EPTCommunity Feedback Update - 8/26 - Page 5
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VHbb
692 Posts
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On August 28 2016 07:21 VHbb wrote: Yes but so you are forcing the protoss to build 1 cannon in each mineral line + 2 stalkers (usually you don't open with stalkers). That is the point I am trying to make. That is basically what is done to terrans for the past 3 years. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
 That's not the same to me, marines are the core of the bio terran composition, while stalkers definitely are not. The terran would build marines anyway, while if I make 2-4 stalkers, then they are much less useful in the midgame and I risk to just die to a bio push because stalkers are bad vs marauders and marines. Edit: also you don't need to have marines AND turrets blindly in each mineral line. You can either leave some marines (and if you don't see the oracle then they move out) or build a turret to be safe. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On August 28 2016 07:32 VHbb wrote: Forcing them to make marines ? That's not the same to me, marines are the core of the bio terran composition, while stalkers definitely are not. The terran would build marines anyway, while if I make 2-4 stalkers, then they are much less useful in the midgame and I risk to just die to a bio push because stalkers are bad vs marauders and marines. No but getting a turret for dts or oracles. Against oracles you do not always need it but to be honest as protoss you wouldnt need the cannon in each case aswell. We are talking about detection mainly, because that is the key point of this discussion, not the banshee itself. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
1) detection: you don't need detection for oracles so they are not the point. As terran you either build turrets or save 1-2 scans. You can also repair turrets in case they are under attack. As protoss you need cannons (which cannot be repaired, and you also need a pylon close to the minerals) or a robo + observer (which is a large investment). Also, as protoss, you need 2-3 stalkers in each mineral line to deflect a banshee and it's easy to just fly away with the banshee. In the meantime you forced units which are BAD vs bio terran. As terran you can save one scan and kill the DTs with stimmed bio since the DTs doesnt fly  it may escape but it's much more difficult. Also you are not being forced to build units that are not useful later on.DTs are a much bigger investment because it's more difficult to get into the enemy base (w/o prism) and much much more difficult to get away, so usually you loose them and you have to trade well with them to not be behind. 2) flying harassment unit: as terran you need to either leave some marines in the mineral lines or build turrets. Also in this case you are building units that you would build either way, and you just need one turret per mineral line if you want to move out with the marines. As toss you would need (for cloacked banshee) 1 cannon + 2 stalker per mineral line (in most maps this means 4 stalkers to cover natural and main since moving stalkers from one place to an other is long), so you are forcing the toss to invest quite heavily in units he would not need later on, and that trade very bad vs terran bio. Also you can simply move out of the detection range of the cannons and kill pylons, trailing units, transferring probes, etc. (this is possible with the oracle as well but a) you don't have infinite energy and b) it's easier to chase it since it's not invisible) | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On August 28 2016 07:43 VHbb wrote: Well there are two points: 1) detection: you don't need detection for oracles so they are not the point. As terran you either build turrets or save 1-2 scans. You can also repair turrets in case they are under attack. As protoss you need cannons (which cannot be repaired, and you also need a pylon close to the minerals) or a robo + observer (which is a large investment). Also, as protoss, you need 2-3 stalkers in each mineral line to deflect a banshee and it's easy to just fly away with the banshee. In the meantime you forced units which are BAD vs bio terran. As terran you can save one scan and kill the DTs with stimmed bio since the DTs doesnt fly it may escape but it's much more difficult. Also you are not being forced to build units that are not useful later on.DTs are a much bigger investment because it's more difficult to get into the enemy base (w/o prism) and much much more difficult to get away, so usually you loose them and you have to trade well with them to not be behind. 2) flying harassment unit: as terran you need to either leave some marines in the mineral lines or build turrets. Also in this case you are building units that you would build either way, and you just need one turret per mineral line if you want to move out with the marines. As toss you would need (for cloacked banshee) 1 cannon + 2 stalker per mineral line (in most maps this means 4 stalkers to cover natural and main since moving stalkers from one place to an other is long), so you are forcing the toss to invest quite heavily in units he would not need later on, and that trade very bad vs terran bio. Also you can simply move out of the detection range of the cannons and kill pylons, trailing units, transferring probes, etc. (this is possible with the oracle as well but a) you don't have infinite energy and b) it's easier to chase it since it's not invisible) Weird enough that you never see banshees in TvP by how awesome they must be by your explanation. I think deep down your arguments dont apply as good as you think they do. Since everything you have said applies to terran to a certain extent aswell. If you have not enough marines the oracle just erases your few marines, or you can be dragged out of position easily. Each scan is also some damage for not having the mule to keep up with protoss superior economy. Well nvm | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm. And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On August 28 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote: I think you see less banshee because when you are building banshees you are not building medivacs, and this delays the push with bio. This is not something you fix with free cloack though (I think) Also I don't think banshee are *awesome* at all, but I guess it's just sarcasm. And yes, scans come with a price, but that's ok: if you scan and kill my DTs you have to sacrifice something no? You can always build turrets if you think the investment is worth.. You dont see banshees in TvP at all because they are so easily countered by protoss. Thats it, normally an observer is already out. Wouldnt be that unfair to have to force protoss to actually scout better and prepare properly. As I have said already, that is the situation for terran for years already. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
I said before while I think it's not fair, because the situation is not symmetrical and P needs to invest more to deflect banshees. Anyway I see you just want to whine vs protoss so ok, nothing I can do about it gg | ||
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Penev
28522 Posts
On August 28 2016 06:09 Elentos wrote: Increasing shade cooldown and having the cooldown start when the ability finishes would also be fine I think. At least instances of 30+ workers dying in 30 seconds would be less common, at which point the armies that fight the adepts could be bigger and better. That's better than reducing the vision radius for sure but reducing hp would make it less tanky than a Zealot which is something I'd like to see as well and not to forget make the shading on top of armies less preferable | ||
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BEZZiiE
6 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On August 28 2016 06:49 Xequecal wrote: No, it doesn't. Oracles have 4 range, a single missile turret in the minerals covers all your workers. No it doesn't oracles can kill about 40-50% of a mineral line without getting hit by a turret, also 2 range is about the size of single mineral patch. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
You should either have one or another. A tank that is strong and can take a fight but not as mobile. Or harass unit that can move fast and weak. Adept is the mix of both. Maybe a good way is to make adept less tanky from the start. W an upgrade you increase the rate of fire and also more hp. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I think you could just make the adept the zealot role, and the shade is the "speed" mechanic of the zealot. The shade should wear off much faster and it is then just like charge but you can choose to cancel it. Then you also can't use the shade to go between 2 bases. The shade should be really fast but only a few seconds before you have to cancel it or let your units warp. Removing units is OK, if we have something better than the zealot than fine, get rid of the zealot. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
It's nice to see Hydras in the mid game, they're interesting in conjunction with Lurkers. We'll see how it pans out in the late game if Zergs can get there more often, but I'm fearful that Ultras are still too strong when a-moving in conjunction with these high-utility Hydras. I think the next balance pass needs to be made at air units, however. Air units are still just too efficient at killing ground units, and I'd really love to see Liberator, Banshee and Oracle anti-ground nerfs next. I'd like to have Liberators take an extra shot to kill most Protoss units. I'd like Banshees to take 3 shots to kill workers, but with a slight HP buff. And I think Oracle anti-light attack should be removed, and its function to shift from worker harass to utility spellcaster (revelation and stasis ward) | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
Let's look at those first: Protoss matchups in professional games are very well balanced result-wise. They are currently sitting at 50.23% in PvT and 50.10% in PvZ according to aligulac. That's pretty much as balanced as it can get. They had a strong PvT around May (52.71%), which was as dominating as Terrans in TvZ during June (52.63%), but the results have since evened out. In terms of aligulac ratings, Protoss has not been the dominant race even once since the release of LotV. Out of the 21 intervals, they have been the lagging race for the first 13 intervals. Of course this may very well be heavily influenced by the strong performance of a few select individuals (I am looking at you, Byun). Out of the 13 premier tournaments since LotV release, we had 5 Zerg, 5 Protoss and 3 Terran champions. There were 11 zerg, 9 Protoss and 6 Terran finalists. With that out of the way, I think we can focus on design decisions. I heard an awful lot of "Remove Adepts", "Nerf them into oblivion" along with crazy suggestions to remove their shield when casting their shades, severe HP/Shield nerfs on top of DPS nerfs. While I agree that the Adept is a very strong unit that might be a bit too strong in the worker harass department due to their mobility, straight-up nerfing their core stats seems like the wrong way to go about it. Keep in mind that the strong Adept in its current form is why we get to see a Protoss that is so different from the "Try to stay alive until Colossus are out" we had in HotS that you all were complaining about. If you want to nerf the Adept into the ground and buff lategame Protoss units, we are bound to go back to the HotS style of being overly defensive until Protoss has a deathball of high-tech units... Relying on Pylon overcharges and the MSC to even stay alive. And the same could be said about the Warpprism nerfs some of you are suggesting. I thought we all agreed that Protoss should move away from such a defensive playstyle, more into being able to have some map control in the early game. From what I have read thus far, I get the very strong impression that you don't really care about what Protoss does as long as they are not winning. Protoss earlygame is too weak so that they have to sit in their base until they have high-tech units? Nerf high-tech units. Protoss gateway unit(s) are strong enough that they can apply pressure and win games without going to high-tech units? Nerf gateway units. For now I'd suggest to be patient until we have matchmaking on the test map and get more data on how the matchups play out with the proposed changes by Blizzard. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On August 28 2016 07:46 _Epi_ wrote: Weird enough that you never see banshees in TvP by how awesome they must be by your explanation. I think deep down your arguments dont apply as good as you think they do. Since everything you have said applies to terran to a certain extent aswell. If you have not enough marines the oracle just erases your few marines, or you can be dragged out of position easily. Each scan is also some damage for not having the mule to keep up with protoss superior economy. Well nvm You don't see banshees because cloak costs extra and comes too late for them to be effective. If cloak was free, that all changes. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
With the new changes kinda going in a good direction, i feel like the next big thing to change in the game is the PO. Pylon rushing chokes and one clic defense is so fucking bad for the game. Also it has to make protoss weaker at certain points in the game to compensate for the immense defensive capabilities it gives, which i suppose is annoying for protoss players. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On August 28 2016 14:09 Xequecal wrote: You don't see banshees because cloak costs extra and comes too late for them to be effective. If cloak was free, that all changes. Cloak normally hits by the time the banshee arrives at the other base. Maybe there is a delay of 10sec. But hey, really nevermind. | ||
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