EPTuThermal sounds off on WCS "If you’re stuck in the Ro32 be…
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RKC
2848 Posts
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ossavi09
Germany441 Posts
On August 29 2016 16:30 RKC wrote: And correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there more Koreans moving to NA/EU and learning English (Polt, Hydra, MC, Violet, MVP, etc) than vice versa? And not all them were in their prime, came from a BW infrastructure, and were assured of winning and making the switch worth the while. Doesn't this clearly reflect the difference in mentalities and motivational levels? going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?). | ||
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JorSharky
11 Posts
I do understand winning do motivate you to become better in some ways, but only competing with the best will push you to improve yourself! Having only one chance to do that in Blizzcon is absolutely ridiculous! And you guys already decided that this one tournament means nothing on it's own! Now I don't mind locking up some tournaments for foreigners only, so you guys could make a decent living and be motivated, but locking up all the foreign tournaments is simply insane! To be totally honest from spectator and viewer point of view the current WCS system is a complete garbage! I am no entertained as much with it compared to previous years, and apparently I am not the only one. You guys have to be honest to yourselves and admit the current system is harmful for the over stacked Korean scene, the game, and the overall quality of entertainment it provides. And only benefit you guys! And I am not saying you are a bunch of no goods lazy players, but if you keep the current system I guarantee you will become that way! Again, I don't mind locking some tournaments but not all of them. The current system sucks big time! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On August 29 2016 16:56 ossavi09 wrote: going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?). we'll probably never see a non-korean world champion. as you said, the money is just not there. i don't think its that big of a deal though. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo. When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1481 Posts
I am unsure how it will impact the popularity of SC2 in the long run, but it is still something that feels "wrong". | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again! -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo. When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community. "2016 Wcs system supporters are literally Trump supporters" Never change TL | ||
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catabowl
United States815 Posts
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again! -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo. When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community. Wow... Way to politicize it... Your world view is dangerous and should be ridiculed till the end of time. See how dumb that sounds when you attack? Focus on the argument/opinion... stupid Liberal... Ha, see, doesn't help the debate. Now, back to the topic at hand. Yes, motivation is a key point in uThermal's argument. If someone goes into something defeated, they are not going to get better. While there are a few exceptions, a majority of the international scenes feel the same way. Blizzcon should be the "World Series" of Tournaments. This I support with the region lock. Growing up in the 2000s, I loved watching WCG in Brood War. The event felt more special (even if the Koreans were 2-0, 3-0 all competition). Something tells me, Blizzard wants that again. If I have seen Parting vs (insert Foreigner) 5 times in 2016 already and Parting is 5-0, watching the Blizzcon match has no appeal. However, if they haven't played all year, it makes the match more exciting/interesting. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again! -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo. When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community. Oh my fucking god please leave | ||
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
On August 29 2016 16:56 ossavi09 wrote: going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?). You don't know what you're talking about. Ask a player like State how hard it is to move to Korea. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
On August 29 2016 22:44 iloveav wrote: It does feel strange that the people who financially benefit from the region lock (at the expense of the people who suffer from it) will support this system and expect everyone else to take their opinion as anywhere near objective or un-biased. I am unsure how it will impact the popularity of SC2 in the long run, but it is still something that feels "wrong". I'm not sure I agree with this argument. Pro players may be the ones that benefit from region lock, but they are also the people that would MOST benefit from a popular and successful game. I'm quite sure they are all pretty smart people, and know that the more SC2 is doing better, the more their careers can move forward and keep going. Also, something we may be missing/forgetting: I'm very sure that all progamers (and casters / community people for what it matters) are very passionate about SC2. I/we are all random fans of the game, I may care about it but not at the level of someone who made it his/her career and professional occupation. I don't think anybody went into starcraft, to become a progamer, because they wanted the money (there are more stable / higher rewarding careers for sure, following more standard paths). I'm much more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who care about this game enough to make it its main occupation, rather than the opinion of a fan (of course I'm just a fan as well): that's why I like these interviews very much, and I think we should give progamers their credit and listen to what they say with less suspicion (I'm not saying to take everything without critical sense, but also not suspecting them to talk just to their own benefit).  p.s. about moving to korea vs moving from korea to europe/NA I see a huge difference between an accomplished progamer (like MC to name one) who moves to Europe knowing that he already earned a lot of money and that he is moving there to bring his *huge* skill and experience in a different tournament system, versus someone that moves from Europe to Korea without having prior results, and who is moving to be in a system where i can improve. Koreans don't move to Europe/NA to improve, but to compete in a different system. Foreigners would have to move to Korea to improve and, only then, reap the benefit of their improvements. It's a much higher bet, it takes much more time and it's more difficult. I see a parallel (with all the caveats) in what happens in other sports, where athletes at the end of their careers move to regions where their sport is less developed / competitive to play for a few more years: this is not *that* difficult, see rugby players from NZ/SA/AUS playing their last years in Japan. The opposite is much much much more unlikely, you almost never see a European rugby player moving to NZ to compete in their championship | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it. The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!) I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
ROFL. Thanks for proving my point. On August 29 2016 22:58 catabowl wrote: Wow... Way to politicize it... Your world view is dangerous and should be ridiculed till the end of time. See how dumb that sounds when you attack? Focus on the argument/opinion... stupid Liberal... Ha, see, doesn't help the debate. Now, back to the topic at hand. Keep building that wall. It isn't killing interest and the scene at all. User was warned for this post | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again! -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo. When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community. What about Life, hardworking professional who gambled away all his money and match fixed among other things... yeah bro professionals get their due | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore. yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system. Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it. The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!) I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some. Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either. We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones! | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
On August 30 2016 02:25 Incognoto wrote: Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either. We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones! Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. the pie is shrinking and its interesting watching Blizzard trying to slice it up differently. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 30 2016 02:29 AWalker9 wrote: Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity. Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague) So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments. Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers. I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got. | ||
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