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On August 18 2016 01:10 mick007 wrote:Hello. I have some design questions that i have expressed in this thread, but i was told to post it there, so here i go  I will copy paste what i have previously post, hope you don't mind the wall of text + Show Spoiler +Hello.
I would like to talk about the design changes currently planned for LOTV, specifically the Zealot and the Reaper.
But first, let me "introduce" myself.
I have little knownledge about the duel aspect of Starcraft 2 : i used to play heart of the swarm with a friend, playing 2v2. We managed to reach master, so i'm not a total noob , but again, i have little to no knowledge about 1v1 buld order etc..
I"m talking mostly from a "spectator" point of view, and from a "designer" point of view.
So, now, about the redesign of the game.
From my understanding, the dev team is trying to achieve 2 things :
1. They want to make mech play viable, and by doing so, they need to rebalance many units. Hence the redesign of the Cyclone and all the "more subtle" changes to other units (armored ravager, Tempest changes, Broodlord slight nerf range...).
2. They also want to "buff" the less used units (Raven, Infestors, Battlecruisers...) by giving them light buff here and there. Hopefully, it should be enough to make them usefull again. (Even if Carrier still seems "mehh" to me ^^)
However, i don't understand why nothing is done about the Zealot and the Reaper. Right now those 2 units seem lost in the design space of the game : Zealot has been replaced by the Adept in 95% scenario, and reapers have little use after the early game (use mainly to scout and harass, until your opponent have enough defense to counter it.)
The change to zealot don't seem usefull to me : it provides no boost for the early game, and i feel, in the beginning of the game, players will still choose between Adept (harass potential, ok tank unit, good dps vs light unit) , Stalker (light armored bonus, range, can be micro, blink potential for the mid game) or a mix of the two.
I'm not talking about the Reaper, because honestly, i have no idea how to turn this unit into something usefull for mid/late game. Buffing a fast unit who ignore terrain height can be a recipe for disaster.
Unless i'm completely wrong about Zealots and Reapers, don't you think a little redesign for those 2 units could be helpful ? It would create more choices for Terran and Protoss players early, thus adding (hopefully) new strategy to the game.
I'm throwing ideas here and there, but what about looking into the singleplayer aspect of the game. Like adding 1 or 2 new upgrades to these 2 units based on their respective add-on ? Crazy suggestion, but you will get my point : give base Zealots the charge ability (nerf the ability lightly if needed) and replace the Charge upgrade by a Whirlwind upgrade similar to this one
Well, that's it
This post is more about design than anything else.
I would like to hear your opinions about this.
Honestly, as a SC2 spectator and a gamer who enjoy game design, i would like to ask the Dev Team about this "concern" of me. Unfortunatly, i can't :x
And sorry for my poor english, i'm a french guy
Thank you for reading this. I have recieved some good answers, and i was about to ask this : (basically, a question to the SC2 community) Do you think that slightly changing the zealot and the adept like this would be ok ? : 1. Slighly buff the Zealot tanking ability to make them the early "tanking" unit gateway. 2. Slighly nerf the Adept tanking ability to compensate the Zealot "buff" (which also reflect the adept nature of a "weaker" but higher damage unit) I'm not giving numbers, because again, i have little clue about balance. Thank you
what about stop buffing units and start nerfing?
just nerf the hp of the adept
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what about stop buffing units and start nerfing?
just nerf the hp of the adept
I agree that nerfing is part of the balance, but i'm trying to find a proper balance from a design point of view. Even if you nerf the adept, would you suddenly consider warping Zealots instead of Adept for the early game? (Considering you don't "kill" the adept with some heavy nerf ^^)
I mean, adept is a range unit, with good dps, "ok" tanking ability and the ability to harass with their shade.
The zealot has nothing like that. It's slow, melee range, good damage i suppose, but still a unit that suffer a lot from kiting. The adept looks more versatil overall.
As i said in my previous post, we can toy with the statistics of the unit (less hp, less shield, more armor...) or we can add new ability (we can look at the single player campaign for this)
That's why i'm asking more for a "rebalance" from a design point of view. Turn the zealot into "your early tank unit that can still do ok damage". And slighly nerf the adept to counterbalance this.
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On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport.
This is correct.
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On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport.
Things can always be toned down,but the unit actually has to be well designed and tested out at the higher levels for the correct nerfs/tuning to be given, why don't people understand this?
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On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport.
mass ling too weak against them, just on their own without hellions even? that's not good
On August 18 2016 02:37 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport. Things can always be toned down,but the unit actually has to be well designed and tested out at the higher levels for the correct nerfs/tuning to be given, why don't people understand this?
there's nothing in his post that says he doesn't understand that, he just gives information about the current unit
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Canada16699 Posts
one of the most interesting nuances introduced by these changes is the (+8 bonus to mechanical) on landed viking damage. probes and SCVs are mechanical whereas drones are not. and of course zero zerg units are mechanical.
it'll be really cool to see how landed Vikings get used; specifically in scrappy 10+ minutes slug-fest games where both players are not any where close to pre-planned builds or compositions.
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On August 18 2016 02:40 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport. mass ling to weak against them, just on their own without hellions even? that's not good Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 02:37 Beelzebub1 wrote:On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport. Things can always be toned down,but the unit actually has to be well designed and tested out at the higher levels for the correct nerfs/tuning to be given, why don't people understand this? there's nothing in his post that says he doesn't understand that, he just gives information about the current unit
I like the new Cyclone from a design point of view. It's surprisingly tanky, it's designed to counter armoured units, and it has the ability to Lock On to air targets.
The problem is that it's too expensive to mass produce, and its damage potential is far too powerful. If they tone down the amount of damage the unit does by about 60%, halve the cost of the unit, and perhaps allow Lock On to be autocast once more, it will be a good core Terran Mech unit.
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On August 18 2016 02:58 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 02:40 Penev wrote:On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport. mass ling to weak against them, just on their own without hellions even? that's not good On August 18 2016 02:37 Beelzebub1 wrote:On August 18 2016 01:40 Clbull wrote:
There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport. Things can always be toned down,but the unit actually has to be well designed and tested out at the higher levels for the correct nerfs/tuning to be given, why don't people understand this? there's nothing in his post that says he doesn't understand that, he just gives information about the current unit I like the new Cyclone from a design point of view. It's surprisingly tanky, it's designed to counter armoured units, and it has the ability to Lock On to air targets. The problem is that it's too expensive to mass produce, and its damage potential is far too powerful. If they tone down the amount of damage the unit does by about 60%, halve the cost of the unit, and perhaps allow Lock On to be autocast once more, it will be a good core Terran Mech unit.
Interesting but wouldn't it be better if it's made into an effective AA unit? And do something else with the Thor..
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Canada16699 Posts
On August 18 2016 02:58 Clbull wrote:
(talking Cyclone) The problem is that it's too expensive to mass produce, and its damage potential is far too powerful.
if your assessment is correct then isn't this the exact kind of conflict Blizzard wants to force interesting decision making... kinda like MULE v. Scan.
i like how they allow Cyclones to be reactored. it provides Blizzard lots of ways to nerf the Cyclone including its production rate.
In general , I really like how they went overboard with a lot of these changes. It makes for a very interesting few months as Blizzard massages this mish-mash of crazy units into a proper, competitive RTS.
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id rather see dts have cloak cooldown and in the mid/late game the upgrade does perma cloak with blink
they seem gimmicky early game imo.(you drop mules and lose sometimes) But it could really balance out with this strong late game.
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This is gonna be rough but I am very happy with this patch, big change happen, let's the revolution begin!
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They have to stop buffing every unit. If they continue so than all units will be one hit units in 2 years.
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On August 18 2016 04:36 Dingodile wrote:
They have to stop buffing every unit. If they continue so than all units will be one hit units in 2 years.
most of these changes are to make the unit more useful or change the utility of the unit. The buffs we do see seem to just make the unit be used more, as opposed to rarely being used.
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I think hellion banshee is now a legit opening in all 3 match ups.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Or just make Cyclone (from reactor) require Armory. So it will be spammable mid-late game unit instead of early-mid
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Canada16699 Posts
let's just remove all pretenses and rename the Banshee to the Orca, the Hellion to the Raider Buggy, and the Cyclone to the Pitbull.
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On August 18 2016 06:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
let's just remove all pretenses and rename the Banshee to the Orca, the Hellion to the Raider Buggy, and the Cyclone to the Pitbull.
I fucking wish the Cyclone was nearly as versatile as the Pitbull.
And Terran needs a proper Mammoth Tank.
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The siege tank seems so "right". Is it just me?
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Canada16699 Posts
On August 18 2016 06:39 ihatevideogames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 06:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
let's just remove all pretenses and rename the Banshee to the Orca, the Hellion to the Raider Buggy, and the Cyclone to the Pitbull.
I fucking wish the Cyclone was nearly as versatile as the Pitbull. And Terran needs a proper Mammoth Tank.
This is top secret information that i probably should not even be posting in here...
the secret leader of the Defenders of Man is Kane and he'll be played by Dustin Browder in Part 3 of the Nova mission packs.
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EPT
