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The Swarm Host
The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this. The next few months give us an opportunity to test whether the role is indeed good, so we would like to significantly reduce the cost of the unit so that players are incentivized to use it. Depending on the results of this test, we can determine how to best make further moves accordingly.
Swarm Host Change:
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6.
Why can't they just actually change the unit? Make it anti air or something
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570 Posts
Mech TvZ with the nerfed liberator will be turtling with turrets untill a large number of thors are out.
And even then it can be unwinnable against a large amount of mutas because the thors are so slow and clunky and awkward they will never be able to catch the mutas.
The thors are also not a good answer to broods, again because of their size and clunkiness. Even with the same range, Thors will have trouble shooting at Broods because of how xboxhuge Thors are and how they are cockblocked by broodlings.
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I feel that Blizz is buffing the race that everyone play to get players back. But honestly lots of Terran (not everyone of them ) player are just lazy they want just to play sim city while massing mech, with no scout and map control.
Of course you loose if you go blind expand + tech. Choose one of them.
In plat Terrans are still loosing to photon rush or 4/5 gate when this things are in the game for 5 years.
Protoss do need a nerf vs Terran because every opening is strong vs them. But on the other hand most of the Terrans I play dont even try to do other things than mmm tank liberator and expand everywhere. The ones trying are wining the others not. Where are widow mines, ghost, raven, hellbat ?
My point is lots of terrans are stuck in playing one style, they might come back for some of this changes, but if they dont develop more various opening (various timing, pressure, rythm) , Protoss will still find way to cheese them on ladder.
And they will still leave because they are not having fun
I laugh so hard when I read some terran complaining about having to use tab to use lock on.
Also please stop with the non-sense word gimmick.
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On August 17 2016 23:28 Wohodix wrote:
Also please stop with the non-sense word gimmick.
Thats what it feels like though. They are just picking units that aren't used the way they want and adding stupid abilities to them without thinking how much they actually change the gameplay, hence "gimmick". BC teleporting is a gimmick, DTs teleporting is a gimmick, Infestors now doing it seems gimmicky, the new Tempest ability had about zero thought go into it.
Some of the balancing on current units (changing dmg figures or range, removing Tankivacs etc) will work very well, people aren't complaining about them much. It's the nonsensical additions to the game that are annoying, as it just makes it harder to balance in the future and we don't need them.
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570 Posts
I kinda wanna know what progamers think.
We need a thread dedicated to interviews or tweets progamers did about the balance test map.
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On August 17 2016 23:17 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +The Swarm Host
The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this. The next few months give us an opportunity to test whether the role is indeed good, so we would like to significantly reduce the cost of the unit so that players are incentivized to use it. Depending on the results of this test, we can determine how to best make further moves accordingly.
Swarm Host Change:
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6. Why can't they just actually change the unit? Make it anti air or something
I've been advocating for ages for a swarm host that would spawn scourges and be the core lategame anti air vs skytoss for instance. Would be pretty hard to balance ofc but has a lot of fun potential.
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On August 17 2016 23:55 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2016 23:28 Wohodix wrote:
Also please stop with the non-sense word gimmick.
Thats what it feels like though. They are just picking units that aren't used the way they want and adding stupid abilities to them without thinking how much they actually change the gameplay, hence "gimmick". BC teleporting is a gimmick, DTs teleporting is a gimmick, Infestors now doing it seems gimmicky, the new Tempest ability had about zero thought go into it. Some of the balancing on current units (changing dmg figures or range, removing Tankivacs etc) will work very well, people aren't complaining about them much. It's the nonsensical additions to the game that are annoying, as it just makes it harder to balance in the future and we don't need them.
I agree. It's far harder to see what the solid changes do when you mix them up into a blend of very strange and probably uncalled for things. Blinking DTs, come on.
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On August 18 2016 00:25 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2016 23:17 Penev wrote:The Swarm Host
The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this. The next few months give us an opportunity to test whether the role is indeed good, so we would like to significantly reduce the cost of the unit so that players are incentivized to use it. Depending on the results of this test, we can determine how to best make further moves accordingly.
Swarm Host Change:
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6. Why can't they just actually change the unit? Make it anti air or something I've been advocating for ages for a swarm host that would spawn scourges and be the core lategame anti air vs skytoss for instance. Would be pretty hard to balance ofc but has a lot of fun potential.
Nah free units are bad, blizzard should just completely remove that concept from sc2.
Broodlords are also a lot stronger than they would be because broodlings actually block pathing, etc
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hey blizzard, could we get a new option to prioritize units manually in the game menu?
that way players can custom this usefull thing.
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On August 17 2016 22:19 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2016 22:12 VisionFlare wrote:
The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this.
Did i miss something? I haven't seen SH being used in any of the tournaments i've watched, so this is a serious question. It's that they still think their design could work and people didn't make them because of their cost. Which is both true. The mistake with their SH change was that it left a hole in zerg HotS lategame, not that new SH had terrible design. The cost was also wrong, but they changed it now.
People were complaining that Mutas and other units fulfill that harassment role much better, so now they've made the SH cheaper than Mutas to push for it to be tested.
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On August 18 2016 00:25 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2016 23:17 Penev wrote:The Swarm Host
The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this. The next few months give us an opportunity to test whether the role is indeed good, so we would like to significantly reduce the cost of the unit so that players are incentivized to use it. Depending on the results of this test, we can determine how to best make further moves accordingly.
Swarm Host Change:
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6. Why can't they just actually change the unit? Make it anti air or something I've been advocating for ages for a swarm host that would spawn scourges and be the core lategame anti air vs skytoss for instance. Would be pretty hard to balance ofc but has a lot of fun potential.
So have I, it just seems so obvious and I don't think balancing would necessarily be that problematic either
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Free units are always problematic
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Zerg doesn't need anymore anti air options.
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Quite off the topic, but I`d like to talk about Adepts.
Adept is a badly-designed unit, because it forces its opponents to choose untactical move. I.e., you have no choice but to chase shades, even if you know it`d be canceled.
So, my suggestion is this: just make it impossible to recall,
Edit: Or, at least, Adepts should be unable to attack while using retractable shade.
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Hello.
I have some design questions that i have expressed in this thread, but i was told to post it there, so here i go 
I will copy paste what i have previously post, hope you don't mind the wall of text
+ Show Spoiler +Hello.
I would like to talk about the design changes currently planned for LOTV, specifically the Zealot and the Reaper.
But first, let me "introduce" myself.
I have little knownledge about the duel aspect of Starcraft 2 : i used to play heart of the swarm with a friend, playing 2v2. We managed to reach master, so i'm not a total noob , but again, i have little to no knowledge about 1v1 buld order etc..
I"m talking mostly from a "spectator" point of view, and from a "designer" point of view.
So, now, about the redesign of the game.
From my understanding, the dev team is trying to achieve 2 things :
1. They want to make mech play viable, and by doing so, they need to rebalance many units. Hence the redesign of the Cyclone and all the "more subtle" changes to other units (armored ravager, Tempest changes, Broodlord slight nerf range...).
2. They also want to "buff" the less used units (Raven, Infestors, Battlecruisers...) by giving them light buff here and there. Hopefully, it should be enough to make them usefull again. (Even if Carrier still seems "mehh" to me ^^)
However, i don't understand why nothing is done about the Zealot and the Reaper. Right now those 2 units seem lost in the design space of the game : Zealot has been replaced by the Adept in 95% scenario, and reapers have little use after the early game (use mainly to scout and harass, until your opponent have enough defense to counter it.)
The change to zealot don't seem usefull to me : it provides no boost for the early game, and i feel, in the beginning of the game, players will still choose between Adept (harass potential, ok tank unit, good dps vs light unit) , Stalker (light armored bonus, range, can be micro, blink potential for the mid game) or a mix of the two.
I'm not talking about the Reaper, because honestly, i have no idea how to turn this unit into something usefull for mid/late game. Buffing a fast unit who ignore terrain height can be a recipe for disaster.
Unless i'm completely wrong about Zealots and Reapers, don't you think a little redesign for those 2 units could be helpful ? It would create more choices for Terran and Protoss players early, thus adding (hopefully) new strategy to the game.
I'm throwing ideas here and there, but what about looking into the singleplayer aspect of the game. Like adding 1 or 2 new upgrades to these 2 units based on their respective add-on ? Crazy suggestion, but you will get my point : give base Zealots the charge ability (nerf the ability lightly if needed) and replace the Charge upgrade by a Whirlwind upgrade similar to this one
Well, that's it
This post is more about design than anything else.
I would like to hear your opinions about this.
Honestly, as a SC2 spectator and a gamer who enjoy game design, i would like to ask the Dev Team about this "concern" of me. Unfortunatly, i can't :x
And sorry for my poor english, i'm a french guy
Thank you for reading this.
I have recieved some good answers, and i was about to ask this : (basically, a question to the SC2 community)
Do you think that slightly changing the zealot and the adept like this would be ok ? :
1. Slighly buff the Zealot tanking ability to make them the early "tanking" unit gateway.
2. Slighly nerf the Adept tanking ability to compensate the Zealot "buff" (which also reflect the adept nature of a "weaker" but higher damage unit)
I'm not giving numbers, because again, i have little clue about balance.
Thank you
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On August 18 2016 01:10 mick007 wrote:Hello. I have some design questions that i have expressed in this thread, but i was told to post it there, so here i go I will copy paste what i have previously post, hope you don't mind the wall of text + Show Spoiler +Hello.
I would like to talk about the design changes currently planned for LOTV, specifically the Zealot and the Reaper.
But first, let me "introduce" myself.
I have little knownledge about the duel aspect of Starcraft 2 : i used to play heart of the swarm with a friend, playing 2v2. We managed to reach master, so i'm not a total noob , but again, i have little to no knowledge about 1v1 buld order etc..
I"m talking mostly from a "spectator" point of view, and from a "designer" point of view.
So, now, about the redesign of the game.
From my understanding, the dev team is trying to achieve 2 things :
1. They want to make mech play viable, and by doing so, they need to rebalance many units. Hence the redesign of the Cyclone and all the "more subtle" changes to other units (armored ravager, Tempest changes, Broodlord slight nerf range...).
2. They also want to "buff" the less used units (Raven, Infestors, Battlecruisers...) by giving them light buff here and there. Hopefully, it should be enough to make them usefull again. (Even if Carrier still seems "mehh" to me ^^)
However, i don't understand why nothing is done about the Zealot and the Reaper. Right now those 2 units seem lost in the design space of the game : Zealot has been replaced by the Adept in 95% scenario, and reapers have little use after the early game (use mainly to scout and harass, until your opponent have enough defense to counter it.)
The change to zealot don't seem usefull to me : it provides no boost for the early game, and i feel, in the beginning of the game, players will still choose between Adept (harass potential, ok tank unit, good dps vs light unit) , Stalker (light armored bonus, range, can be micro, blink potential for the mid game) or a mix of the two.
I'm not talking about the Reaper, because honestly, i have no idea how to turn this unit into something usefull for mid/late game. Buffing a fast unit who ignore terrain height can be a recipe for disaster.
Unless i'm completely wrong about Zealots and Reapers, don't you think a little redesign for those 2 units could be helpful ? It would create more choices for Terran and Protoss players early, thus adding (hopefully) new strategy to the game.
I'm throwing ideas here and there, but what about looking into the singleplayer aspect of the game. Like adding 1 or 2 new upgrades to these 2 units based on their respective add-on ? Crazy suggestion, but you will get my point : give base Zealots the charge ability (nerf the ability lightly if needed) and replace the Charge upgrade by a Whirlwind upgrade similar to this one
Well, that's it
This post is more about design than anything else.
I would like to hear your opinions about this.
Honestly, as a SC2 spectator and a gamer who enjoy game design, i would like to ask the Dev Team about this "concern" of me. Unfortunatly, i can't :x
And sorry for my poor english, i'm a french guy
Thank you for reading this. I have recieved some good answers, and i was about to ask this : (basically, a question to the SC2 community) Do you think that slightly changing the zealot and the adept like this would be ok ? : 1. Slighly buff the Zealot tanking ability to make them the early "tanking" unit gateway. 2. Slighly nerf the Adept tanking ability to compensate the Zealot "buff" (which also reflect the adept nature of a "weaker" but higher damage unit) I'm not giving numbers, because again, i have little clue about balance. Thank you
Jokes aside, both. Buff zealot`s health (10 or so) and nerf Adept`s shade.
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Not terribly pumped by the Protoss proposed changes. Seem lackluster and not as interesting or deep as the Terran or Zerg.
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The good changes that will go through and make a positive difference for the game
- Hydralsisk buff with Roach nerf (Hydras better to watch and more responsive to micro also they fucking suck ass in all match ups except ZvP for a small window)
- Tanks being changed back to be being good, this buff will almost certainly warrant Siege Mode eing an upgrade again, tanks just rolling out of the factory with that kind of firepower will be ludicrously OP and make attacking into Terran a bad idea.
- Tempest redesign is so good for the game, this unit is cancer, 15 range units have little place in a RTS in my opinion, theres nothing strategic about it, it forces an immediate all in attack.
- Banshee speed was OP back when they tested it but with buffed Queens and buffed anti - air Hydralisks it MIGHT be okay, anything to reward aggressive mech and not just turtle mech.
The changes that almost without a doubt be a terrible change for the game and should be scrapped
- Blink Dark Templar, there are other ways to make the unit better late game without making it holy shit OP
- Infestor Deep Tunnel sounds broken on paper, would prefer buffed IT's with a more damage Fungal.
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On August 18 2016 00:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Free units are always problematic
they don't have to be free
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There is an instant win TvZ all-in build where you make Reactor Factory at the start and spam Cyclones (and Hellions when you don't have the gas for Cyclones) and just rush your opponent while he's on two bases.
There is nothing that the Zerg player can do to hold it. Mass lings are too weak to kill the Cyclones, Roaches get hard-countered, Spine Crawlers get hard-countered, and a combination of lings, roaches and spines isn't really possible without weaker overall army numbers.
Even if you do survive, you're still on two bases, you likely sacrificed drones to hold, and your Terran opponent is now on two bases, likely producing more Cyclones and Hellions, and is now teching up to his third base and to Starport.
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EPT
