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On August 28 2016 07:53 _Epi_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote:
I think you see less banshee because when you are building banshees you are not building medivacs, and this delays the push with bio. This is not something you fix with free cloack though (I think)
Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm.
And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. You dont see banshees in TvP at all because they are so easily countered by protoss. Thats it, normally an observer is already out. Wouldnt be that unfair to have to force protoss to actually scout better and prepare properly. As I have said already, that is the situation for terran for years already.
You need stargate+robo or stargate+forge+cannons at each base to counter cloak banshees. Or forge+cannon+2stalkers at each base to counter 1cloak banshee.
Even with 2stalkers, you still need 8shots to kill the one banshee. Imagine there are 2 or more banshees.
All these are gigantic investment and forces the toss to deviate from tech path. Terran 1 turret per base investment is not even remotely close to these.
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On August 28 2016 15:31 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 07:53 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote:
I think you see less banshee because when you are building banshees you are not building medivacs, and this delays the push with bio. This is not something you fix with free cloack though (I think)
Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm.
And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. You dont see banshees in TvP at all because they are so easily countered by protoss. Thats it, normally an observer is already out. Wouldnt be that unfair to have to force protoss to actually scout better and prepare properly. As I have said already, that is the situation for terran for years already. You need stargate+robo or stargate+forge+cannons at each base to counter cloak banshees. Or forge+cannon+2stalkers at each base to counter 1cloak banshee. Even with 2stalkers, you still need 8shots to kill the one banshee. Imagine there are 2 or more banshees. All these are gigantic investment and forces the toss to deviate from tech path. Terran 1 turret per base investment is not even remotely close to these.
honestly, this makes me laugh so hard. You guys are explaining that cloaked banshees would be ridiciolously overpowered. But you never see Banshees in TvP because they suck so hard. You can get cloak easily by the time the banshee arrives, no problemo.
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On August 28 2016 10:12 BEZZiiE wrote:
How about with the adepts you add collision to shade against enemy units.
I think it has no collision with forcefield either, you can't really interact with it.
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How about with the adepts you add collision to shade against enemy units. Then a couple of Shades can indefinately block a ramp. Unless Blizzard realizes that there is something like push priority in the editor, but I wouldn't trust them to predict something this obvious in advance, never mind being aware of existence of "push priority" field.
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On August 28 2016 15:31 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 07:53 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote:
I think you see less banshee because when you are building banshees you are not building medivacs, and this delays the push with bio. This is not something you fix with free cloack though (I think)
Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm.
And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. You dont see banshees in TvP at all because they are so easily countered by protoss. Thats it, normally an observer is already out. Wouldnt be that unfair to have to force protoss to actually scout better and prepare properly. As I have said already, that is the situation for terran for years already. You need stargate+robo or stargate+forge+cannons at each base to counter cloak banshees. Or forge+cannon+2stalkers at each base to counter 1cloak banshee. Even with 2stalkers, you still need 8shots to kill the one banshee. Imagine there are 2 or more banshees. All these are gigantic investment and forces the toss to deviate from tech path. Terran 1 turret per base investment is not even remotely close to these.
You got shooting supply depots for that.
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On August 28 2016 15:47 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 10:12 BEZZiiE wrote:
How about with the adepts you add collision to shade against enemy units. I think it has no collision with forcefield either, you can't really interact with it.
Right now shades interact with other shades, meaning you can block opponent shades with the shades of your adepts (I know it's almost impossible  I just wanted to bring up the fact)
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On August 28 2016 20:51 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 15:47 Grumbels wrote:On August 28 2016 10:12 BEZZiiE wrote:
How about with the adepts you add collision to shade against enemy units. I think it has no collision with forcefield either, you can't really interact with it. Right now shades interact with other shades, meaning you can block opponent shades with the shades of your adepts (I know it's almost impossible I just wanted to bring up the fact)
Yeah, I recall that being the case. wasn't it also the case that the early version of the disruptor had the same sort of pathing of no collision with anything except itself? You couldn't block it with forcefield either, which at the time seemed silly to me because it removes a normal/expected use of forcefield. (maybe it would have be blocked by shades)
I thought the reason for this must be technical, that they had this pathfinding class and changing it so that these type of units could be blocked by forcefield but nothing else wasn't a priority. but I haven't checked in the editor or anything
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On August 27 2016 03:36 iamkaokao wrote:
i'll like to see overlord speed increase (better harass , and vision) , or at least the morphed one for drops , it would also help holding the abundant 10pool zvz
I would love an ability for drop overlords similar to medivac speed boost but this one uses overlord health as food while active.
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On August 28 2016 13:40 Nezgar wrote:
It's unfortunate that a lot of the discussion here is done by overly zealous Terrans, making grand statements backed with either no or false statistics.
Let's look at those first:
Protoss matchups in professional games are very well balanced result-wise. They are currently sitting at 50.23% in PvT and 50.10% in PvZ according to aligulac. That's pretty much as balanced as it can get.
They had a strong PvT around May (52.71%), which was as dominating as Terrans in TvZ during June (52.63%), but the results have since evened out.
In terms of aligulac ratings, Protoss has not been the dominant race even once since the release of LotV. Out of the 21 intervals, they have been the lagging race for the first 13 intervals.
Of course this may very well be heavily influenced by the strong performance of a few select individuals (I am looking at you, Byun).
Out of the 13 premier tournaments since LotV release, we had 5 Zerg, 5 Protoss and 3 Terran champions. There were 11 zerg, 9 Protoss and 6 Terran finalists.
With that out of the way, I think we can focus on design decisions.
I heard an awful lot of "Remove Adepts", "Nerf them into oblivion" along with crazy suggestions to remove their shield when casting their shades, severe HP/Shield nerfs on top of DPS nerfs.
While I agree that the Adept is a very strong unit that might be a bit too strong in the worker harass department due to their mobility, straight-up nerfing their core stats seems like the wrong way to go about it.
Keep in mind that the strong Adept in its current form is why we get to see a Protoss that is so different from the "Try to stay alive until Colossus are out" we had in HotS that you all were complaining about.
If you want to nerf the Adept into the ground and buff lategame Protoss units, we are bound to go back to the HotS style of being overly defensive until Protoss has a deathball of high-tech units... Relying on Pylon overcharges and the MSC to even stay alive. And the same could be said about the Warpprism nerfs some of you are suggesting.
I thought we all agreed that Protoss should move away from such a defensive playstyle, more into being able to have some map control in the early game.
From what I have read thus far, I get the very strong impression that you don't really care about what Protoss does as long as they are not winning.
Protoss earlygame is too weak so that they have to sit in their base until they have high-tech units? Nerf high-tech units.
Protoss gateway unit(s) are strong enough that they can apply pressure and win games without going to high-tech units? Nerf gateway units.
For now I'd suggest to be patient until we have matchmaking on the test map and get more data on how the matchups play out with the proposed changes by Blizzard.
Thanks for one of the few level headed posts in this thread.
If your post is colored by emotionally charged language like 'disgusting' or 'cancer' etc it pretty much gets disregarded immediately.
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Btw, for anyone wondering why the crazy Cyclone stats don't seem to translate into in-game performance, it's because it's firing a lot slower than it's supposed to.
I measured 50 dps against armored (1 base armor) instead of the 71 (5/.07) it's supposed to do on paper.
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On August 28 2016 15:31 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 07:53 _Epi_ wrote:On August 28 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote:
I think you see less banshee because when you are building banshees you are not building medivacs, and this delays the push with bio. This is not something you fix with free cloack though (I think)
Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm.
And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. You dont see banshees in TvP at all because they are so easily countered by protoss. Thats it, normally an observer is already out. Wouldnt be that unfair to have to force protoss to actually scout better and prepare properly. As I have said already, that is the situation for terran for years already. You need stargate+robo or stargate+forge+cannons at each base to counter cloak banshees. Or forge+cannon+2stalkers at each base to counter 1cloak banshee. Even with 2stalkers, you still need 8shots to kill the one banshee. Imagine there are 2 or more banshees. All these are gigantic investment and forces the toss to deviate from tech path. Terran 1 turret per base investment is not even remotely close to these.
No. Protoss needs only a Pylon, an Observer, and a Mother shop Core to deflect a Cloaked Banshee. Robotics builds with Twilight Council (for Blink) follow-up or Stargate builds with Phoenixes are both completely standard for Protoss, which means Terran's gas investment will be easily deflected if Protoss simply plays properly
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Every single agression the terran can perform against protoss is pretty much countered by going stalkers + obs. Doesn't matter what tech you're going for, as long as you land a robo, build a MSC and BUILD UNITS you're gonna be fine.
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On August 29 2016 10:41 Beliskner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 13:40 Nezgar wrote:
It's unfortunate that a lot of the discussion here is done by overly zealous Terrans, making grand statements backed with either no or false statistics.
Let's look at those first:
Protoss matchups in professional games are very well balanced result-wise. They are currently sitting at 50.23% in PvT and 50.10% in PvZ according to aligulac. That's pretty much as balanced as it can get.
They had a strong PvT around May (52.71%), which was as dominating as Terrans in TvZ during June (52.63%), but the results have since evened out.
In terms of aligulac ratings, Protoss has not been the dominant race even once since the release of LotV. Out of the 21 intervals, they have been the lagging race for the first 13 intervals.
Of course this may very well be heavily influenced by the strong performance of a few select individuals (I am looking at you, Byun).
Out of the 13 premier tournaments since LotV release, we had 5 Zerg, 5 Protoss and 3 Terran champions. There were 11 zerg, 9 Protoss and 6 Terran finalists.
With that out of the way, I think we can focus on design decisions.
I heard an awful lot of "Remove Adepts", "Nerf them into oblivion" along with crazy suggestions to remove their shield when casting their shades, severe HP/Shield nerfs on top of DPS nerfs.
While I agree that the Adept is a very strong unit that might be a bit too strong in the worker harass department due to their mobility, straight-up nerfing their core stats seems like the wrong way to go about it.
Keep in mind that the strong Adept in its current form is why we get to see a Protoss that is so different from the "Try to stay alive until Colossus are out" we had in HotS that you all were complaining about.
If you want to nerf the Adept into the ground and buff lategame Protoss units, we are bound to go back to the HotS style of being overly defensive until Protoss has a deathball of high-tech units... Relying on Pylon overcharges and the MSC to even stay alive. And the same could be said about the Warpprism nerfs some of you are suggesting.
I thought we all agreed that Protoss should move away from such a defensive playstyle, more into being able to have some map control in the early game.
From what I have read thus far, I get the very strong impression that you don't really care about what Protoss does as long as they are not winning.
Protoss earlygame is too weak so that they have to sit in their base until they have high-tech units? Nerf high-tech units.
Protoss gateway unit(s) are strong enough that they can apply pressure and win games without going to high-tech units? Nerf gateway units.
For now I'd suggest to be patient until we have matchmaking on the test map and get more data on how the matchups play out with the proposed changes by Blizzard. Thanks for one of the few level headed posts in this thread. If your post is colored by emotionally charged language like 'disgusting' or 'cancer' etc it pretty much gets disregarded immediately.
I quote 100% Nezgar's post, nicely written
It's also a bit weird since the main complaint I read about protoss is that they rely on "gimmicky" strategy (whatever that means), and then you'd like a banshee with free cloak.. doesn't that go in the same direction?
I read a lot of posts with sweeping statements that don't admit a reply (like "no. it's like this. stop."), at least at my level of play I can only guess how things works, I don't think anything is set in stone and players can adapt and figure out solutions... sometimes it seems the discussion here is more a way come out on top rather than figure out stuff.. which is a pity since this, at least for me, is the main platform where I can talk about sc2..
For instance, just from the post above:
"Every single agression the terran can perform against protoss is pretty much countered by going stalkers + obs. Doesn't matter what tech you're going for, as long as you land a robo, build a MSC and BUILD UNITS you're gonna be fine."
Are you 100% sure that "every single aggression" can be hold with stalkers+obs?? I'm not saying you are wrong, but in my experience even early bio pushes with stim can be problematic, especially if you set up a defense with stalkers, which die very easily to stimmed bio.
We have PO, but you cannot have infinite pylons, I usually prefer to cover both mineral lines with pylons, which leaves maybe 1-2 pylons at the front: you stim 16 marines and take out the pylons (and I'm not going to be able to defend with stalkers for sure). Had I opened with more adepts I could have held probably, but them a cloaked banshee would have done big damage..
This is all fanta-starcraft, I agree, it's just to say that playing the game is much more nuanced than how you put it, imho.
Reading this it seems protoss *never* dies to early aggression, which is very extreme.
p.s. @EatingBomber (cool nickname  ) blink stalkers into phoenixes vs terran is definitely not a standard build order eheh
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I actually had a great idea which I'm gonna present again for the infestor!!!
Acidic Spores: The infestor shoots a green orb of spores at the ground which stays dormant until an enemy moves within 1.5 range of it, then it detonates dealing heavy damage vs light units in addition to a minor slow effect. Spores placed on creep cloak after a short fade delay.
Energy Cost: 75
Cooldown: 5 seconds
Damage: 5 per second 10 vs light
AOE: About the same as a tank shot.
Slow: 15%
Duration: 3 seconds
Role: the role of this ability is to have a PRE pathogen glands timing for infestors to fight mass lings and marine shoves. also does well vs adepts and zealots.. the cloaking aspect will wreck heavy investments in ling runbys and bad clumping...
Second Idea!!!
My second idea to bring the infestor into the spotlight is a RECURSION of the parasite that the queen had..
Lesser Parasite: The infestor launches a small infectious spore cloud at an area infecting all biological units that pass through it with "Lesser parasites". These parasites last until the unit receives healing. They provide vision of 1 around the unit.
Energy Cost: 75
Cooldown: N/A
AOE: About twice as big as a tank shot, Same as fungal.
Duration: 2.5 seconds
Hive tech upgrade at ultralisk cavern!
Ultra- Strain :
This upgrade allows The lesser parasites to be replaced by "Ultrastrain Parasites" Which after 240 seconds of being inside of a host will destroy the host and spawn a broodling.
Notes: Parasites will (as in broodwar) be revealed by a note added to the infocard of the unit as well as causing him to glow green in the wiretool card. The parasite is instantly eradicated with any healing.
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hmm,
how about reducing duration of the shade ability itself?
It would make shade having less possible distance, which would make for easier defense.
Also it would nerf scouting capabilities a bit.
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If pylon overcharge is to or should get at disposal you guys should elaborate why it was brought into the game and if these factors can be changed.
That mainly comes down to terran bio + medivacs. Protoss was just too weak in split up fights against terran units that are getting healed. And the fact that bio + medivac anyway are the main army component of any terran army so the tech and units were a zero commitment.
If that changes we can can drop pylon overcharge.
The same about the adept. Bio was just too strong since release of WOL and could only be countered with massive splash units when not going all-in. Therefore the game got stale on very narrow unit compositions and timings. Therefore they introduced adepts in the manner they were.
Get the bio issue fixed and you fix the fundamentals of the game.
Fixing it means less omnipotence of bio and more requirement of supplementation of other and higher tech units. Imo the best way to do it is to remove the marauder from early game and move it behind some expensive tech in terms of time and resources (T3). Then terran had to fill this gap with units from factories. Marauders just add what is too much to bio. They are too solid in tanking damage and other than that even counter armored units - all that at the same mobility as marines and with basically the same tech requirements. This is what mech should have been there for.
The current solution with marauders is below standard. Having their attack splitted into two attacks makes them worse against units with armor. This is contrary to the idea of design to let them counter armored units. It underlines the issue with the unit imo.
On a seperate note:
I dislike the fact that we have units with armor and on the other hand units with the armored tech. In a perfect world this should not exist. A unit like the ultralisk with 8 amor is an amored unit, a unit with 0 armor isn't an armored unit, an non-ugraded ultralisk is a less armored unit than a fully upgraded one. I know that these tags helps to make balancing easier but I believe it could get redundant with a perfect system.
In this regard:
I imagine a more organic system with the tags to be potentially more interesting and dynamic if this can be made viable:
Why don't you let anti armor damage scale with the amount of armor the attacked unit has (the more armor the more damage)?
Then anti light damage could scale with the armor the attacked unit doesn't have (the more armor the less damage).
I know that requires alot of change and testing but I think it is worth thinking it through. We could get some completely new and interesting interactions and strategies.
Example with zealot:
If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage:
0-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x8 = 16
against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16
against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16
...
1-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x9 = 18
against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18
...
Just a thought.
Obviously this alone does not seem viable.
Probably it creates unnecessary complexity.
Maybe it can be expanded with any brilliant idea to bring it into a viable spot? Anyone?
Anyway I believe with such fundamental changes as planned the whole thing with the tags should be thought through again and if possible improved.
But really this isn't the most pressing issue of SC2 if at all, don't get me wrong. I just don't like the boring tags that much at all and would rather see the bonus damage of anti armored or non armored somehow come out of the stats of the interacting units itself and be a bit more dynamic. Probably too difficult to make it viable.
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Example with zealot:
If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage:
0-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x8 = 16
against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16
against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16
...
1-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x9 = 18
against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18 Simpler solution to above example - attacks ignore armor. Very easy to change.
But if you want specific unit to deal specific bonus damage vs some specific unit but different vs another, then it can get very complicated, messy and time consuming to implement.
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On August 29 2016 19:46 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +Example with zealot:
If a zealot did 8x2 normal damage and had the damage against armored units tag then it could do the following damage:
0-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x8 = 16
against 1 armor 2x7 + 2x1 = 16
against 2 armor 2x6 + 2x2 = 16
...
1-0-0 zealot:
against 0 armor 2x9 = 18
against 1 armor 2x8 + 2x1 = 18 Simpler solution to above example - attacks ignore armor. Very easy to change. But if you want specific unit to deal specific bonus damage vs some specific unit but different vs another, then it can get very complicated, messy and time consuming to implement.
Warcraft III armor system now!
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Wish they would increase the combat power of the Banshee to make up for the stronger option each race has against Banshees since early HotS. Speed buff sounds just wrong for a cloaked atg.
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On August 29 2016 23:08 FeyFey wrote:
Wish they would increase the combat power of the Banshee to make up for the stronger option each race has against Banshees since early HotS. Speed buff sounds just wrong for a cloaked atg.
Having fast flying units that are strong enough to stand on their own against anti-flyer units is a very bad idea. Having overly strong flying units in general is a very bad idea, since it completely negates most map features. It also removes the element of good positioning from the game, which would be a significant loss. I shouldn't even have to mention the horrors we have experienced with sky-X armies (you can substitute the X for any race, really) in the lategame.
On August 29 2016 17:42 LSN wrote:
If pylon overcharge is to or should get at disposal you guys should elaborate why it was brought into the game and if these factors can be changed.
That mainly comes down to terran bio + medivacs. Protoss was just too weak in split up fights against terran units that are getting healed. And the fact that bio + medivac anyway are the main army component of any terran army so the tech and units were a zero commitment.
If that changes we can can drop pylon overcharge.
The same about the adept. Bio was just too strong since release of WOL and could only be countered with massive splash units when not going all-in. Therefore the game got stale on very narrow unit compositions and timings. Therefore they introduced adepts in the manner they were.
Get the bio issue fixed and you fix the fundamentals of the game.
I can agree with you up to this point. I have elaborated before why strong Adepts or Gateway units in general are important for Protoss to not have to revert back to their HotS style.
The problem with Photon Overcharge is not that bio is too strong in the early- to midgame, we have buffed Adepts for that. The problem here is the mobility of high DPS units that can ignore terrain. That includes not just Medivacs, but also Mutalisks and the stronger Warp Prism.
If you as the attacker can move your forces faster from one enemy base to the other than the defender, it causes a lot of problems. If it then also ignores terrain and defenses, it's even more troublesome. It is the main reason why I loathe the boost on Medivacs, it is the most problematic unit in the game and has been for a very long time, if you ask me. Not in terms of pure balancing, but in terms of design.
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EPT
