would be left? spreading creep building units appart form microing?
I think they should work on different fronts here.
... There is something though and it's especially obvious when you play random : Protoss just need to select the building you want CB on, it's important in early mid game, but not so much in late game (remember in HotS/WoL when all Nexi were full energy in late game?) so after 12 mins you just need to not miss your warp-in cycles and you're free to focus on your army micro Terran has to be spot on on mules, but once 3 bases are saturated it's not such a big deal and most energy is saved to use scans. Again after 12 mins, you can spend 90% of your time microing your army, in the worst case scenario you can still call 8 mules at a time if you need so. Zergs on the other hand, you never can stop the injects even in a 30 min game, you till have that task distracts you from microing you army or reacting to your opponent's moves in time, every 29 seconds you need to use camera location select queens and inject, and if you miss even just a a couple of injects it can mean the loss of a game you should have won. It makes longer games harder to play for Z than for the other races imho : you really need more stamina. I do not agree either with the perma inject that was tested in beta. But it would be nice to have a way to ease the multitask for Zergs in the late game
It's not really that bad though. You only need a ton of larva if you are relying on tier 2 units the whole game. Once you get to the late game, you have enough hatcheries from the expansions you've taken to produce a decent amount of larva without spot on injects. And in the late game for the most part you are creating units that are cheap on larva: Ultra, queen, viper, infestor, corrupter, broodlord.
Zerg might have to always focus on hitting injects until after the mid game, but when it comes to infrastructure, they barely have to worry. Whereas Protoss and even more so terran has to plan the exact amount of production buildings to get for every time they get another base before 5 bases. I think the game is fair as is.
|
On October 01 2016 09:10 Nerchio wrote:
Injecting every 15 seconds or so while creep spreading while maintaing healthy unit/drone count while trying to control the map and attack in multiple places while trying to keep your army from melting in 3 seconds. Yeah #Zerg
Well Nerchio you should make a long message on twitter because scrubs dont get that.
Dont get me wrong im a scrub to in masters but its pretty obivous for me.
|
On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back.
It's okay, I am watching Worlds right now, while queuing up an ARAM game.
Now he can suffer with the problems and be an apologist for Blizzard's mistakes.
On October 01 2016 08:28 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. wtf does league of legends have to do with anything, it's a completely different game genre. there is no economic harassment in lol because there is no economy.
League regularly releases game design blogs and is played by more people than anything else, so it relates to the game design.
I remember when I used to think SC2 was better too.
|
On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back.
HA! Yea right...
I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life.
Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail.
|
On October 01 2016 08:51 Zedd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 08:29 ShamanElemental1 wrote:On October 01 2016 08:14 MiCroLiFe wrote:
defending was always harder then attacking ? when attacking you have to be at more places at once than deffending. i dont se youre logic shamanelemtal1
The agressor always has the advantage its one of the first rules of real time strategy. You are deying that the sky is blue. There is a reason people attack from more anggles to dissrupt the opponent. Search on google. I dont get it. In SC2, I have heard many times of defenders advantage, but never heard of attackers advantage.
Depends on the unit composition and what matchup we're talking about. Defending is usually harder unless you're playing a race where your supply buildings can shoot and you can warp units instantly.
In ZvZ lingbane aggression is always easier for the attacker, you would simply click banes to the opponents mineral line and then just micro your lings while defender has to snipe those banes while zoning your lings with his own banes.
In TvZ if you let zerg ling flood you you are in big trouble you have to do so many actions to recover
In ZvT drops in general requires attention but shutting them down is harder, you always have to send right amount of units everywhere to not lose frontal engagement.
In ZvP and TvP Adept is the most profitable and easiest form of harrass in lotv with low risk/required action and high value(game ending mostly). Defender must play perfectly in order to shut this down and while attacker just spam adepts and shade them to mineral line. And there is also the warp prism...
|
ZERG HARDEST RACE CONFIRMED
I actually switched from terran to zerg because terran was too hard for me back in the day
|
On October 01 2016 09:21 Exquisite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back. HA! Yea right... I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life. Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail.
You're right Exquisite, you didn't push me away from the game, Blizzard did. And Blizzard didn't ruin my life, they just ruined their own game.
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
Many problems have been around since WOL and HOTS that haven't been addressed. Simply forgetting about them and praising Blizzard doesn't solve them. At least I am trying to keep them relevant. The game has been going in circles balance and game design wise, while games like League are going clearly forward,
But you have 11 posts, so my guess is you'll be here until Blizzard does something you don't like, then you'll disappear. But I love SC2 so much, I'll still be here, still be trying to change the direction. So the river isn't for you, it is for SC2.
|
well i guess after this feedback, there will be 90% zerg in foreginer top placement's rather than 70-80 ;(
|
On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:21 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back. HA! Yea right... I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life. Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail. You're right Exquisite, you didn't push me away from the game, Blizzard did. And Blizzard didn't ruin my life, they just ruined their own game. The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League. Many problems have been around since WOL and HOTS that haven't been addressed. Simply forgetting about them and praising Blizzard doesn't solve them. At least I am trying to keep them relevant. The game has been going in circles balance and game design wise, while games like League are going clearly forward, But you have 11 posts, so my guess is you'll be here until Blizzard does something you don't like, then you'll disappear. But I love SC2 so much, I'll still be here, still be trying to change the direction. So the river isn't for you, it is for SC2.
No its bleeding users because RTS has the highest skill curve of any genre. EVER! People want to play this less and less because it takes an insane amount of focus in each game and it takes weeks if not months just to learn the basics. SC2 is difficult at the casual level. Most gamers in general are casual and want a game that is easy to jump into at any level. And LOL is easy to play as a casual gamer OR as a competitive gamer. And theres nothing wrong with that.
What I do have problem with, is people like yourself who say this:
"I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game."
and generally just give a bad name to the community by being negative about everything. As if David Kim and Blizzard aren't trying. They post updates about every other week to stay transparent. You should be grateful that they are always listening and less negative. You come off as entitled.
And how my 11 posts allows you to conclude my commitment to ANYTHING is beyond me. I've played Blizz games all my life and theres a reason for that... they make good games, just like SC2. So yes I'll praise them for trying because I know they care and that being negative isn't going to make a difference. And NO I'm not just gonna disappear, I would expect that from the likes of you.
|
"I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game."
This +1
Having a developer that either plays the game at a high level (I just cant bring myself to think this about DK he always seems so out of touch with the state of the game) or at least a developer that has a clear and concise vision for the games longevity (I think we all know DK is just scrambling about) is what this game needs, and David Kim is neither.
Although I confess, buffing banelings after Centrifugal Hooks is a MUCH better change and the Larvae nerf has made Zerg almost impossible to play cleanly, theres just flat out too much shit to do. Yea I know APM is no indicator of skill but I do think it's a bit hilarious that every Protoss player I play against almost never has APM over 140 and almost every Terran and Zerg player has a similar 200 + APM, the mechanical requirements are just ridiculous at this point.
|
Zerg Perspective:
Tempest Nerf: YES -- Felt a bit overpowered in ZvP on certain maps.
Baneling Nerf: NO -- ZvZ early game is fine to me.
Cyclone Change: Needs testing.
Raven Change: NO -- ZvT seems fine.
Own Idea: make the locusts of the swarm hosts a bit faster so it can be even to baneling drops and runbys as a harassment option.
General good Idea is to open up as many options as possible for all three races.
|
Yeah Exquisite, um I tend to not waste too much energy on BronzeKnee and Avilo, and their ilk. They usually don't provide any actual feedback/criticism. Most of their posts are either incredibly biased or blatant bashing.
Onto the larvae autoinject, someone made a good post that for Terran and Protoss, their respective task (ie. mules/chrono) is only necessary to maintain during the early game and into the midgame. However, zerg must maintain injects throughout the entire game. That is quite true, and does give zerg a disadvantage in the late game where your attention is spread out incredibly thin. But if we remove the task of injects, zerg might be too easy to play because they will have less things to do.
I can't think of a viable solution, but it does seem unfair that T and P can neglect mules/chrono but zerg must always inject.
|
On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun.
the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out
people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened.
Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death.
In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
|
To be honest it's quite annoying to read all the mocking comments in every community feedback. Yeah I got it blizzard is late, slow mind, and you 're you're brilliant, you saw everything 4-6-10 years ago.
Seriously just focus on the present guys.
I'm looking forward to 2017. Would be great if they slowly remove macro boost like they did in beta, given now that they should have enough time to rebalance units around the the game without macro boost.
|
On October 01 2016 11:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun. the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened. Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death. In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
I've heard the same excuse about 'RTS dying' for so many years. And yet, SC2 was going strong up untill LOTV. Apparently, the RTS genre started dying even harder a few months after LOTV's release. Strange, isn't it? Must be the new DOTA 2 hero announced recently or whatever new feature LOL released.
|
On October 01 2016 11:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League.
yes, its losing players to other genres which were not technically possible when the RTS genre was born. so SC2 is losing players to League and Overwatch. I'm playing more Overwatch than ever. In 2001 when i played SC64 on my N64 Overwatch was technically impossible. Had Overwatch been possible I'd probably have played that because playing with 11 other humans involved in intense combat is more fun. the RTS genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze game genre was in in 1984. its losing its player base to other genres that exist due to advances in tech that were better than anything available in 1981 when Pacman came out people quit Pacman for Pole Position, Lode Runner, and QBert. It didn't matter that Ms. Pacman and LadyBug were 10,000 times better than Pacman. Consumers got so many new choices the entire genre which impacted culture more deeply than anything up to that point was swept away like it never even happened. Pacman made $7 billion in revenue in today's dollars and dwarfed anything any RTS game ever did. And it died a hard and fast ugly death. In relative terms, Blizzard is doing a phenomenal job holding onto its player base.
Maybe RTS has failed to evolve the way other genres have, but comparing to to Pacman is pretty silly. The "dot-eating-mave" genre has pretty limited potential, RTS is much more general and can be so much more. And no, that doesn't mean we should MOBA-ize RTS games, Guardians of Atlas tried to do that and it died less than a month after release. RTS is not a genre of a bygone era, it's just a genre that's become more niche as more options have become available.
|
VR is going to take away from all kinds of older genres. its happening right now. and there is fuck all game companies can do about their existing game franchises and revenue formulas getting annihilated by the shifting sand underneath their feet that is consumer tastes in the face of new emerging tech.
On October 01 2016 11:57 ihatevideogames wrote:
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
the RTS genre and its fundamentals were born in 1995. in 1995, 12 player low latency intense combat games were a rare occurance due to the low proliferation of broadband in 1995. in 1995 2 player low latency games were possible though. Now, broadband is everywhere and 12 player games are an easy thing for consumers.
Team Fortress and MOBAs did not take off until after 2004.. 2005 when broadband became common.
As broadband became more common games like Team Fortress and MOBAs grew in popularity because it was technically possible.
New tech creates new genres every decade.
|
On October 01 2016 12:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:VR is going to take away from all kinds of older genres. its happening right now. and there is fuck all game companies can do about their existing game franchises and revenue formulas getting annihilated by the shifting sand underneath their feet that is consumer tastes in the face of new emerging tech. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 11:57 ihatevideogames wrote:
Pretty sure Team Fortress existed in the early 2000s, so OverWatch was definitely technically possible.
the RTS genre and its fundamentals were born in 1995. in 1995, 12 player low latency intense combat games were a rare occurance due to the low proliferation of broadband in 1995. in 1995 2 player low latency games were possible though. Now, broadband is everywhere and 12 player games are an easy thing for consumers. Team Fortress and MOBAs did not take off until after 2004.. 2005 when broadband became common. As broadband became more common games like Team Fortress and MOBAs grew in popularity because it was technically possible. New tech creates new genres every decade.
Well, you said OverWatch would be impossible in 2001, which is definitely not true, as it's spiritual grandfather already existed and multiplayer games with alot of players, even MMOs, already existed. Battlefield 1942 was 2002 and that had 64 players in a server.
Also, multiplayer games were quite popular in countries where internet cafes were common even way before 2004. And even at home, it was still possible to play some MMOs and multiplayer games. I clearly remember playing Lineage 2 in 2004 on 128kbps ISDN.
Anyway, this is not about broadband and online team games.
The RTS genre has been dying for years, yet SC2 didn't have such a massive exodus of players since the Broodfestor era.
People need to start admitting that LOTV itself is the problem, not the RTS genre dying. It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of annoyance. LOTV is more annoying to play than SC2 has ever been. At least DK is starting to see this, as he mentions it in this PR statement.
|
On October 01 2016 13:09 ihatevideogames wrote:
it was still possible to play some MMOs and multiplayer games. I clearly remember playing Lineage 2 in 2004 on 128kbps ISDN.
and 2004 is not 1995. when the 2 player competitive RTS genre was born in the 90s 12 player team games were not possible. Consumers only choice in 1995 was 2 player or MAYBE 4. and RTS games before 1994 relied on all kinds of unusual connection methods or people just played single player.
1994 did not have the same level of connectivity and speed the common consumer now has in 2016. from 1994 we've seen a gradual improvement in internet speed and latency for the common consumer. As the improvements have occurred new game genres not possible in 1994 have emerged.
there is nothing game companies can due about consumers changing their tastes when given new choices due to new tech. that has been the case for 40 years. its not changing for Starcraft.
EDIT: i miscalculated the inflation with Pacman. Pacman grossed $12.8 Billion.
|
Over time macro mechanics for protoss and terran get easier. While it is appreciated that larva can be injected multiple times simultaneously, that does not un-spill the milk. If you miss injections you miss your macro and fall behind. Catching up later isn't as valuable as not getting behind in the first place.
I just won a very even ZvZ because I stopped to inject mid fight. The fight could have decided the game but I correctly guessed he had fired all his biles and I had time. A minute down the line I had a larger army and my opponent had a larger bank. Sure he could queue up some injects but that doesn't do him a fat lot of good when he's lost his army, and then his fourth, and is getting insurmountably behind.
Compare this to Terran. In the early game scans and mules are extremely valuable. As the game goes on, potential mule energy is expected to be spent on scans. By default if a Terran misses some mules they don't die.
Compare this to Protoss. Chronoboost can be used intelligently with minimal alteration until the right time. It isn't something that needs changed every 30 seconds. It's devastating if your build relies on something to be chronoboosted at a specific time and you forget. But there are very few times where I have seen P repeatedly swap what is being chrono'd as often as a larva inject.
So the complaint I think is pretty well founded. Zerg needs to spread creep which is mechanically intensive. Zerg needs to inject larva which is mechanically intensive. And missing either of the two, despite pooling queen energy, doesn't un-spill that milk.
What should be done about it is well above my pay grade and I have no strong opinions about any of the suggestions. I'm not particularly keen on auto inject but I wouldn't be outraged if it was added. Equally so, if nothing was changed I wouldn't be upset. However I do think that it's a very, very accurate statement to say that Zerg has the hardest macro mechanics, and the most punishing if done poorly.
|
The designers/balance devs are clueless, it's obvious they don't play their own game or pay attention to it or just don't know the game well enough.
Auto-turret is OP? But swarmhost not even mentioned and they buffed swarmhosts back to pre-nerf idiocy.
No mech-anti air, still after 4+ yrs. They actually removed mech anti-air on the test map via the cyclone changes.
And hmmm...no 8 armor ultra fixes, no invincible nydus worms, nothing about reaper coinflip TvT, nothing concrete about nerfing adepts (which are ridiculously OP).
On top of this...talking of destroying the game again in one patch via automatic larva inject.
I think a lot of people will honestly quit SC2 if auto larva inject is put into this game again. Did they not learn the first time they tried that? It made Zerg almost freewin status during LOTV beta.
Disappointed as usual. No concrete balance/number changes, just the usual "hey we might do something, maybe, next week."
At this point i honestly expected they'd already have changes ready to put on the test mod to be implemented and tested. Just more stalling as usual -_-
p.s. Post queen-range buff Zerg is the easiest race in SC2 - not the hardest. Basically every single Zerg player on ladder now benefits from the fitzyhere style for free.
|
I just had a crazy idea....
What if Hatchery's could have the ability to spreed creep anywhere on the map as long as you have creep there.... and the creep would be way harder to clean up like Hots creep.
This way queens have more energy and its easier to keep them at home closer and easier to inject....
Or another simpler idea would be to buff the natural spawn of larva... that way injects would not be a must do all the time...
|
Most of this looks pretty good, except for the auto inject thing. Not that jerg isn't hard, but it's just a nasty inelegant solution imo. I like the current inject compromise.
|
On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless.
Yeah why didn't he get that time machine and go back four years ago, instead of doing it now? So disappointing.
|
I learned the game in blizzard seconds; the blizzard seconds are nice, round and convenient; and the editor is still in blizzard seconds. So I will be using blizzards seconds. but let's see if I can remember the numbers correctly first:
Hatchery:
- produces 1 larva every 15 seconds if there are less than 3 larva at the hatch
this means that each minute, a hatch can naturally produce up to 4 larva
- note that a hatchery cannot hold more than . . . 19 or 23 larva I think is the upper limit? and it will of course produce no larva naturally if it has 3 or more larva already at it.
- to 'bank larva', you must inject to exceed the 3 larva cap. During this time, no larva is produced naturally. 100% of your larva production is from injects if you are banking larva
Inject Larva:
- it is a behaviour applied to hatcheries via targetable spell from a Queen
- it takes 40 seconds to build 25 energy (all units and buildings generate mana at the same rate)
- it takes 40 seconds from the time of casting Inject to spawn extra larva
- chrono boost does cause natural and injected larva to spawn faster if anyone was wondering
- I forget if the Overseer's Contaminate halts the inject behaviour or if it only halts the natural spawning - I believe it halts both
in WoL and HotS:
- if you hit every inject perfectly, you would get 4 larva every 40 seconds that can exceed the 3 limit
- stated differently: on average you would get an additional 6 larva per minute if you had perfect injects
- if you are spending your larva, then perfect injects therefore represents a 150% increase in larva generation per minute (increase from 4 to 10)
- you could not stack injects
in LotV,
- with perfect injects, you get 2 extra larva every 40 seconds. This was part of blizzard's decision to reduce macro boosters in all 3 races during the econ redesign
- stated differently, it is on average 3 extra larva per minute with perfect injects
- if you are spending your larva, then perfect injects represents a 75% increase in larva generation (from 4 to 7)
- stacking injects queues up the behaviour / next spawning cycle but does not compound them or run them concurrently
- in practice, you receive your larva in waves - so hitting or missing your injects is a rather feast or famine mechanic. this burst production had some beneficial interactions with the 3 larva cap mechanic and contributes to zerg's swarm-y identity
- it also takes 40 seconds before a missed inject produces any tangible returns. a missed mule will of course be lost opportunity cost - but in the time frame of the game, it begins to return its first load of big minerals within a few seconds
***
IF the issue at hand is that zerg has to continually bounce back to his/her base every 40 seconds throughout all phases of the game; and that this necessary distraction is disproportionately disruptive to late-game zerg compared to late game protoss or terran, there are a couple of ideas I can throw out for consideration:
1. Hive or infestation pit-level upgrade that changes larva generation behaviours or rates to be close to what perfect queen inject would have done. However, better players could still benefit by also hitting manual queen injects on top of that. For example, if a hatchery could naturally house 9 larva instead of 3 before stopping natural production, hitting injects is less important for banking larva.
2. Change inject from feast or famine. Instead of getting 2 larva 40 seconds later from an inject, give 1 larva every 20 seconds for 40 seconds. Perhaps stacking injects would generate multiple larva every 20 seconds so that banked energy can 'stack' like mules
3. Keep it mostly the same as now, but inject is 50 energy for 2 larva every 40 seconds, but the inject buff lasts 80 seconds. This would mean bouncing back to base half as often but more than an auto-mated inject would have. You would have to have queens spawn with 50 energy however, if you wanted them to be able to inject immediately upon birth. But this would have the side effect of also giving them 2 creep tumours on spawn or a transfuse on spawn. Those things may or may not be bad.
4. A combination of 2 and 3; where inject is 50 mana, lasts for 80 seconds and gives 4 larva (1 every 20 seconds) and is stackable.
|
I really like the way this is going but I'm a bit worried about lowering baneling health though. I understand the reason and I'm all for it in ZvZ but it would make banelings without speed even more shit, especially against terran. Marines can slaughter(focus fire) slow banelings even on creep, this would make that easier. Banelings are already totally useless without speed if not for all ins or worker line harass, this change would make T timings or harass even harder to stop if Z doesn't go for roach tech.
|
Yes please automated macro boosters like we had once in LotV beta. all 3 races can finally focus more on fights & tactic play and not on that stupid brainless endless circle macro boosters. And remove the stackable injects for that.
I will never understand why we spend the most time with macro boosters than everything else in every game.
|
God i hate these Community updates by now, would rather see an in depth discussion focused on 1 topic every other month.
For example he brings up the auto inject, cause zerg apparently requires "many more actions".
He never tells the audience why Koreans bring this up every meeting. What "actions" are we talking about, is this a problem occurring vs a specific race, why do koreans think this is the case. Then he presents the "solution" (again) inject could be automated (tested 1 year ago) ... he did back off the last time.
I really want to know what Dkim as the lead game designer of starcraft thinks here, NOT the community or some pro gamer. (this is all we get every time)
early 2015 + Show Spoiler +Macro mechanics
We’ve recently seen significant amounts of passionate and well-articulated discussions on the topic of macro mechanics. There are numerous people on both sides of our proposed changes, and we’ve read through and listened to many of the arguments as to why people feel the way they do. Having considered our testing internally along with your opinions in the community, we are currently planning to begin testing these changes in the next balance update. This does not mean the changes are permanent, but that we would like to explore their effects on a larger scale. To help prepare for this, we also wanted to briefly discuss some additional gameplay observations that we’ve discovered while testing.
Terran Mules being Removed
Scanner Sweep use is much more common, but because there are so many possible scans available, Calldown: Extra Supplies now has tactical justification. The decision to cast one ability or the other has become rather dynamic, and the constant decisions between these two abilities seem interesting.
The balance on these abilities might not be there yet, and if Mules do in fact get removed, we may need to tune these abilities’ details.
Protoss Chronoboost being Removed
The removal itself seems good, but we’re definitely realizing that there may need to be some timing changes to help Protoss.
We will be decreasing Warp Gate research time, and also speeding up the Disruptor build time, but we believe there’s more to come if this change goes through. Our current thought is that if Chronoboost is removed, we will need to strategically locate the specific units, buildings, upgrade times that would need to be reduced .
Zerg Inject Larva Being Auto-Cast and Reduced to 2 per Inject
We were initially worried that this particular change would take away too much from Zerg macro, but surprisingly, it is feeling like there’s still so much macro to tackle.
With this change, we’re also seeing better creep spread. This is something that we may need to tune eventually. Nevertheless, having a more visible result from players’ macro looks to be a much cooler direction rather than just having the forced/needed clicks found in things like Inject Larva.
Overall, we expect there will need to be a lot of balance tuning required if the macro mechanics changes stick. We are definitely looking forward to hearing your feedback and observing how the changes play out in the beta. Also, please remember to keep an open mind when testing out these changes - it will take time to iron out the balance as we continue testing this area.
Thanks for all of the passionate feedback and discussions these last few weeks. We hope that you will continue to have such rich discussions while we test these rather unique changes as we are certainly eager to hear your thoughts after playing with them.
late 2015 kinda talks about inject + Show Spoiler +Spawn Larvae — This requires too much management; even pro players are unable to manage Spawn Larvae perfectly.
Our stance on this kind of issue is simple: We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day. Spawn Larvae is more difficult to manage than Chrono Boost or MULEs, but zerg has other advantages — for example, unit production is relatively easy to manage for zerg compared with the other races. Making side-by-side comparisons of isolated elements won’t show you the whole picture because StarCraft II is asymmetrically balanced, meaning that if a race is strong in one way, then it’s probably also weak where another race is strong.
We also like to see this kind of feedback, because making games easy to learn but difficult to master is one of Blizzard’s core game design philosophies. So, we don’t see it as a problem that, even at the pro level, perfect mastery hasn’t been achieved yet.
I really want to know what Dkim as the lead game designer of starcraft thinks here, NOT the community or some pro gamer. (this is all we get every time)
Present us a rundown why blizzard introduced macro mechanics initially, did these mechanics achieve what he was hoping = why do we need them, what do they add, are these meaningful actions, problems these macro mechanics gave him in the past.
What is so cool about chronoboost/mule/inject dkim?
Maybe other concepts he likes, after all this is supposed to be a major redesign.
So stop scratching the surface ...
TLDR:
1.Community brings up problems
2. I want a lengthy and in depth post by game developer presenting his views on an issue (challenging his own views?!)
3. Now we have something to work with, we can support his view, bring in a new angle, rethink our view
(right now, wow cool that you guys brought it up, give us more feedback ... we listen ... we listen more .. ok we change)
|
I agree that game feels random. I like to play with an idea that emphasis would transfer from ladder to co-op. Develop it, market it, and make it a new Dota
|
Most of the changes seem reasonable. But while i agree that the game should be balanced on high level especially, auto larva inject would break the game for us scrubby master players 
Also buffing the stalker vs light units (marines, widow mines, SCVs, probes, drones, lings, blings, hydras, zealots, oracles, adepts, sentries, HTs, phoenix, reaper, hellion, raven, banshee) would be a massive overkill although thats not a change they are planning to go through with yet. Its never been tested obiously but thats just my impression.
|
I have a good change for protoss
bring back the reaver
|
I have an idea about automated inject method. You can choose between automatic and manual injects. You can inject all 29sec (like now) manually or all 32sec automatically. inject stacks are removed.
I think my idea lead to play the first 5min manually and then automatically. Even automatic injects have one disadvantage: Your queen doesnt have energy for creep tumors (even one) if you forget to disable automatic injects.
|
On October 01 2016 10:14 Exquisite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 09:21 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:09 Solar424 wrote:On October 01 2016 09:07 Exquisite7 wrote:On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. Oh no poor you! You had to SUFFER! Cry me a river and go play LOL then. Problem solved. It's this type of post that killed this game. Telling people to go play other games instead of actually wanting Blizzard to fix the game's glaring problems. And what do you know, a whole lot of people did leave, and they aren't coming back. HA! Yea right... I'm responsible for pushing away the person who already hates the game. The person who only gets on these forums to bash Blizzard for such a shitty game that ruins their life. Okay fine lets say you're right, my comment makes people not want to play. Good! I'm tired of this SC2 community being filled with entitled pricks who complain at everything Blizzard does! I'd rather be part of a community that responds with rejoice when Blizzard announces that they are doing their best EVERY WEEK to improve the game. Whether they succeed or fail. You're right Exquisite, you didn't push me away from the game, Blizzard did. And Blizzard didn't ruin my life, they just ruined their own game. The problem with your comment though, is that it does ignore the game's glaring problems as Solar pointed out. Giving Blizzard a participation trophy is just repulsive to me, because I believe in accountability, and accountability is what could turn SC2 around. Because regardless of how well you think Blizzard is doing, the game is bleeding viewers and players to games like League. Many problems have been around since WOL and HOTS that haven't been addressed. Simply forgetting about them and praising Blizzard doesn't solve them. At least I am trying to keep them relevant. The game has been going in circles balance and game design wise, while games like League are going clearly forward, But you have 11 posts, so my guess is you'll be here until Blizzard does something you don't like, then you'll disappear. But I love SC2 so much, I'll still be here, still be trying to change the direction. So the river isn't for you, it is for SC2. No its bleeding users because RTS has the highest skill curve of any genre. EVER! People want to play this less and less because it takes an insane amount of focus in each game and it takes weeks if not months just to learn the basics. SC2 is difficult at the casual level. Most gamers in general are casual and want a game that is easy to jump into at any level. And LOL is easy to play as a casual gamer OR as a competitive gamer. And theres nothing wrong with that. What I do have problem with, is people like yourself who say this: "I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game." and generally just give a bad name to the community by being negative about everything. As if David Kim and Blizzard aren't trying. They post updates about every other week to stay transparent. You should be grateful that they are always listening and less negative. You come off as entitled. And how my 11 posts allows you to conclude my commitment to ANYTHING is beyond me. I've played Blizz games all my life and theres a reason for that... they make good games, just like SC2. So yes I'll praise them for trying because I know they care and that being negative isn't going to make a difference. And NO I'm not just gonna disappear, I would expect that from the likes of you.
Don't mind BronzeKnee. I have never seen him post on TL without bashing DK and puke all over the game. He's obviously a troll.
I don't understand why people rage over suggestions to the BALANCE TESTING-feature. It's far from finished I believe and we have a long time until that version of SC2 will be the real game. Have all of you played it enough and on a high enough level to rage about the state of it?
For me I can't say shit about it cause everytime I play it I face Terrans. It seems that the mech-terrans are the only ones populating that part of the galaxy. It looks fucking ridiculously strong. But I guess I have to adjust cause I'm just a diamond scrub Zerg. Chill!
Thanks Blizzard for trying your best and enduring this toxic community climate! It's disgusting and bashers should be ashamed.
I love SC2!!
|
Just don't make any race easier please. All the races are hard to play, each has it's own difficulties and that is what makes the races unique and made us choose a certain race over the others.
I chose zerg because the macro is challenging. Yes, injecting, spreading creep, balancing your larva between armies and drones etc. is hard, but it is also very rewarding when it all comes together. The micro on the other hand is more simple compared to the other races (ling/bling wars being the exception) since it's more about flanking than small micro manoveurs. That's what I like and it feels good, since the macro is hard enough and you still have to inject during fights. Now if you make the macro easier and for example automate injects, zerg loses a big part of it's indentity and it won't feel as rewarding to crush down on an opponent with a huge army from multiple sides.
|
remove macro mechanics and give every race an MSC so the warcrafts can finally play their favorite game with new graphics
|
Every new CFU can be put into 2 categories:
1. Talks about changes to the client/bnet/technic
Oh god yes, that sounds good.
2. Talks about the balance and design
PLEASE NO PLEASE NO PLEASE NO.
On October 01 2016 18:36 Ej_ wrote:
remove macro mechanics and give every race an MSC so the warcrafts can finally play their favorite game with new graphics
I am a warcrafter and I dont know any other warcrafter who would like this for SC II.
The game too hard? Come on... is this a joke?
|
Yes the game is too hard to CONTROL. Ever watched formula 1 on watery distance? Random as hell and nobody (the drivers, viewers may like to watch it) likes it because you don't have "enough" control to drive like you are used on dry distance. Same you can say about progamers because 90% of all have other RTS games experience.
playing is not hard but controlling is far too hard.
|
Why was Schumacher labeled as a rain god, or Senna, Alesi, did you watch Hamilton in silverstone/monaco this year?
F1's Greatest Lap?
www.youtube.com
"I felt my ridiculous race by myselft. Everybody passed me easily right and left, and at the braking and cornering. Since that day, I imposed myself to beat my weakness. Once raining, I took my machine outside and continued to practice and practice for many hours in parking space near my house. Unless I was satisfied with my drive how I ran the kart, I could not help running. The rain soaked my body and paralyzed my hands on the steering wheel. But as long as I was not able to overcome its situation I had to run, run, and run." - Ayrton Senna
|
Not to mention that the cars are often named as "far to easy to drive" and the rules of 2017 are specially made to make the driving harder again...
|
On October 01 2016 19:32 Clonester wrote:
Not to mention that the cars are often named as "far to easy to drive" and the rules of 2017 are specially made to make the driving harder again...
there is a difference between driving and overtaking. If anything happened, overtaking got harder every year. Is nothing new if you can not overtake someone then you get the feeling that driving is too easy because everyone is "just" only driving.
edit: you need control in order to overtake someone!
|
|
|
Austria24417 Posts
I'd love to just go back to the old macro mechanics. They were good.
|
On October 01 2016 21:03 Olli wrote:
I'd love to just go back to the old macro mechanics. They were good.
MULE definitely feels much healthier now, I think the inject is fine too.
|
Austria24417 Posts
On October 01 2016 21:09 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 21:03 Olli wrote:
I'd love to just go back to the old macro mechanics. They were good. MULE definitely feels much healthier now, I think the inject is fine too.
I never felt that macro mechanics were an issue in the first place. Maybe that's just me though.
Harassment being too strong is the biggest thing. They will eventually need to rework adepts or make them insanely weak. They're dominating every protoss matchup atm.
|
The year is 2016, Adepts are still broken and Blizzards solution is further buffing Protoss. David Kim never ceases to amaze.
|
What about mech viability against mass air?
there is ZERO anti air being adressed in this patch, if you make siege tanks and slowpush the enemy will have air before you can cross the map, then you will everytime go into lategame where mass air carrier/broodlord become a huge issue
we need to adress parasitic bomb vs vikings, and thor vs carrier/tempest, the new tempest ability and damage buff (from 30 to 35 anti ground) compounds the issues with air allready and make no sense!
|
On October 01 2016 22:51 Drigger wrote:
The year is 2016, Adepts are still broken and Blizzards solution is further buffing Protoss. David Kim never ceases to amaze.
Maybe he already planned a nerf to adepts but he is looking for service in return.
|
People hold Blizzard to such an unreasonable standard with game balance and design, if you held companies like Riot to the same standard it wouldn't even be close.
|
for fucks sake dont further buff protoss aoe, its ridiculous!
|
Confusing, lacks of direction. Really hard to remain faithful nowadays. Why can't they set clear goals and try to achieve them, rather than messing around with literally every number ?
|
Is this a joke? Are they even serious anymore?
|
They need to say on who they want to balance around.
Its the only way to make everyone shut up.
If they say Koreans, people will know that their problems are irrlevant and viceversa.
Trying to please everyone is not working at all.
|
Personally I love the current cyclone and would hate to see the new version applied
|
Once again Blizzard fails to understand the difference between "too hard to play," and "too complex to play." For some reason they feel the need to make the game super complex.
The problem I think on the pro-level is that consistent play doesn't equal consistent results, which has to be really frustrating.
|
Yep the real problem is not that the game is "too difficult to master", but sometimes he "seems too random" (mines, adepts shadows in opponent army... ) even for top-tier players who should nearly knows exactly the result before the action.
|
I am only a gold-Protoss, but I think, you can't nerf Adepts. Just think of PvZ. I feel like I have to pressure the Zerg very early so that his economy can't get out of control and so that he can't switch directly into Mutas. Oracles feel kind of useless nowadays. If I build a stargate, Terrans and Zerg just overrun me with their ground army. At least that happens to me. So I always build robo + twilight.
|
I might be wrong but I feel like every problems SC2 ever had comes from the fact that the battles last 3 sec. Especially for Zerg late game : I have a hard time watching my army while jumping my camera everywhere to inject and I can't recover from a bad engagement ever, since everything just melt in no time.
I Feel like auto inject is too easy and boring, but adding 3 to 5 camera jump to do it is too much of a pain if I can lose my army instantly to big AoE. Maybe If we could inject manually and efficiently from the minimap, or if you still needed to cast it but then the queen was just moving and injecting the closest hatch... wouldnt that help the pros?
Or you know... boost the hp of every single units in the game so that they dont just disappear after 3 sec could fix it. Battles would be more fun to watch too.
|
On October 02 2016 02:14 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
They need to say on who they want to balance around.
Its the only way to make everyone shut up.
If they say Koreans, people will know that their problems are irrlevant and viceversa.
Trying to please everyone is not working at all.
They said many time that they will listen to both.
But recent feedbacks didn't really prove that.
|
This community upgrade broke my heart..I thought they were on the right track, but not. As someone said, the aleatory of the game is the worst thing, and we still have a lot of units OP and UP. Address that, and forget "racial balance" for a bit.
|
On October 01 2016 22:51 Drigger wrote:
The year is 2016, Adepts are still broken and Blizzards solution is further buffing Protoss. David Kim never ceases to amaze.
I fucking hate protoss, but if you buff hydras, banes, infestors, tanks, cyclones and a lot other stuff you kinda have to give them something so they don't just roll over and die (specially if a nerf to adepts its being considered)
|
On October 02 2016 06:36 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Once again Blizzard fails to understand the difference between "too hard to play," and "too complex to play." For some reason they feel the need to make the game super complex.
The problem I think on the pro-level is that consistent play doesn't equal consistent results, which has to be really frustrating.
I dont think blizzard knows what consistent means. They like the game to have a dice involved.
|
pro LotV feels like two Chinese playing table tennis. Both are really good, something goes back and forth and one wins in a second.
|
On October 01 2016 07:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 01 2016 07:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
I never cease to enjoy watching the train wreck that is David Kim trying to balance this game.
Where is the Ultra armor change? Why is Terran still so dependent on the Liberator in the late game?
I've literally been saying for years as we go round, yet again, the harass merry go-round that Blizzard needs to get off it. They buff harass tools so that everyone uses them because they are so strong you'd be stupid not to, then then buff defensive options so you can stop them (see Photon Overcharge) so then Blizzard creates new harass tools that can work around the defenses, because no harassed anymore because the defenses work.
It is ridiculous. The game was much better off when the defender had the tools, but had to scout and makes reads in order to stop the incoming attack. Spore Crawlers without a Evo Chamber is what you get when you don't know what you are doing. the post literally states that they are trying to nerf harass options in the upcoming patch Only four years late. David Kim is clueless. Ya know what game is working well, both for people to play and as an E-Sport? League of Legends. And it isn't insanely difficult to master, yet only a small percentage of people can play at the top level. Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 07:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
is he balancing the game or is he instigating a giant change/shift during the off season to prepare for another competitive season in 2017? He is doing what he always does, destroying the player base by ignoring the basic tenets of game design. He is the reason we had to suffer through hours long Swarm Host matches, such a poorly designed unit that violated so much of what we know about game design. Thinking he can solve the problems he created is ignorant at this point, look at the track record. Let's all remember how the Tempest was going to be a solution to Mutalisks, then realize how it has become a boring A-move monster of the late game. User was warned for this post
Why don't you go play LoL instead of continually complaining about sc2?
|
On October 01 2016 09:17 ShamanElemental1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 09:10 Nerchio wrote:
Injecting every 15 seconds or so while creep spreading while maintaing healthy unit/drone count while trying to control the map and attack in multiple places while trying to keep your army from melting in 3 seconds. Yeah #Zerg Well Nerchio you should make a long message on twitter because scrubs dont get that. Dont get me wrong im a scrub to in masters but its pretty obivous for me.
I mean all you have to do is play the race once and you will find out. every time I offrace I remember the hard way,even if you can get that "rhythm" down its still hard, but that being said idk about auto injects.
but at this point idk what to do about this game zerg say they have it the hardest but terrans crying about ultras and adepts while toss just points at byun and say STFU. whatever happens, happens ill just enjoy the ride till the end.
|
This kind of post is a huge issue
To Protoss in General
We agree with a lot of your feedback saying the Void Ray change could potentially be a different option for Protoss to tech to, but some people also seem to feel that the Protoss need more tools at their disposal. We would love to hear some specific suggestions on this side, so that we can explore potential new strategic routes that we can test out.
1. I could not find feedback on teamliquid concerning the void ray. Maybe i missed it ...
2. "potentially be a different option for Protoss to tech to"
Yeah i get different strategy's and ways to play a game are good.
Well the tech route is clearly there ... so the unit is not used enough i assume?
- Statistics would help to prove a point (Ladder, pro games)
We can go back in time and ask why the Void ray was designed this exact way. Why we thought it is needed. Do players use the unit the way we intended?
Did we achieve design goals? (what were our goals)
- Is the unit fun? (what makes a unit fun)
- Unit interactions ?
- "easy to learn but hard to master" true ?
- is the ability "Prismatic Alignment" a good solution ( gain +6 damage vs. armored) it was a good solution 4 years ago, maybe we learned something new?
_______
Now we know your actual opinion on the unit as a whole (not some vague statement), its much easier to communicate from here on out.
We know the void ray is not used.
In what way should the vr be used? (a new core unit, fast harass unit ...)
Problems this unit faces, potential issues aka to slow, build time, hit points etc.
"some people also seem to feel that the Protoss need more tools at their disposal"
I believe you can do better ...
The community will provide specific feedback after we know your opinion/standpoint/vision.
I am really missing quality in depth analysis by the developer to guide a discussion.
|
Protoss in General
We agree with a lot of your feedback saying the Void Ray change could potentially be a different option for Protoss to tech to, but some people also seem to feel that the Protoss need more tools at their disposal. We would love to hear some specific suggestions on this side, so that we can explore potential new strategic routes that we can test out.
Some of the ideas here that we’re currently discussing are: Finding ways to potentially buff Disruptors vs. Terran and/or Zerg, or Stalker base damage increased vs. light while keeping the total damage vs. armored the same.
I don't think the composition problem is that other units are inherently bad, it's that adepts are just so good. Vision isn't going to change their non-harassment power either. In TvP there is no need for other units to be viable. The adept/stalker/colo/templar/archon late game is pretty diverse as is. It's not like zerg/terran have a large set of diverse choices for tech against protoss anyway.
|
So for terrans if mech is not getting buff and protoss and zerg are not getting nerf, it means the game is moving in bad direction.
|
I agree with the coaches about the harrassment stuff, everything else they said is laughable at best.
|
So SC2 is officially a hard game.
|
SC2 metas are majorly off:
1. Because zerg, a race with mainly melee units, has and had to play the defensive part in all historical SC2 metas (non all-in) against a race like terran which almost solely consists of ranged units and is being offensive all the time. It would be correct to let the melee unit race be the offensive part in the metagame.
2. Terran has the mule mechanic. This mechanic works by default best out of all three macro mechanics for a defensive meta race as it ensures a minimum amount of income all the time no matter how hard harrass or attacks hitted. On the offensive side mules prevent counter attacks to be efficient and work defensively as well: When zerg decides to counter attack terran during an attack of terran he is always inefficient due to mules, no matter the details. It is most efficient for zerg to focus all units on defence only until he has a clear advantage and can attack and defend at the same time or can afford to lose expansions, tech or economies during his attacks. The race that is offensive all the time (which is terran) however should be very vulnerable to counters & harrass (which is zerg) to create a feeling of balance by design. As one can easily see that is as much off as it can be.
3. Terran bio is too mobile and too strong overall (omnipotent). This enforces the game designers to give other races tools that are op on themselves such as banelings, muta ball, colossi, adapts, pylon cannon, etc. This created the vicious circle of units and mechanics which are too strong and limit the viablity o each race's strategies and off-timings. It ends in e.g. units like corruptors that have in fact way more HP than they should and metagames which are highly disencouraging for players. Fights are rarely balanced but evolve around those op units (e.g. WOL 4 colossi vs zerg game win if not enough corruptors as zerg with too few corruptors cant do anything against colossi at all, game lose if corruptor count is high enough as protoss can't kill them off fast enough and protoss army without colossi is just being defeated). If those bio counters didn't need to be as strong as they are, the counters to those units would not be as strong as they are as well and the counters against the counters as well, and so on.
These vicious circles of hard counters destroy and disable balanced metagames that SC2 needed badly such as they exist in broodwar - which don't put too much emphasize on the interaction and amount at certain point of time of few key units and as a consequence create games which are not decided/predecided that easily and early on and allow more room for creative play. That is the reason koreans go back to broodwar in large numbers I am sure of.
Examples:
Hell, why do we have earlygame overlord drops now?
Because protoss got pylon cannon and zerg could barely put pressure on protoss without them. Why pylon cannon? Cause early game bio aggression at multiple locations was too strong to defend against and mutas later on as well. Why are mutas as strong as they are? Cause they got heal. Why they got heal? Cause of bio aggression being too strong and hard to defeat.
Do that with everything you feel has gone wrong with SC2 and you will always come to the point where it comes down to mainly bio and it's hard counters being the reason: Mech not viable; adapts in the game as op as they are, fenix a bit op, generations of P metagames evolving around colossi count and timings, etc. I don't even know where to start and end.
Are overlord drops that early bad? Yes, cause they contribute to the skipping of game phases & allow all-in play such as that was has been discovered with the queen drops. After all early overlord drops on high level play have turned out to be all-in and are not viable anyway. They now just offer the threat of being executed with barely beeing executed which without the pylon cannon would not be needed as natural threats of units would still exist. It is a useless mechanic that early that should come into game later on actually.
Is pylon cannon bad? Yes, cause it limits viable options extremely without the need of further explanation.
etc.
|
Their main complaint was that StarCraft II is way too difficult to master even for the highest level pros. Initially, we responded that StarCraft II is meant to be the peak challenge of all games, and therefore it is supposed to be nearly impossible to master—even for the best gamers in the world.
This, imo, is a huge problem in mentality. A large part of why SC2 is suffering is because of its inability to attract new gamers when other, friendlier, options exist. And they continue to perpetuate this by only accommodating to the highest denominator; and even then, acknowledge that the game is inaccessible at it's highest potential.
Being the peak challenge means nothing when nobody wants to start playing it because they are intimidated. All of the scenes are having problems because of this. No new blood.
|
I'm really glad they were really digging in and elaborating what aspects of Starcraft is "too difficult". David Kim has regurgitated that statement for quite some time, and I never knew precisely what he -or they- meant. Now maybe we can go somewhere.
|
KR Pro/Coaches Meeting
Last week, we had a chance to meet up with majority of the coaches in Korea as well as some of the pro players. Their main complaint was that StarCraft II is way too difficult to master even for the highest level pros. Initially, we responded that StarCraft II is meant to be the peak challenge of all games, and therefore it is supposed to be nearly impossible to master—even for the best gamers in the world. After we dug into the specifics, however, we found two main topics that we want to bring up with the StarCraft II community.
First, the Korean coaches and players felt that zerg requires many more actions than the other two races to be able to compete. To address this, they suggested that we bring back the automated larva injects that we tested in the beta. That’s a possibility, but bear in mind the buffs to other zerg units we’re exploring in the major redesign patch and zerg’s respectable performance in recent tournaments.
Secondly, they felt that some of the harassment options in Legacy of the Void are either too mobile or too strong. We mostly discussed Adepts, Tankivacs, and Warp Prisms as the key units on this front, however, and we already intend to address all three of these in the major redesign. We don’t have any action items resulting from this feedback, but we feel more confident than ever that we’re on the right track with the changes we currently have planned for the major redesign patch.
Oh god the irony...
I've been ruthlessly downvoted on Reddit so many times for saying that LotV is far too difficult, because harassment is stupidly powerful, requires too much micro to defend, and is far too mobile to the point where 400APM+ cheese builds are god damn mandatory to play the game competitively.
Then the KeSPA pro scene goes out and criticises the game for the exact same things I've complained about. A pro scene consisting mostly of ex-Brood War players that played a game requiring 300APM or more just to macro.
When former Brood War players are complaining that your game is too difficult, you should realise that you fucked up hard, not turn around and say "Well duh, our game is meant to be difficult to master"
The good thing is that Blizzard actually looked into this and identified some of the big issues plaguing their game.
Adepts are far too powerful because they're superior to the Zealot in almost every single way. Why would you use an easily kited melee unit when Adepts are far more powerful in terms of overall mobility, range and in most cases damage.
Tankivacs were the dumbest idea ever, because it was actually safer in almost all cases to drop micro your tanks than to siege and unsiege them, because it takes 5 seconds to siege up when it takes about a one second delay to fire when dropped.
Plus, the sheer damage and mobility potential of the Tankivac combination meant that surprise doom drops were broken as shit, and capable of levelling entire bases.
The thing is, air harassment in general is too powerful in LotV. Medivac Boost makes Terran drops incredibly difficult to intercept without predicting your opponent's drop pattern and having loads of units literally parked in the drop path. Warp Prism ranged pickups on the other hand turn great feats of drop micro into something any schmuck with a keyboard and mouse can do. And the worst part is that the Warp Prism itself is now in the backlines and is often borderline impossible to snipe.
As for Overlords, the decision to remove Ventral Sacs and make it possible to perform Baneling and Roach drop harassment in Hatchery tech is really bad.
Oh, and did I forget the Oracle - a unit that destroys your mineral line to the point where it becomes a build order loss if you don't have Missile Turrets defending them.
Cyclone
There’s been an issue with the Cyclone’s weapon where its actual damage output was lower than its tooltip indicated. However, this lower damage output has been the value we have been intending to test against. We are adjusting the Cyclone weapon’s attack period and attack delays so that its damage output and tooltip line up with its intended values.
So... they're fixing the tooltip and calling it a day? Wrong answer, Blizzard!
The new Cyclone is a strong representative of Blizzard's crap game design policies.
Rather than redesign the Cyclone to fill a much needed anti-air role that the Thor failed utterly in, the Cyclone is instead focused on being an incredibly expensive yet stupidly powerful anti-armoured unit that borderline outclasses the buffed Siege Tank. Cyclones are basically just as overpowered as the Warhound was in the Heart of the Swarm beta. In fact, the the only ground unit that counters it is the Ultralisk, because it got overbuffed and now has 8 maximum Armour.
This means that without +3 Weapon upgrades, the Cyclone does 0 damage to a maxed out Ultralisk, and 1 damage per shot when the upgrades are in place, or about 14 DPS
Baneling
We’re seeing feedback regarding Baneling health being too high (especially in the early game in ZvZ). If this is the case, we could simply move the health boost to come with Centrifugal Hooks instead of at tier 1. Please let us know if you agree with this direction.
This is the only change I agree with on the list. I'm fine with buffing Banelings, but not to the point where your only hope of holding a Ling/Bane all in is to open Factory first and build Siege Tanks before taking your natural expansion.
Raven Auto Turret
We agree with your feedback that the Auto Turret’s damage after the upgrade appears to be too high right now, so we’d like to leave their damage as is, and change the upgrade so that it only further increases the effectiveness of Seeker Missiles. Therefore, the change we’re thinking of here is to remove the damage bonus to Auto Turrets from this upgrade, keep the damage bonus to Seeker Missiles, and also add a longer tracking time to Seeker Missiles through this upgrade. This way, Seeker Missiles will follow their target further before expiring.
Blizzard need to scrap Seeker Missiles. They're 50 Energy more expensive than Fungal Growth and Psionic Storm, and unlike the two other splash damage spells, can be nullified with ease. Seeker Missiles fizzle out too easy to the point where you can only reliably hit slow moving targets like Battlecruisers and Brood Lords with them.
Scrap the spell and replace it with Irradiate, please!
Fast Teching to Tempest
We’re seeing a lot of feedback on the Tempest ability being too strong when players rush their tech directly to Tempests. To combat this, we could potentially add a research for this ability to help slow down the timing in which Disruption Sphere comes into play.
Again, Blizzard are outright ignoring the problem. Nobody's complaining about Disruption Spheres coming out too fast.
Everyone's complaining about the fact that Tempests now have a splash damage zone ability that outperforms Psionic Storm in almost every regard. Disruption Sphere does far too much damage, has no Energy cost, has something silly like an 80% uptime, and has a cast range of 14 which is pretty much an oxymoron when you consider the fact that Blizzard nerfed the attack range of the Tempest because its range was too powerful and was allowing Protoss to win easy late games with Tempest spamming alone.
|
Some suggestions for Protoss.
Colossus Redesign
- Moves 80% more slowly, basically as slow as a Reaver.
- Much slower attack speed.
- Higher damage per shot.
- 12 attack range baseline.
- Extended Thermal Lance removed.
- Is no longer considered an air unit.
The idea of the new Colossus is that it's a very slow siege unit that needs to be drop microed by the Warp Prism to use effectively (a bit like the Brood War Reaver.) Otherwise, it risks being flanked and surrounded by enemy forces and sniped.
On the other hand, anti-air units will still be effective against them, as you'd be sniping the Warp Prism microing it.
Remove Disruptors from the game
This is because the Disruptor performs a redundant role that the Colossus should have performed in the first place had it not been nerfed to crap by Blizzard. Protoss simply doesn't need two splash damage units in Robotics tech.
Adept Nerf:
- Has 50 Life, down from 80.
- Mineral cost reduced to 75, down from 100.
This nerf now brings the Adept to a more acceptable level, where it has 120 effective HP from its combined Life and Shields, instead of the same 150 value that Zealots had.
This means that Adepts should be more of a low cost harassment unit that you build in lieu of Zealots and Stalkers, rather than a core ground unit that outright replaces the Zealot out of how overpowered it is.
Dark Templar Redesign:
- Costs 150 Minerals and 100 Gas to produce, changed from 125 Minerals and 125 Gas.
- Deals 22 damage per hit, down from 45.
- Temporarily de-cloaks for 3 seconds after attacking.
- Is now a Detector
- Can use Blink (researched from the Twilight Council.)
This overhaul fixes three overall problems with the Dark Templar: its ability to outright end games when the opponent lacks detection, its lack of mobility, and the lack of Detectors in Twilight Council tech.
The new DT has the same Blink ability as the Stalker (and not the separate ability that works like a crappier version of Blink), meaning that it can be used to bypass cliffs or escape enemies. Which it now needs because attacking will temporarily de-cloak you, meaning that you can now actually defend yourself against DTs when you don't have detection.
Immortal Redesign:
- Costs 150 Minerals and 75 Gas.
- Has 120 Life and 40 Shields.
- Retains the Hardened Shields ability, which reduces all damage inflicted on the shields that is greater than 10 to 10.
- Now deals 25 damage per shot. No longer does additional damage to Armored units.
The new Immortal is a return to the old style of Immortal. The difference is that it's less tanky overall (only taking 6 shots for a Siege Tank to kill), loses its additional damage against Armoured units, and performs slightly better against Light units.
Basically, its edge is now in its tankiness, as opposed to its ability to outright hard-counter anything with the Armoured affix.
|
On October 02 2016 22:32 Clbull wrote:
Some suggestions for Protoss.
Colossus Redesign
The idea of the new Colossus is that it's a very slow siege unit that needs to be drop microed by the Warp Prism to use effectively (a bit like the Brood War Reaver.) Otherwise, it risks being flanked and surrounded by enemy forces and sniped.
On the other hand, anti-air units will still be effective against them, as you'd be sniping the Warp Prism microing it.
Remove Disruptors from the game
This is because the Disruptor performs a redundant role that the Colossus should have performed in the first place had it not been nerfed to crap by Blizzard. Protoss simply doesn't need two splash damage units in Robotics tech.
Adept Nerf:
This means that Adepts should be more of a low cost harassment unit that you build in lieu of Zealots and Stalkers, rather than a core ground unit that outright replaces the Zealot out of how overpowered it is.
Disruptors are one of the best designed units in LOTV IMO, dunno why you'd want to get rid of them. They're splendid.
I don't know if nerfing Adept health is a good way to go, the big problem with them is how noncommittal they are and how they can just declare where they want to be pretty unilaterally. Redesigning Shade or just scrapping that abortion of an ability would be the way to go IMO.
|
Conceptually Disruptors are fine, but could use a slight tweak balance-wise, perhaps add unit tracking ala Seeker Missile.
Would love to see Colossus redesigned into a defensive, zone-control type unit, a role which Protoss currently lacks.
I also hope DK uses this opportunity to do a pass-over of the core gateway units and redesign them so they are more balanced vs. each other (i.e. each have more defined roles). I think too much attention is paid to the balance of the match-ups themselves and not b/w units, and parity b/w units will open up unit composition diversity. Things such as increasing Zealot and/or reducing Adept/Stalker HP/Shields to promote Zealots as the "meat shields", increasing Stalker damage to make them fragile ranged sniper units, etc.
|
An autoinjecting toggle feature feels fair to pair with continuous chrono and mule hammering.
I enjoy reading design thoughts from Kim, the end-of-year patch should be wild as a viewer.
|
On October 03 2016 00:32 Coffeeling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2016 22:32 Clbull wrote:
Some suggestions for Protoss.
Colossus Redesign
The idea of the new Colossus is that it's a very slow siege unit that needs to be drop microed by the Warp Prism to use effectively (a bit like the Brood War Reaver.) Otherwise, it risks being flanked and surrounded by enemy forces and sniped.
On the other hand, anti-air units will still be effective against them, as you'd be sniping the Warp Prism microing it.
Remove Disruptors from the game
This is because the Disruptor performs a redundant role that the Colossus should have performed in the first place had it not been nerfed to crap by Blizzard. Protoss simply doesn't need two splash damage units in Robotics tech.
Adept Nerf:
This means that Adepts should be more of a low cost harassment unit that you build in lieu of Zealots and Stalkers, rather than a core ground unit that outright replaces the Zealot out of how overpowered it is.
Disruptors are one of the best designed units in LOTV IMO, dunno why you'd want to get rid of them. They're splendid. I don't know if nerfing Adept health is a good way to go, the big problem with them is how noncommittal they are and how they can just declare where they want to be pretty unilaterally. Redesigning Shade or just scrapping that abortion of an ability would be the way to go IMO.
because most of his points are clearly nerfs but he tried to hide it.
|
"KR Pro/Coaches Meeting
Last week, we had a chance to meet up with majority of the coaches in Korea as well as some of the pro players. Their main complaint was that StarCraft II is way too difficult to master even for the highest level pros. Initially, we responded that StarCraft II is meant to be the peak challenge of all games, and therefore it is supposed to be nearly impossible to master—even for the best gamers in the world. After we dug into the specifics, however, we found two main topics that we want to bring up with the StarCraft II community.
First, the Korean coaches and players felt that zerg requires many more actions than the other two races to be able to compete. To address this, they suggested that we bring back the automated larva injects that we tested in the beta. That’s a possibility, but bear in mind the buffs to other zerg units we’re exploring in the major redesign patch and zerg’s respectable performance in recent tournaments.
Secondly, they felt that some of the harassment options in Legacy of the Void are either too mobile or too strong. We mostly discussed Adepts, Tankivacs, and Warp Prisms as the key units on this front, however, and we already intend to address all three of these in the major redesign. We don’t have any action items resulting from this feedback, but we feel more confident than ever that we’re on the right track with the changes we currently have planned for the major redesign patch. "
DUH. Blizzard, Literally, completely, unequivocally, DUH. Are you (Blizzard) literally, by your own public omission, so completely out of it that it takes a big meeting with a bunch of top korean coaches and players to point out to you what has been brutally obvious to everyone from the very moment you released this expansion??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? how many question marks to put there... maybe one for every time Blizzard says anything about this game that doesn't involve admitting obvious things.
Zerg depends on making workers more than the other races. you buffed Terran and Protoss worker harass. any doofus can figure out that this biases the game against zerg (how many zergs made it to top 8 last Code S?) except the creators of the game?? Terran and Protoss have capability of winning early game against zerg far more than zerg does. Zergs at top levels NEVER try to end the game early because it's basically impossible to do that against terran or protoss, their defense is too strong. Blizzard nerfed Swarmhosts out of the game because they thought players were massing them which was not the intended usage. Well, terrans can mass reaper and win. terrans can mass liberator and win. mass cyclone and win. mass widow mine and win. protoss mass adept and win. mass disruptor and win. etc. etc. zerg has to be able to mass their units, the whole race is built on that because their units are less efficient. so blizzard where's your plan to nerf liberators, so that they get used as often as zerg swarmhosts? how about nerf a protoss air unit so that they get used as often as swarmhosts? NO, why would you do that? liberators make stuff go boom. big explosions, real exciting. imbalanced unit, sure, but TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE, so it's GOOD! swarmhosts, BORING. so must nerf them out of the game. but imba units that do EXCITING things, keep them IN. great logic. Make your game exciting to watch, but terrible to actually play. that will make it successful. Still playing WoL, the version that existed before the Terrible Terrible Damage make stuff go boom get more viewers widow mines and all that followed dominated over game balance. Never admit the truth, Blizzard. everyone knows it, but don't admit it because then, who knows what could happen. maybe players respecting what you say after that, but ... nah who wants that.
Hopefully, Major Redesign will actually mean that. but I'm not going to hold my breath.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
