Shawn Holmes wrote an article titled : Why it took me eight years and 300,000 words to say goodbye to World of Warcraft
But it is the subtitle that I think sums up the article better and struck a nerve with me: We wanted to be awesome; World of Warcraft had other plans. What he writes mirrors my experience in SC2, and probably a lot of other SC2 players:
The Blizzard experience was similar, regardless of franchise. If you happened to march your RTS skills onto the Battle.net ladder, you'd experience the wonder of being stomped into a fine paste. This is the bar we've come to expect, it's what Blizzard set out for us to achieve, many moons ago. Playing a Blizzard game meant expecting no hand outs.
Then Blizzard shifted gears; the "no hand-out" mentality had all but dried up behind the blue curtain. Chained attunements only completable by a group of expert players gave way to single-button raiding requiring no such interpersonal dependency or demonstration of proficiency.
Single button... Photon Overcharge anyone? All the skill it took to defend early pushes as Protoss was literally thrown out the window and replaced with a single button skill. Everyone is entitled an expansion SC2 now, in WOL, you had to earn one by being skilled enough to defend it. And I'm just scratching the surface.
The goal of this new mindset was accessibility, but the result was apathy and entitlement. If the early days in WoW are best summarized as "only the elite deserve medals" then the golden age was most certainly "everyone deserves a chance to earn a medal" — a design edict I will go to my grave vehemently defending.
But that isn't how things ended.
By my guild's final days, the message had morphed once more: "everyone deserves a medal." I like to think I did everything I could to keep the guild from hemorrhaging players, but the thrill of competition was gone. My own ideals now worked against me. I'd cultivated a mindset of skill mastery in a game that no longer valued elbow grease.
It was no surprise, then, when players simply stopped showing up for medals.
Maybe this is the reason I've played SC2 so much less, maybe it is the reason why the game is in decline. No one wants a medal that isn't earned through hard work.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
Blizzard wanted to make the game more accessible in the cases of WOW and SC2 so they made the game easier in WOW in some ways (I don't play WOW so I can't comment) and did the same in SC2. In both cases this made the game worse because the games didn't need "elbow grease" anymore to become skilled enough to beat certain raids in WOW or to get to multiple bases in SC2.
That is the similarity. The late game, extreme damage and such was always a problem in SC2. But I used to at least feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to make it there, because a lot people only did all-ins which were very strong and being able to survive those attacks meant you were very good. I learned so much about life and hard work putting the hours in SC2 to get good. You don't need to put those hours in anymore, hand speed is far more important now, and you don't learn nearly as much making your hands faster.
Basically everyone gets there now. So the sense of accomplishment is lost, everyone gets the medal and then you're left with the problematic late game handed to you on silver platter. And I'm thinking that the player numbers have declined for the same reason.
We lost the best part of Starcraft in an effort to make it more accessible.
I can't see how you can say that LOTV seems like the hardest expansion for me. And most of the pro are also saying that if I am not mistaken.
You may have overcharge, but you also have disrupter that are 10 time harder to use then colossus and need a lot of skills to play against, adept are a lot more in design create situation that need a lot more skills then zealot, you have to master doing prison-blink and also playing phoenix, witch can be realy hard.
On the zerg side ravager are a lot more complex then roaches (could hardly be less complex), you need to move your spore against liberator, lings bane muta is still very viable, corrupter now have more interaction then ever before.
Terran, is maybe the only one that have become a little bit easier, mostly against protoss because of the liberator, but even then it create some pretty hard and unforgiving game, where you can check mate your opponent realy quick with them but also lose them realy fast if you let them alone for a second. Other then that tvz seems a lot harder to me at least, because it need way better scouting and more tough, with every tech sitch having to be answer where before pure bio medivack was good vs anythings except like BL, now you need gost and liberator on top of the tanks or the mine.
So ya those were just example, but I realy can't see how sc2 could have become easier, it feel more unforgiving then ever, like a reverse WOW, I mean just the quicker start make it more intense then before. Maybe you are just better then in WOL so it seems easier then it was before?
Oh right, everyone is a pro all of the sudden. It was already back in the days like that: Once someone firstkilled a boss, EVERYONE killed the boss. Of course that boss was too easy than. Just like "SC2 IS TOO EASY!!!". Just like everyone is a Grandmaster. WoW hasnt changed, you are still doing the same stuff. People watch a shitton of guides for bosses to make the game as easy as possible. Remember Decurse? Yeah, people are HARDCORE!!! And where do those "Pro player" earn there Invisible Medals nowadays?
Photon Overcharge is more complex that a single button. Pylons must be made. MC must be in position. MC usually must trigger multiple pylons. MC must be protected. MC must cover the right base, just like in WOL where the army had to cover the right base. Also recall in WOL the play was very 2-base heavy, while in LOTV it tends to be 3/4 base heavy, meaning that in LoTv one must "earn" more expansions.
Not that I'm a big fan of Photon Overcharge. In fact, I hate it. I'm just pointing out some flaws in your argument. Also: comparing team missions of WoW with individual games of SC2 doesn't make a lot of sense. The goal of a team is that the team wins.
Further: "Medals" in SC2 are based on skill. You don't have a team that you're playing with to help you earn medals. You still have to play single player at a high level to win. In fact we are separated into tiers (master, bronze) by skill. Its just the skills in WoW and the skills in are different. Part of the skill in SC2 is using the MC properly, whether we like it or not
On July 02 2016 08:54 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Photon Overcharge is more complex that a single button. Pylons must be made. MC must be in position. MC usually must trigger multiple pylons. MC must be protected. MC must cover the right base, just like in WOL where the army had to cover the right base. Also recall in WOL the play was very 2-base heavy, while in LOTV it tends to be 3/4 base heavy, meaning that in LoTv one must "earn" more expansions.
That is like a League player saying "Auras do take skill! You need to level them up, then you need to make sure you stay in range of the key champions!" Except that League went out of their way to remove them, not because they take no skill, but because there is very little.
The fact players even take 3/4 bases in most games is evidence in itself that you don't need to earn expansions anymore. They are just given and easily defended.
I don't think people who didn't play WOL will understand what I'm talking about, because you don't earn expansions at all in LOTV when compared to WOL. Bases run out of minerals so fast that you can't put nearly as much into your army, which means you can't threaten your opponent as much. Which means the game ends up being more passive. Except now there is new harass tools that keep the action going.
Try defending a third base in WOL as Protoss during the Stephano Roach max era. If you weren't an excellent player, you simply couldn't. It was a skill you acquired over a long period of time.
I'm not saying LOTV doesn't take any skill, it does. But again, instead of the best of the best being only able to do certain things (like hold off a proxy 2 gate in base without scouting), Blizzard has made it accessible for everyone, regardless of player skill.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
The same can be said about SC2.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
That's a completely different problem from the one in the WoW article.
On July 02 2016 10:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This article doesn't apply to SCII. In LotV dying to a bunch of unforgiving cheese is still incredibly common just like in HotS or WoL.
I strongly disagree with that statement. I play either extremely aggressive with cheese, extremely safe, or extremely greedy with hidden bases. The aggressive cheese isn't nearly as strong, and defending is so much easier with Photon Overcharge. I will say that hidden bases are stronger, because not as many people scout hard, because you don't have to scout hard because you can defend easier without scouting. Unfortunately, that isn't a good thing.
But this isn't just about cheese. Try taking a third in WOL as Protoss versus the Stephano Roach max. That took more control, skill and micro that anything in the early/early mid game you do as Protoss in LOTV.
On July 02 2016 10:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This article doesn't apply to SCII. In LotV dying to a bunch of unforgiving cheese is still incredibly common just like in HotS or WoL.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
The same can be said about SC2.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
That's a completely different problem from the one in the WoW article.
As I said, it would be little bit of a stretch for some, but is the same problem, I don't think I've clearly stated it though, let me make it more clear:
Blizzard wanted to make the game more accessible in the cases of WOW and SC2 so they made the game easier in WOW in some ways (I don't play WOW so I can't comment) and did the same in SC2. In both cases this made the game worse because the games didn't need "elbow grease" anymore to become skilled enough to beat certain raids in WOW or to get to multiple bases in SC2.
That is the similarity. The late game, extreme damage and such was always a problem in SC2. But I used to at least feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to make it there, because a lot people only did all-ins which were very strong and being able to survive those attacks meant you were very good. I learned so much about life and hard work putting the hours in SC2 to get good. You don't need to put those hours in anymore, hand speed is far more important now, and you don't learn nearly as much making your hands faster.
Basically everyone gets there now. So the sense of accomplishment is lost, everyone gets the medal and then you're left with the problematic late game handed to you on silver platter. And I'm thinking that the player numbers have declined for the same reason.
We lost the best part of Starcraft in an effort to make it more accessible.
You want elbow grease in SC2 go back to BW! Real skill game where you can only click on 1 building and 12 units so you have to switch hotkeys frequently and have to remember all of them as you fluidly control your army. Kids these days...
Change SC2 to LOTV and BW to WoL That's your logic. The same stupid logic that kept macro mechanics in LOTV(bc they're skills xD) and made the game fast paced af.
Face it. You're just an old guy yelling at fast trains. Before you it was some BW oldbies flaunting a bunch of elitism.
I'm not like the BW elitists for two reasons. First, because SC2 wasn't really about hand speed before. Sure it was important, but I've always been a slow low APM player. And the comparison also is wrong because BW people hated SC2 for the same reasons I loved it. I could "trick" a mechanically better player. Thinking and evolving mattered more in SC2, while in BW we saw the same people winning over and over because mechanics was the most important thing. I was mechanically inferior to every big name I beat, but I won because SC2 wasn't just as much of a mechanical game as BW.
I spent so much time learning different builds, carefully studying maps, becoming mentally stronger ect that SC2 taught me so much about life. I can't thank it enough. But new players won't get as much of that, because it is about hand speed now. Everyone gets to the late game, and because of it, mechanics takes over. It is more BW like.
And BW became more popular the older it got. Long after its release did it peak. I didn't really play BW so I can't tell you why exactly, but I can tell you good games that people enjoy do this.
Do you really think LOTV is going to do the same? Incontrol was talking about how hard it was to make a living in SC2 just yesterday on his stream.
What was great was the early game, and that is why the peak was in 2011. The same micro opportunities and choices available there should have been (should be) replicated in the late game. Instead we got big, expensive, incredibly powerful slow A-move units that whoever built more of wins (Colossus wars anyone?).
And what matters most in the "whoever built more of" wins games? Mechanics.
This is actually a sad thread because people keep bringing in arguments from other threads to refute my argument, but my argument is unique. Take the time to try and understand it before get more arguments like the "he wants BW back" regurgitated all over this thread.
The best part of SC2 for me wasn't the mechanics, it was that it required hard work in order to become good in the sense that you needed to study maps, needed to scout hard, needed to understand what your opponent could be doing.
You don't need that anymore. Photon Overcharge defends everything (except cloaked units) early so everyone gets the 2nd and 3rd base. It doesn't matter if a Bane bust, 4 Gate, a Hellion drop or a Banshee is coming, I click on MSC and Overcharge my Pylons. In WOL, those very different scenarios would have prompted extremely different responses.
So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time?
2010-11 early game had some of the worst shit ever early game, but hey don't worry I am sure you can nidus all in, 3 rax reaper and mass adept your way to victory even now.
The popularity of the game then and now has barely anything to do with quality (if anythings BL-infestor shit was the things that hurt it the most), it is just the passage of time. Game sales number have never been a good representation of the quality of a game.
On July 02 2016 10:30 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm not like the BW elitists for two reasons. First, because SC2 wasn't really about hand speed before. Sure it was important, but I've always been a slow low APM player. And the comparison also is wrong because BW people hated SC2 for the same reasons I loved it. I could "trick" a mechanically better player. Thinking and evolving mattered more in SC2, while in BW we saw the same people winning over and over because mechanics was the most important thing. I was mechanically inferior to every big name I beat, but I won because SC2 wasn't just as much of a mechanical game as BW.
I spent so much time learning different builds, carefully studying maps, becoming mentally stronger ect that SC2 taught me so much about life. I can't thank it enough. But new players won't get as much of that, because it is about hand speed now. Everyone gets to the late game, and because of it, mechanics takes over. It is more BW like.
And BW became more popular the older it got. Long after its release did it peak. I didn't really play BW so I can't tell you why exactly, but I can tell you good games that people enjoy do this.
Do you really think LOTV is going to do the same? Incontrol was talking about how hard it was to make a living in SC2 just yesterday on his stream.
What was great was the early game, and that is why the peak was in 2011. The same micro opportunities and choices available there should have been (should be) replicated in the late game. Instead we got big, expensive slow A-move units that whoever built more of wins.
And what matters most in the whoever built more of wins games? Mechanics.
This is actually a sad thread because people keep bring in arguments from other threads to refute my argument, but my argument is unique. Take the time to try and understand it before get more arguments like the "he wants BW back" regurgitated all over this thread
What was great was that RTS was actually popular way back when. I played BW from the day I could hold a keyboard and mouse, which happened to be back in 2003. I scaled over to SC2 in 2012 with the rest of them and I can say that WoL had a shit concept- it tried to be BW and it wasn't. LOTV is finally getting the idea right and is actually trying to be a different game while keeping some good ideas, but its just failing miserably.
I love the fact how you brought up "tricking" because that's exactly what you- as well as the blogger- are complaining about. Ex) The same achievements/ raid gear in WoW have grown significantly easier now, due to the addition/removal of some content. Ex) its much easier to play the game in SC2 because the players can transition out of the early game so much easily. Well actually, you make less sense because you seem to love the idea of being able to abuse easier mechanics intoduced in WoL, while at the same time hating whatever changed over the course of 2 expansions. At least the blogger has stuck around since the beginning of the whole thing.
You know what the most stupid thing BW elitists say is? "In BW, you can tell the difference in skill just by observing the way the players split their first 4 workers." And you know what? It is skill. Its just really meaningless. Just like the way the WoW guy feels his hardcore raiding skills have become meaningless. And just like the way you feel LOTV has somehow become easier because you think the really stupid early game is actually bypassed for some reason.
Not a fan of PO and I feel that Blizz could have solved the forced 3 gate expand vs Z another way, but my agreeing with your article doesn't change the fact you are just another newbie complaining about players more new than you.
Edit) Thinking on it more, just the fact that SC2 starters can now think they are oldbies just makes me laugh xD Reminds me of a bunch of Pandaria starters i met the other day who thought they were oldbies hahaha
This is soooo true. Blizzard gained a huge population of players after they made wow. And they were not true gamers who look for a challenge, they want to feel accomplishment even when they lose. This turned wow into a great mmo masterpiece into a game where every big patch came with a crutch to get you through older content. Starcraft has hit that to an extent. They still want to keep starcraft a game where skill is important. But world of warcraft has definently. This video is somewhat about this sort of thing happening to games.
Its called "The Noob Effect" and its been real for a few years now.
On July 02 2016 10:42 Nakajin wrote: So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time?
Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right?
I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale.
At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion with Broodlord-Infestor.
But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good!
On July 02 2016 10:57 BronzeKnee wrote: Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right?
I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale.
At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion.
But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good!
And now we are left with a game where the early and mid game are rushed through in the name of accessibility. Is it any wonder SC2 is declining?
Stop drowning yourself in nostalgia and sober up. You're just watching old videos of good games and starting to think that those was the only kinds of games that ever existed in WoL.
You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
They're just not comparable, Starcraft 2's still a very difficult game and some changes have raised the skill cap whilst others have lowered it (you really only cite overcharge). BW was even more hardcore but part of the reason SC2 is unpopular is precisely because of the 'elbow grease' required in an RTS compared to adequately controlling a single moba hero or an RPG character. Everyone does not get a medal in SC2 and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. The meta has changed from 1 base to multiple bases but the game is still very difficult in comparison to most games. You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes.
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did
EPT
