On July 02 2016 17:31 Teoita wrote: You are playing less because SC2 is a 6 year old hardcore competitive game and it's very, very hard to keep playing with the same enjoyment over such a long time. Period.
I am sick and tired of the ipocrisy of some posters in this forum, it's absolutely absurd. Early WoL, when you "had to fight for your expansion with skill", was a one base cheesefest where a lot of the time a player won simply because he happened to get lucky with the spawn positions or map (close by ground Metalopolis vs Zerg, hello!). PvP was absolutely fucking unbearable, especially on maps like Tal'darim Altar or Bel'shir Beach. People fucking HATED cheeses and all-ins, we all hated blistering fucking sands, the 111 on Xel'naga Caverns (im sure you LOVED playing those games), having to soultrain zergs or die trying...i could name more. Everyone was claiming for macro games and macro maps that blizzard wasn't providing, that's why TLMC was born in the first place.
More people than today were watching and cheering because we Starcraft players were the first ones to truly make competitive gaming huge. BW, WC3, CS and Quake all came before SC2, but they never had the massive explosion SC2 had. We all had that feeling that something new and awesome was starting, and it was great to be part of it. Today i feel like people tend to cheer more for the game or players themselves, rather than for the sheer enthusiasm and novelty of it, and that's fine.
Quoted for truth. We have a great ability to forget the bad things we had in the past and instead focus only on the good things. If I have learnt anything in these last 6 years, it is that this community doesn't even know what it wants and I can understand why Blizzard ignores us.
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Well you are completely right. But it is the exact same thing that BW "elitist" always have said about the transition from bw to sc2. Your argument is basically that there is no depth in the game since you can defend everything with the over charge, so the skill and strategic possibilities of the defender is taken away in order to make the game more accessible. We who came from bw felt that all the depth was taken from the game in sc2. It is best described, still, by Lalush in this video:
For example, in bw the mutas could be stacked by using a mineral patch, an owerlord or a trapped drone, then they could attack with patrol micro or the "chinese triangle" micro etc. depending on how skilled you were. in sc2 they can only attack or not attack (as far as I can see). rip Jaedong mutas....
On July 02 2016 17:31 Teoita wrote: You are playing less because SC2 is a 6 year old hardcore competitive game and it's very, very hard to keep playing with the same enjoyment over such a long time. Period.
I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of some posters in this forum, it's absolutely absurd. Early WoL, when you "had to fight for your expansion with skill", was a one base cheesefest where a lot of the time a player won simply because he happened to get lucky with the spawn positions or map (close by ground Metalopolis vs Zerg, hello!). PvP was absolutely fucking unbearable, especially on maps like Tal'darim Altar or Bel'shir Beach. People fucking HATED cheeses and all-ins, we all hated blistering fucking sands, the 111 on Xel'naga Caverns (im sure you LOVED playing those games), having to soultrain zergs or die trying...i could name more. Everyone was claiming for macro games and macro maps that blizzard wasn't providing, that's why TLMC was born in the first place.
More people than today were watching and cheering because we Starcraft players were the first ones to truly make competitive gaming huge. BW, WC3, CS and Quake all came before SC2, but they never had the massive explosion SC2 had. We all had that feeling that something new and awesome was starting, and it was great to be part of it. Today i feel like people tend to cheer more for the game or players themselves, rather than for the sheer enthusiasm and novelty of it, and that's fine.
For the record, the author of that article is an idiot. The game was much, much easier in BC and Vanilla than it is today, it just took a LOT longer to get things because of how long normal/heroic dungeons were, how long it took to get 40 man raids going, and how long it took to gear up and get attuned. Go play a warlock back in BC, it's literally Curse of Doom once a minute and spam shadowbolt the rest of the fight. Nothing else. At least there's a real rotation to all 3 Warlock specs now, and demo is even extremely difficult to maximize, all while dealing with bosses that have 10x more difficult mechanics than old bosses ever did.
The problem is, as it is with SC2: We learned. The game got exponentially harder, but we learned faster. WoW raiders have gotten used to virtually every type of mechanic that it's feasible to throw at them. We spent years learning our class rotations and we're used to the subtle changes between expansions by now. The simple problem is that the average player has much more support via 3rd party websites and in-game tutorials than they ever did, so learning and picking up the game is easy and quick because it's so similar to things that people have been playing for years now as opposed to being revolutionary.
When WoL was young, even the pros didn't always know the best strategies, everything was evolving and there were new and innovative ways to do things. Now, so much has been tried and perfected that for the most part everyone knows what to expect out of any given matchup and every tight build order and its permutations have been explored. I'm sure there's still more to discover, but far less than when the game was fresh. We have so many 3rd party sites, so many resources at TL, and so much professional tape to watch that the strategy part of the real-time-strategy game has all but evaporated. The only difference between WoW and SC2 in that regard is that the latter has a much, much higher mechanical skill requirement, which turns off a lot of the more casual players.
It's just the lifecycle of a competitive game. You don't really see all too many new and innovative football or basketball plays either, it's all mechanical outplay within a rigid system.
I remember playing WoL it was so damn hard to survive the early game, specially with Protoss and Zerg (Prep Queen Buff).
At that time I think HuK was AWESOME, remember 3 Gate Sentry Expand? Defending and pushing while expanding? THAT was SKILL, right now I see free expas everywhere and easy defenses, as well harass... before it was what? Banshee, Hellion Drop, Darkies, Mutas, Phoenix, Blinkstlkrs... and right now anything can be thrown and worse... Spores without Evo Chamber as req... buffed Queens, Photon Over on Pylons... wich you always have and need, and T1.5 FLYING UNIT.
Then the Widow Mines which can be 1 shot trick like Disruptors, Blizz got at some point where instead nerfing things to tune them properly, they simply buffed others and others as a chain effect making a real mess at the end.
The skills LotV requires to win a game are more difficult to master than WoL.
Opponents predictably playing aggressive early game is not that hard to deal with in general (Let's put aside when zerg was unable to scout). The challenge is hammering out a solid build order and then executing it, but once you've done that you're getting practically free wins from that point forward against every opponent who does the thing you know how to do deal with.
LotV, though it often bypasses that part of the game completely, gets you engaged in much more challenging aspects of the game. I think some people are turned off by this because they don't know how to engage in these aspects of the game. They see the things that they used to know how to improve at are now de-emphasized and they just kinda play games out not knowing exactly how to improve game-to-game.
Two of the hardest skills in the game are multitasking and scout then react. If you and your opponent both kind of float toward mid-late game, then the game is a completely open slate where you are faced with SO many decisions and opportunities to build an advantage. It's not something simple and obvious that you can write a script for, like the WoL 4gate rush. It's much more complex. Being able to scout then react is for the more strategically-minded players. Engaging in action on multiple fronts is for the more mechanically-inclined players. They're both important and both difficult to do well.
And I know other people have said it, but I'll just say it again as someone who played in both eras of WoW: Competitive raiding has only gotten more difficult and more hardcore (issues of managing 40 man roster aside). They've also managed to make it easier for the most casual players to experience raiding as well. Anyone on the spectrum in between also has a place as a handicap of better gear naturally builds up when a guild is progressing slowly.
If LotV really did make the game more accessible to the casual players, and more challenging for pro players, then I wonder if the interesting question is how many players in the middle have been "left behind" by SC2's identity change?
On July 02 2016 23:12 NonY wrote: The skills LotV requires to win a game are more difficult to master than WoL.
Opponents predictably playing aggressive early game is not that hard to deal with in general (Let's put aside when zerg was unable to scout). The challenge is hammering out a solid build order and then executing it, but once you've done that you're getting practically free wins from that point forward against every opponent who does the thing you know how to do deal with.
LotV, though it often bypasses that part of the game completely, gets you engaged in much more challenging aspects of the game. I think some people are turned off by this because they don't know how to engage in these aspects of the game. They see the things that they used to know how to improve at are now de-emphasized and they just kinda play games out not knowing exactly how to improve game-to-game.
Two of the hardest skills in the game are multitasking and scout then react. If you and your opponent both kind of float toward mid-late game, then the game is a completely open slate where you are faced with SO many decisions and opportunities to build an advantage. It's not something simple and obvious that you can write a script for, like the WoL 4gate rush. It's much more complex. Being able to scout then react is for the more strategically-minded players. Engaging in action on multiple fronts is for the more mechanically-inclined players. They're both important and both difficult to do well.
And I know other people have said it, but I'll just say it again as someone who played in both eras of WoW: Competitive raiding has only gotten more difficult and more hardcore (issues of managing 40 man roster aside). They've also managed to make it easier for the most casual players to experience raiding as well. Anyone on the spectrum in between also has a place as a handicap of better gear naturally builds up when a guild is progressing slowly.
If LotV really did make the game more accessible to the casual players, and more challenging for pro players, then I wonder if the interesting question is how many players in the middle have been "left behind" by SC2's identity change?
People often say BW is so much more demanding mechanically, but how would you compare it to LotV?
I don't play sc2 anymore, but I played a lot back in the day. I think the comparison you make is off.
LOTV still has the highest skill ceiling of any game I've ever played. It is nearly impossible for newcomers to get into the competitive scene because they are so far behind the curve on what mechanics are and never mind the current meta.
I think a much fairer comparison is D3 to WOW. I mean, they are basically the same games, but to me they both reward mindless clicking with drops. It's like playing a slot machine, you pull the handle over and over again (never really have to worry about dying and if you do you are never punished for it) until you hit a jackpot... Then you fucking do it again. That is some mindless shit, and that is what the article refers to. Mindless grinding to get better gear, and can beat the next boss based on the gear you have not the skill you need to beat them.
That's why I just can't play D3, I don't see the point. I join a team, and get carried by someone that put in more hours than me. All the enemies on the screen blow up before I even see them, and you are punished for solo play... There is just no challenge. If you put in the requisite hours you will get the better gear, and to beat higher levels all you need is the better gear. It's just a time sink, and whoever sinks more time has the better character.
I think it is possible to say that LOTV is harder or easier, you can make both arguments... but in no way can you say it's mindless like WOW or D3. Those games aren't a test of skill as much as a test of how much time you will put in. No strategy, just mindless clicking until you get the drop reward.
It is way to far stretched opinion. Giving up to one button raids? Mythic (and to a much less extent Heroic) raids still require MASSIVE amount of dedication, skill, teamwork and personal sacrifice, yes they streamlined a lot of things, like much much easier raid preparation and consumables, but the key spirit of MMO raiding is still there, and the raids today are much, much harder than vanilla/BC days. There are tons of problems with WoW right now but accessibility is not one of them.
EPT
