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On August 30 2016 03:12 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 02:29 AWalker9 wrote:On August 30 2016 02:25 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote:
I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some. Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either. We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones! Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity. Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague) So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments. Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers. I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got.
Just curious, what are you counting as for the Korean tournaments besides 2 SSL, 2 GSL, and Proleague?
I personally don't consider the SSL+GSL cross-finals as a full tournament.
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On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
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On August 30 2016 03:12 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 02:29 AWalker9 wrote:On August 30 2016 02:25 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote:
I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some. Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either. We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones! Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity. Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague) So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments.
Technically you're correct. But don't forget that Koreans are only allowed to go to 7 of these tournaments, while foreigners are allowed to go to all of them, which is simply just discrimination.
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yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
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On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
User was warned for this post
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On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
Impossible to argue with someone who thinks that a handful of Koreans making tons of money in sc2 somehow means that they all are or that punishing every single player from a certain country because of their fellow countryman's success is a good idea.
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France12758 Posts
On August 30 2016 03:40 iamkaokao wrote:
yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
There are not that many better players tho. Even at WoL launch there wasn't that many... There is so little left in Korea that their skill has lowered.
If they injected money into korean sc2 + some KR vs for events it would have been much better.
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On August 30 2016 03:24 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 03:12 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 30 2016 02:29 AWalker9 wrote:On August 30 2016 02:25 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote:
I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some. Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either. We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones! Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity. Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague) So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments. Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers. I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got. Just curious, what are you counting as for the Korean tournaments besides 2 SSL, 2 GSL, and Proleague? I personally don't consider the SSL+GSL cross-finals as a full tournament.
The WCA tournament allows Koreans as does WESG and obviously Blizzcon.
I realize that foreigners are allowed to go to all tournaments, but in practice they do not go to all GSLs, SSLs, proleague, and they're not likely to do as well as the Koreans in WCA or the WESG.
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On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
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On August 29 2016 14:35 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2016 11:41 kaykoose wrote:
I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs I'm guessing it might be a mix of money problems with ESL no longer wanting to run the regular league and/or the IEMs and Dreamhacks wanting a reason to region-lock themselves to draw in more viewers with more non-Korean players..
Which has been a dismal failure, the viewers they brought in have for 85-95% of them been offset by the people who refuse to watch the watered down system. So they're pulling the same numbers for their dreamhacks or slightly improved or in some cases (early rounds and such) worse.
Look at Dreamhack Montreal, when was the peak of the viewership? When two "faceless koreans", TRUE and Polt faced.
And that's not even mentioning the things the circuit championships are replacing, the WCS Premier League season finals, if you take that into account then viewership this year for WCS is WAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down.
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On August 30 2016 03:40 iamkaokao wrote:
yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
WCS didn't kill the scene in Korea. Koreans not caring about SC2 killed the scene in Korea. I don't believe Koreans only had 2 seasons of GSL and SSL and a downsized proleague because Blizzard wanted it, it was because no one watches those events and they don't care about foreign viewership because they aren't advertising to them at all. I can't go out and buy a hot6 or anything like that in America.
Having Koreans flying around the world won't fix their internal problems. It just means all that money is getting thrown into a black hole and doing nothing.
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This thread became a big bashing page to insult foreign pros, honestly I would just lock it..
It's really sad to read this kind of shitposting here on TL..
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On August 30 2016 04:43 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine" if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
like the part where you say it sucks for the viewers is just flat out untrue, it sucks for YOU as a viewer among many others, but plenty of people I know enjoy rooting for their fellow countrymen, It's just a tradeoff really for the viewers and yes it sucks for koreans in Korea but for what it's worth in the poker world plenty of pros get locked out of good games because worse players want to make money off of even worse players than them, it just kind of allows everybody to get a piece of the pie as you guys have been saying
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On August 30 2016 06:05 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 04:43 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine" if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
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On August 30 2016 06:20 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 06:05 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 04:43 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine" if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it? You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
It had its peak during the finals, come on, you can stretch an argument only so far..
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On August 30 2016 06:21 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2016 06:20 showstealer1829 wrote:On August 30 2016 06:05 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 04:43 Incognoto wrote:On August 30 2016 03:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 30 2016 03:28 HugoBallzak wrote:On August 30 2016 01:59 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote:
Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career? nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine" if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it? You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other? It had its peak during the finals, come on, you can stretch an argument only so far..
So? If the point was that noone wants to see Koreans, the finals would have tanked, instead it had the tournaments highest peak. Don't blame me because the numbers don't shift the argument in your favor
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Where do you read that nobody wants to see the Koreans playing, in uThermal interview????
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all I know is I was there and the crowd was cheering a LOT MORE when Scarlett was winning games than anybody else, it was not even close, also they weren't faceless koreans, even True who had pretty limited english tried his very best to talk in english during interviews, Polt has been a fan favorite among foreigners for quite a while now... he's part of the foreigners now much more than he is a faceless korean as you would say
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cheering as an argument wahhahahahhaha
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yours would qualify as laughing, which one wins I wonder, must be 50/50
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EPT
