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On August 27 2016 18:17 Traitorwtf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 18:08 Dingodile wrote:
it is not about patience but how they listen to community. They do not listen. Moreover, they don't watch pro matches, like GSL or SSL or SPL. They just do what they like. I'm not even sure if they play SC
I strongly *hope* they do not listen to these suggestions..
Protoss is fairly balanced with the other races, if you nerf the adepts a LOT (e.g. much longer cooldown, remove all shields while shading, etc.) you will have to balance somehow by buffing some other units/areas..
Also it is not true that adepts made zealots completely unused: zealots are still used in pro matches and have their roles.
1) adepts w/o upgrade are super slow in attacking
2) in late game compositions zealot may be better than adepts, because they charge leaving other ranged units free to shot for the protoss (with adepts it's harder to have your whole army shooting because they have low range), they can charge tanks in close range, they are better for sniping zerg structures, etc.
I like the idea of a small change that can impact the counterplays to the adepts, like the smaller sight radius for the shade, because it has less impact on the overall balance but it affects something that many players perceive as bad play (adepts shading around).
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On August 27 2016 20:13 FLuE wrote:
The warpgate mechanic is the core problem with adepts and Protoss in general. The gateway units will always be off because of how strong warpgate is. Make gateway units too strong like adept now and they own the game and easily mass able. Make gateway units too weak and toss struggles early and we get shooting pylons. If you remove warpgate, you could slightly nerf adepts, beef up stalkers and zealots, and then maybe do something with the warp prism where it has charges that can be used to warp In units per energy. Then you still have that in the game in some form but you also don't have a warp prism in your base with 10 units warping in all the sudden.
Summary- remove warpgate, nerf adept, beef up stalker and zealot, let warp prism warp in gateway units at a rate of 50 energy per unit.
Another way would be to nerf the Warp Gate production rate to and buff Gateway production rate such that gateways produce faster. This has been suggested a couple of times — I sure did  — and I think this is the way to go.
However, I don't think that Warp Gate is the core problem with Adepts. The balance problem imo comes primarily from Psionic Transfer because it has too much utility:
- increased mobility (it's a blink of sorts)
- free scouting (if there is no wall-off)
- negates positioning (for example shading on top of sieged tanks)
On top of that the base stats of Adepts are very good.
So, I think the sensible thing is to make Psionic Transfer a Twilight Council upgrade and make Adepts rely on Warp Prisms for mobility without the upgrade. I would also like to see a change to Psionic Transfer where Adepts turn into an attackable shade but also retain their attack (basically simply gaining movement speed and the ability to move through units for a limited duration).
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On August 27 2016 22:08 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 18:17 Traitorwtf wrote:On August 27 2016 18:08 Dingodile wrote:
it is not about patience but how they listen to community. They do not listen. Moreover, they don't watch pro matches, like GSL or SSL or SPL. They just do what they like. I'm not even sure if they play SC I strongly *hope* they do not listen to these suggestions..Protoss is fairly balanced with the other races, if you nerf the adepts a LOT (e.g. much longer cooldown, remove all shields while shading, etc.) you will have to balance somehow by buffing some other units/areas.. Also it is not true that adepts made zealots completely unused: zealots are still used in pro matches and have their roles. 1) adepts w/o upgrade are super slow in attacking 2) in late game compositions zealot may be better than adepts, because they charge leaving other ranged units free to shot for the protoss (with adepts it's harder to have your whole army shooting because they have low range), they can charge tanks in close range, they are better for sniping zerg structures, etc. I like the idea of a small change that can impact the counterplays to the adepts, like the smaller sight radius for the shade, because it has less impact on the overall balance but it affects something that many players perceive as bad play (adepts shading around).
Alot of this is just not true.
Adepts without upgrade are still better then slow zelots without charges. That makes this up.
Zelots are never better then Adepts in anything but sniping buildings (and for that you warp in DTs with adepts): They can charge on an army to make room for your ranged units? Guess what, adepts freaking shade on enemies army and making all the room of the world. They shade on tanks, so they dont even need to get in close range taking first shots. They shade on bio balls so that tanks hit the bioball.
Without a 12 pool i cant remember a game that had Zelots (who havent been a missclick). Adepts are better in scouting, in killing workers, in moving, in harassing, in fighting bio armies, in getting close range, in tanking. They are better in everything then Zelots.
The amount of Protoss is too damn high at the moment, their dominance with adept only play is disgusting to the game, even if it is balanced (which it is not), it is repetitive to the maximum, it is boring to watch, it makes the viewers shut off, it makes the players feel disgusted. The adept would still have a core roll in the protoss army, even without a shade ability what so ever. A nerf to this abilitiy would help the game, not only the balance.
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I don't know, maybe you are right, I was a bit to strong in my statement (I don't know what is true and what it's not  )
However I still see zealots being built in pro games 
Also at least at my level protoss are by far the least played race, so I don't see this huge P dominance.. (plat~diamond)
It's true that you can shade on top of armies, but I still believe that zealots with charge have a role in lategame comp (of course not massing them, but some zealots charging force the opponent to kite back and can complement well the protoss army).. it's just my feeling when I play so I may be wrong.
Finally, I think "disgusting" "boring" "protoss dominance" may be more your experience..
p.s. DTs are super expensive for warp in in base
They are good if you can target a super important building (like I would invest in 3-4 DTs to snipe a spire / greater spire), but you can warp in charging zealots to snipe less crucial buildings for a good trade (like sniping a pool for instance)
edit: btw, P is indeed under represented in almost all leagues
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=0&l=-2
PvX is also quite balanced from the aligulac "top of the ladder", although I'm not sure what games are considered here
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
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how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job.
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Not sure an adept vision nerf will really affect anything. They can still scout easily with it. Even if they were to remove it all together toss can still easily keep tabs on everything vs hallucination, and oracles. I think they should go in a diffident direction all together. I'd prefer if they keep adepts untouched and nerf overchagre or buff banelings vs shields.
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On August 27 2016 22:08 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 18:17 Traitorwtf wrote:On August 27 2016 18:08 Dingodile wrote:
it is not about patience but how they listen to community. They do not listen. Moreover, they don't watch pro matches, like GSL or SSL or SPL. They just do what they like. I'm not even sure if they play SC I strongly *hope* they do not listen to these suggestions..Protoss is fairly balanced with the other races, if you nerf the adepts a LOT (e.g. much longer cooldown, remove all shields while shading, etc.) you will have to balance somehow by buffing some other units/areas.. Also it is not true that adepts made zealots completely unused: zealots are still used in pro matches and have their roles. 1) adepts w/o upgrade are super slow in attacking 2) in late game compositions zealot may be better than adepts, because they charge leaving other ranged units free to shot for the protoss (with adepts it's harder to have your whole army shooting because they have low range), they can charge tanks in close range, they are better for sniping zerg structures, etc. I like the idea of a small change that can impact the counterplays to the adepts, like the smaller sight radius for the shade, because it has less impact on the overall balance but it affects something that many players perceive as bad play (adepts shading around).
adepts and immortals were the only cost efficient units at the beginning of LotV. They could just buff gateway units, the zealot, hard countered by mines, stalkers not enough dps. I would say a boost for charge, immune to concussive, and much faster passive speed, stalkers are still a huge issue since buff too much and you have the possibility of early HotS again.
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avilo saying zerg has the more options? speed/bane or roach ravager in 90% of the games..
everysingle team in korea its like
4 protoss ,1 -2 terran , 1. 1/2 useless zerg
no team besides probably skt with (dark) "rely" on zergs , just because they are so predictable and risky compared to protoss and terran , their all ins are risky as fuck vs mothershipcore etc, tank wm bunker ,fortress , liberator.... tell me a team that rely on their zerg to win ? , while a protoss can play 100% any map , and come up with a diferent strat everytime even in the same map
look what happened to SKT this season , first time using zerg as an ace , and lost everything , ended up in second last place
Dark " the best zerg atm" end up 1-4 in round 3
4 out of 5 zergs lost their ace matches too in round 3
look at code S ,no zerg managed to advance to the first stages of playoff...
is anyone else tired of watching PvX for the past like 3 years? its like 80% of the games at this point have a protoss i personally dont watch sc2 since more than a year ago , only specific games , its so boring... we all know in the end, it comes down to zest , stats , sos classic performance who wins the league (playoffs) , i copy paste it every year.., ever since kespa switched even with life and inno at their peak
i never saw so many zergs not wanting to play zerg as right now.. it is honestly very boring.. its not only limited but zerg has to defend the entire game now there's simply no window at the highest lvl to do damage with the new units terran and protoss are safe regardless of their build or greed . watch any GM zerg stream its all game defending... harassing even for 300 apm players is kind of useless , its so easy to stop with liberator wm tankivac , mothership1clickwin , adepts , etc.. how do you even expect zerg to do damage? terran can triple expand without beign punish at all zerg cant even take the third without losing every drone and the expansion itself ,i want fun games not avilo games.. ZzZz turtle games
nothing can really surprise the enemy that zerg has while da protoss can win games with 1 oracle or 1 dt 3 adepts
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On August 28 2016 02:57 iamkaokao wrote:
is anyone else tired of watching PvX for the past like 3 years?
Well Protoss is winning the most premiers for the last 3 years.
This year they seem to be doing even better and that without actually using the really strong units they were tying to get to in HOTS. As much as the MSC and pylon overcharge may be needed for the race, for me it destroys a whole lot of fun while watching. Seeing literally everything get shut down that T and Z can throw early game and often even later with just a few well placed pylons feels just wrong while the other two races struggle to defend having their whole army at home.
Protoss harass just never fails...
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On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job.
Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build.
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Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.
meh, just test it with less hp (shields)
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On August 28 2016 06:02 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well. meh, just test it with less hp (shields)
Increasing shade cooldown and having the cooldown start when the ability finishes would also be fine I think. At least instances of 30+ workers dying in 30 seconds would be less common, at which point the armies that fight the adepts could be bigger and better.
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I am kind of worried that the Tempest disruption ball ability is a bit ridiculous. That does 70% of the DPS of Psi Storm but has 130% of the AoE, which is just going to absolutely shred Terran everything. The current dominant TvP lategame strat is to make more Liberators than their Tempests can kill so you can just zone the entire ground army out and trade 6-8 liberators for an expansion. If Tempest can suddenly drop a bunch of AoE to keep the bio away while simultaneously annihilating all the Libs from 16 range away it's going to be messy.
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On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build.
Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles.
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On August 28 2016 06:11 Xequecal wrote:
I am kind of worried that the Tempest disruption ball ability is a bit ridiculous. That does 70% of the DPS of Psi Storm but has 130% of the AoE, which is just going to absolutely shred Terran everything. The current dominant TvP lategame strat is to make more Liberators than their Tempests can kill so you can just zone the entire ground army out and trade 6-8 liberators for an expansion. If Tempest can suddenly drop a bunch of AoE to keep the bio away while simultaneously annihilating all the Libs from 16 range away it's going to be messy.
I think with this patch you're just supposed to go mech against Protoss. And Terran. And Zerg if you feel like it.
On August 28 2016 06:13 _Epi_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build. Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles.
Banshees having cloak without research would be more Wings of Liberty beta than the actual Wings beta I think.
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On August 28 2016 06:13 _Epi_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build. Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles.
Yeah, this doesn't work. First of all, unlike a single missile turret vs. oracles, one cannon doesn't cover a mineral line against banshees, they can still kill half your probes without getting shot by the cannon. It takes 14 stalker shots to kill a banshee, so to beat this you need two stalkers plus a cannon in BOTH mineral lines. If you spend this many resources at the timing you need to do so you will just die to literally any other aggressive opening by Terran, let alone any kind of all in. Even overcharge won't save you if you're stuck on 1 or 2 gates because you had to spend all your other resources making this defense.
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On August 28 2016 06:22 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 06:13 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build. Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles. Yeah, this doesn't work. First of all one cannon doesn't cover a mineral line against banshees, they can still kill half your probes without getting shot by the cannon. It takes 14 stalker shots to kill a banshee, so to beat this you need two stalkers plus a cannon in BOTH mineral lines. If you spend this many resources at the timing you need to do so you will just die to literally any other aggressive opening by Terran, let alone any kind of all in. Even overcharge won't save you if you're stuck on 1 or 2 gates because you had to spend all your other resources making this defense.
You also fall really behind if the Terran fakes you out and just goes greedy.
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On August 28 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 06:22 Xequecal wrote:On August 28 2016 06:13 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build. Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles. Yeah, this doesn't work. First of all one cannon doesn't cover a mineral line against banshees, they can still kill half your probes without getting shot by the cannon. It takes 14 stalker shots to kill a banshee, so to beat this you need two stalkers plus a cannon in BOTH mineral lines. If you spend this many resources at the timing you need to do so you will just die to literally any other aggressive opening by Terran, let alone any kind of all in. Even overcharge won't save you if you're stuck on 1 or 2 gates because you had to spend all your other resources making this defense. You also fall really behind if the Terran fakes you out and just goes greedy.
Sounds really familiar to me being a Terran.
On August 28 2016 06:22 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 06:13 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 05:56 Xequecal wrote:On August 27 2016 23:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
how about make cloak available by default, but speed upgrade replace it in the lab, and nerf speed bonus that upgrade giving or increase value etc etc, because it's obvious that 2 upgrades on banshee is too much, unit exist just for harassment and useless against protoss in this job. Cloak available by default means the banshee is out way before Protoss can get detection off any reasonable expansion build. Well how about get a forge like terran has to get an ebay for ages now for dts and oracles. Yeah, this doesn't work. First of all, unlike a single missile turret vs. oracles, one cannon doesn't cover a mineral line against banshees, they can still kill half your probes without getting shot by the cannon. It takes 14 stalker shots to kill a banshee, so to beat this you need two stalkers plus a cannon in BOTH mineral lines. If you spend this many resources at the timing you need to do so you will just die to literally any other aggressive opening by Terran, let alone any kind of all in. Even overcharge won't save you if you're stuck on 1 or 2 gates because you had to spend all your other resources making this defense.
Exactly the same applies for turrets. Except the DPS of Marines to Stalkers is a bit different, but guess how many marineshots you need to kill an oracle or a dt. And besides that guess how easily the marine is killed in contrary to the stalker.
Well nvm, this situation is standard for terran since hots.
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On August 28 2016 06:43 _Epi_ wrote:
Exactly the same applies for turrets. Except the DPS of Marines to Stalkers is a bit different, but guess how many marineshots you need to kill an oracle or a dt. And besides that guess how easily the marine is killed in contrary to the stalker.
Well nvm, this situation is standard for terran since hots.
No, it doesn't. Oracles have 4 range, a single missile turret in the minerals covers all your workers. The oracle can snipe off a couple gas workers but they have to take fire from the turret to do so. They cannot kill your mineral workers at all. A single widow mine will also cover all your mineral workers against oracle harass.
Banshees, on the other hand, have 6 range. A single cannon in the minerals does NOT cover the whole mineral line. The banshee can kill half of your probes without taking any damage if you don't have two stalkers there as well.
Having cloak immediately would work if banshees had range 4 to begin with and there was an upgrade to put them back to 6 in place of the cloak upgrade. But with the current stats it would be absolutely broken.
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On August 28 2016 06:49 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 06:43 _Epi_ wrote:
Exactly the same applies for turrets. Except the DPS of Marines to Stalkers is a bit different, but guess how many marineshots you need to kill an oracle or a dt. And besides that guess how easily the marine is killed in contrary to the stalker.
Well nvm, this situation is standard for terran since hots.
No, it doesn't. Oracles have 4 range, a single missile turret in the minerals covers all your workers. The oracle can snipe off a couple gas workers but they have to take fire from the turret to do so. They cannot kill your mineral workers at all. A single widow mine will also cover all your mineral workers against oracle harass. Banshees, on the other hand, have 6 range. A single cannon in the minerals does NOT cover the whole mineral line. The banshee can kill half of your probes without taking any damage if you don't have two stalkers there as well. Having cloak immediately would work if banshees had range 4 to begin with and there was an upgrade to put them back to 6 in place of the cloak upgrade. But with the current stats it would be absolutely broken.
dude the cannon is for detection so you can hunt off the banshe with whatever you like. So it is almost the same. Stalkers have range of 6 so this should be easy peacy with some micro. And with a phoenix its insta gg since the banshee is so slow.
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EPT
