Shawn Holmes wrote an article titled : Why it took me eight years and 300,000 words to say goodbye to World of Warcraft
But it is the subtitle that I think sums up the article better and struck a nerve with me: We wanted to be awesome; World of Warcraft had other plans. What he writes mirrors my experience in SC2, and probably a lot of other SC2 players:
The Blizzard experience was similar, regardless of franchise. If you happened to march your RTS skills onto the Battle.net ladder, you'd experience the wonder of being stomped into a fine paste. This is the bar we've come to expect, it's what Blizzard set out for us to achieve, many moons ago. Playing a Blizzard game meant expecting no hand outs.
Then Blizzard shifted gears; the "no hand-out" mentality had all but dried up behind the blue curtain. Chained attunements only completable by a group of expert players gave way to single-button raiding requiring no such interpersonal dependency or demonstration of proficiency.
Single button... Photon Overcharge anyone? All the skill it took to defend early pushes as Protoss was literally thrown out the window and replaced with a single button skill. Everyone is entitled an expansion SC2 now, in WOL, you had to earn one by being skilled enough to defend it. And I'm just scratching the surface.
The goal of this new mindset was accessibility, but the result was apathy and entitlement. If the early days in WoW are best summarized as "only the elite deserve medals" then the golden age was most certainly "everyone deserves a chance to earn a medal" — a design edict I will go to my grave vehemently defending.
But that isn't how things ended.
By my guild's final days, the message had morphed once more: "everyone deserves a medal." I like to think I did everything I could to keep the guild from hemorrhaging players, but the thrill of competition was gone. My own ideals now worked against me. I'd cultivated a mindset of skill mastery in a game that no longer valued elbow grease.
It was no surprise, then, when players simply stopped showing up for medals.
Maybe this is the reason I've played SC2 so much less, maybe it is the reason why the game is in decline. No one wants a medal that isn't earned through hard work.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
Blizzard wanted to make the game more accessible in the cases of WOW and SC2 so they made the game easier in WOW in some ways (I don't play WOW so I can't comment) and did the same in SC2. In both cases this made the game worse because the games didn't need "elbow grease" anymore to become skilled enough to beat certain raids in WOW or to get to multiple bases in SC2.
That is the similarity. The late game, extreme damage and such was always a problem in SC2. But I used to at least feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to make it there, because a lot people only did all-ins which were very strong and being able to survive those attacks meant you were very good. I learned so much about life and hard work putting the hours in SC2 to get good. You don't need to put those hours in anymore, hand speed is far more important now, and you don't learn nearly as much making your hands faster.
Basically everyone gets there now. So the sense of accomplishment is lost, everyone gets the medal and then you're left with the problematic late game handed to you on silver platter. And I'm thinking that the player numbers have declined for the same reason.
We lost the best part of Starcraft in an effort to make it more accessible.
I can't see how you can say that LOTV seems like the hardest expansion for me. And most of the pro are also saying that if I am not mistaken.
You may have overcharge, but you also have disrupter that are 10 time harder to use then colossus and need a lot of skills to play against, adept are a lot more in design create situation that need a lot more skills then zealot, you have to master doing prison-blink and also playing phoenix, witch can be realy hard.
On the zerg side ravager are a lot more complex then roaches (could hardly be less complex), you need to move your spore against liberator, lings bane muta is still very viable, corrupter now have more interaction then ever before.
Terran, is maybe the only one that have become a little bit easier, mostly against protoss because of the liberator, but even then it create some pretty hard and unforgiving game, where you can check mate your opponent realy quick with them but also lose them realy fast if you let them alone for a second. Other then that tvz seems a lot harder to me at least, because it need way better scouting and more tough, with every tech sitch having to be answer where before pure bio medivack was good vs anythings except like BL, now you need gost and liberator on top of the tanks or the mine.
So ya those were just example, but I realy can't see how sc2 could have become easier, it feel more unforgiving then ever, like a reverse WOW, I mean just the quicker start make it more intense then before. Maybe you are just better then in WOL so it seems easier then it was before?
Oh right, everyone is a pro all of the sudden. It was already back in the days like that: Once someone firstkilled a boss, EVERYONE killed the boss. Of course that boss was too easy than. Just like "SC2 IS TOO EASY!!!". Just like everyone is a Grandmaster. WoW hasnt changed, you are still doing the same stuff. People watch a shitton of guides for bosses to make the game as easy as possible. Remember Decurse? Yeah, people are HARDCORE!!! And where do those "Pro player" earn there Invisible Medals nowadays?
Photon Overcharge is more complex that a single button. Pylons must be made. MC must be in position. MC usually must trigger multiple pylons. MC must be protected. MC must cover the right base, just like in WOL where the army had to cover the right base. Also recall in WOL the play was very 2-base heavy, while in LOTV it tends to be 3/4 base heavy, meaning that in LoTv one must "earn" more expansions.
Not that I'm a big fan of Photon Overcharge. In fact, I hate it. I'm just pointing out some flaws in your argument. Also: comparing team missions of WoW with individual games of SC2 doesn't make a lot of sense. The goal of a team is that the team wins.
Further: "Medals" in SC2 are based on skill. You don't have a team that you're playing with to help you earn medals. You still have to play single player at a high level to win. In fact we are separated into tiers (master, bronze) by skill. Its just the skills in WoW and the skills in are different. Part of the skill in SC2 is using the MC properly, whether we like it or not
On July 02 2016 08:54 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Photon Overcharge is more complex that a single button. Pylons must be made. MC must be in position. MC usually must trigger multiple pylons. MC must be protected. MC must cover the right base, just like in WOL where the army had to cover the right base. Also recall in WOL the play was very 2-base heavy, while in LOTV it tends to be 3/4 base heavy, meaning that in LoTv one must "earn" more expansions.
That is like a League player saying "Auras do take skill! You need to level them up, then you need to make sure you stay in range of the key champions!" Except that League went out of their way to remove them, not because they take no skill, but because there is very little.
The fact players even take 3/4 bases in most games is evidence in itself that you don't need to earn expansions anymore. They are just given and easily defended.
I don't think people who didn't play WOL will understand what I'm talking about, because you don't earn expansions at all in LOTV when compared to WOL. Bases run out of minerals so fast that you can't put nearly as much into your army, which means you can't threaten your opponent as much. Which means the game ends up being more passive. Except now there is new harass tools that keep the action going.
Try defending a third base in WOL as Protoss during the Stephano Roach max era. If you weren't an excellent player, you simply couldn't. It was a skill you acquired over a long period of time.
I'm not saying LOTV doesn't take any skill, it does. But again, instead of the best of the best being only able to do certain things (like hold off a proxy 2 gate in base without scouting), Blizzard has made it accessible for everyone, regardless of player skill.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
The same can be said about SC2.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
That's a completely different problem from the one in the WoW article.
On July 02 2016 10:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This article doesn't apply to SCII. In LotV dying to a bunch of unforgiving cheese is still incredibly common just like in HotS or WoL.
I strongly disagree with that statement. I play either extremely aggressive with cheese, extremely safe, or extremely greedy with hidden bases. The aggressive cheese isn't nearly as strong, and defending is so much easier with Photon Overcharge. I will say that hidden bases are stronger, because not as many people scout hard, because you don't have to scout hard because you can defend easier without scouting. Unfortunately, that isn't a good thing.
But this isn't just about cheese. Try taking a third in WOL as Protoss versus the Stephano Roach max. That took more control, skill and micro that anything in the early/early mid game you do as Protoss in LOTV.
On July 02 2016 10:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This article doesn't apply to SCII. In LotV dying to a bunch of unforgiving cheese is still incredibly common just like in HotS or WoL.
On July 02 2016 09:47 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Nope not seeing the comparison.
Perhaps I made it seem like Starcraft was worse because it was too easy, it isn't easy and that wasn't my point. My point was that Starcraft was worse because there is less opportunity to show skill. Surely LOTV is harder because it is faster, but like TheDwf has pointed out, speed Chess is harder to because it is faster, but it forces people into sloppy mistakes and isn't the beautiful game of Chess people love. LOTV is otherwise easier.
The same can be said about SC2.
On July 02 2016 09:58 Railgan wrote: In what world is Starcraft too easy?
I figured it would be a stretch for some people. The early game was really pronounced in WOL, and honestly, when SC2 was at its height it was because of the early game. The armies weren't massive and the unit compositions didn't do extreme damage, there was a lot of opportunities for micro and such, way beyond the current Reaper/Adept/Ling micro stuff that dominates early game harass now.
It took so much skill just to get out of the early game, that a lot of time people didn't make it out. Now everyone gets a free ride to the mid-late game, where the game is worse. Extreme damage cuts into the the ability to control armies, removing opportunities for skill.
That's a completely different problem from the one in the WoW article.
As I said, it would be little bit of a stretch for some, but is the same problem, I don't think I've clearly stated it though, let me make it more clear:
Blizzard wanted to make the game more accessible in the cases of WOW and SC2 so they made the game easier in WOW in some ways (I don't play WOW so I can't comment) and did the same in SC2. In both cases this made the game worse because the games didn't need "elbow grease" anymore to become skilled enough to beat certain raids in WOW or to get to multiple bases in SC2.
That is the similarity. The late game, extreme damage and such was always a problem in SC2. But I used to at least feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to make it there, because a lot people only did all-ins which were very strong and being able to survive those attacks meant you were very good. I learned so much about life and hard work putting the hours in SC2 to get good. You don't need to put those hours in anymore, hand speed is far more important now, and you don't learn nearly as much making your hands faster.
Basically everyone gets there now. So the sense of accomplishment is lost, everyone gets the medal and then you're left with the problematic late game handed to you on silver platter. And I'm thinking that the player numbers have declined for the same reason.
We lost the best part of Starcraft in an effort to make it more accessible.
You want elbow grease in SC2 go back to BW! Real skill game where you can only click on 1 building and 12 units so you have to switch hotkeys frequently and have to remember all of them as you fluidly control your army. Kids these days...
Change SC2 to LOTV and BW to WoL That's your logic. The same stupid logic that kept macro mechanics in LOTV(bc they're skills xD) and made the game fast paced af.
Face it. You're just an old guy yelling at fast trains. Before you it was some BW oldbies flaunting a bunch of elitism.
I'm not like the BW elitists for two reasons. First, because SC2 wasn't really about hand speed before. Sure it was important, but I've always been a slow low APM player. And the comparison also is wrong because BW people hated SC2 for the same reasons I loved it. I could "trick" a mechanically better player. Thinking and evolving mattered more in SC2, while in BW we saw the same people winning over and over because mechanics was the most important thing. I was mechanically inferior to every big name I beat, but I won because SC2 wasn't just as much of a mechanical game as BW.
I spent so much time learning different builds, carefully studying maps, becoming mentally stronger ect that SC2 taught me so much about life. I can't thank it enough. But new players won't get as much of that, because it is about hand speed now. Everyone gets to the late game, and because of it, mechanics takes over. It is more BW like.
And BW became more popular the older it got. Long after its release did it peak. I didn't really play BW so I can't tell you why exactly, but I can tell you good games that people enjoy do this.
Do you really think LOTV is going to do the same? Incontrol was talking about how hard it was to make a living in SC2 just yesterday on his stream.
What was great was the early game, and that is why the peak was in 2011. The same micro opportunities and choices available there should have been (should be) replicated in the late game. Instead we got big, expensive, incredibly powerful slow A-move units that whoever built more of wins (Colossus wars anyone?).
And what matters most in the "whoever built more of" wins games? Mechanics.
This is actually a sad thread because people keep bringing in arguments from other threads to refute my argument, but my argument is unique. Take the time to try and understand it before get more arguments like the "he wants BW back" regurgitated all over this thread.
The best part of SC2 for me wasn't the mechanics, it was that it required hard work in order to become good in the sense that you needed to study maps, needed to scout hard, needed to understand what your opponent could be doing.
You don't need that anymore. Photon Overcharge defends everything (except cloaked units) early so everyone gets the 2nd and 3rd base. It doesn't matter if a Bane bust, 4 Gate, a Hellion drop or a Banshee is coming, I click on MSC and Overcharge my Pylons. In WOL, those very different scenarios would have prompted extremely different responses.
So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time?
2010-11 early game had some of the worst shit ever early game, but hey don't worry I am sure you can nidus all in, 3 rax reaper and mass adept your way to victory even now.
The popularity of the game then and now has barely anything to do with quality (if anythings BL-infestor shit was the things that hurt it the most), it is just the passage of time. Game sales number have never been a good representation of the quality of a game.
On July 02 2016 10:30 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm not like the BW elitists for two reasons. First, because SC2 wasn't really about hand speed before. Sure it was important, but I've always been a slow low APM player. And the comparison also is wrong because BW people hated SC2 for the same reasons I loved it. I could "trick" a mechanically better player. Thinking and evolving mattered more in SC2, while in BW we saw the same people winning over and over because mechanics was the most important thing. I was mechanically inferior to every big name I beat, but I won because SC2 wasn't just as much of a mechanical game as BW.
I spent so much time learning different builds, carefully studying maps, becoming mentally stronger ect that SC2 taught me so much about life. I can't thank it enough. But new players won't get as much of that, because it is about hand speed now. Everyone gets to the late game, and because of it, mechanics takes over. It is more BW like.
And BW became more popular the older it got. Long after its release did it peak. I didn't really play BW so I can't tell you why exactly, but I can tell you good games that people enjoy do this.
Do you really think LOTV is going to do the same? Incontrol was talking about how hard it was to make a living in SC2 just yesterday on his stream.
What was great was the early game, and that is why the peak was in 2011. The same micro opportunities and choices available there should have been (should be) replicated in the late game. Instead we got big, expensive slow A-move units that whoever built more of wins.
And what matters most in the whoever built more of wins games? Mechanics.
This is actually a sad thread because people keep bring in arguments from other threads to refute my argument, but my argument is unique. Take the time to try and understand it before get more arguments like the "he wants BW back" regurgitated all over this thread
What was great was that RTS was actually popular way back when. I played BW from the day I could hold a keyboard and mouse, which happened to be back in 2003. I scaled over to SC2 in 2012 with the rest of them and I can say that WoL had a shit concept- it tried to be BW and it wasn't. LOTV is finally getting the idea right and is actually trying to be a different game while keeping some good ideas, but its just failing miserably.
I love the fact how you brought up "tricking" because that's exactly what you- as well as the blogger- are complaining about. Ex) The same achievements/ raid gear in WoW have grown significantly easier now, due to the addition/removal of some content. Ex) its much easier to play the game in SC2 because the players can transition out of the early game so much easily. Well actually, you make less sense because you seem to love the idea of being able to abuse easier mechanics intoduced in WoL, while at the same time hating whatever changed over the course of 2 expansions. At least the blogger has stuck around since the beginning of the whole thing.
You know what the most stupid thing BW elitists say is? "In BW, you can tell the difference in skill just by observing the way the players split their first 4 workers." And you know what? It is skill. Its just really meaningless. Just like the way the WoW guy feels his hardcore raiding skills have become meaningless. And just like the way you feel LOTV has somehow become easier because you think the really stupid early game is actually bypassed for some reason.
Not a fan of PO and I feel that Blizz could have solved the forced 3 gate expand vs Z another way, but my agreeing with your article doesn't change the fact you are just another newbie complaining about players more new than you.
Edit) Thinking on it more, just the fact that SC2 starters can now think they are oldbies just makes me laugh xD Reminds me of a bunch of Pandaria starters i met the other day who thought they were oldbies hahaha
This is soooo true. Blizzard gained a huge population of players after they made wow. And they were not true gamers who look for a challenge, they want to feel accomplishment even when they lose. This turned wow into a great mmo masterpiece into a game where every big patch came with a crutch to get you through older content. Starcraft has hit that to an extent. They still want to keep starcraft a game where skill is important. But world of warcraft has definently. This video is somewhat about this sort of thing happening to games.
Its called "The Noob Effect" and its been real for a few years now.
On July 02 2016 10:42 Nakajin wrote: So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time?
Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right?
I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale.
At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion with Broodlord-Infestor.
But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good!
On July 02 2016 10:57 BronzeKnee wrote: Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right?
I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale.
At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion.
But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good!
And now we are left with a game where the early and mid game are rushed through in the name of accessibility. Is it any wonder SC2 is declining?
Stop drowning yourself in nostalgia and sober up. You're just watching old videos of good games and starting to think that those was the only kinds of games that ever existed in WoL.
You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
They're just not comparable, Starcraft 2's still a very difficult game and some changes have raised the skill cap whilst others have lowered it (you really only cite overcharge). BW was even more hardcore but part of the reason SC2 is unpopular is precisely because of the 'elbow grease' required in an RTS compared to adequately controlling a single moba hero or an RPG character. Everyone does not get a medal in SC2 and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. The meta has changed from 1 base to multiple bases but the game is still very difficult in comparison to most games. You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes.
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did
On July 02 2016 11:04 Scarecrow wrote: You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes.
You're right, I don't like the the different skill set emphasized.
So it is just me? If so, where did all those fans go? Why does MLG not do events? It isn't just because SC2 values a different skill set.
It is because that skill set isn't valued by the fans. Including me. Everyone gets an expansion, everyone can defend it easily, the game is duller for it (and yes I understand I'm using everyone loosely, just like the author is using it loosely in his article).
I'm just arguing with people who stuck around.
I didn't dig out those videos for nostalgia. I dug them out to show how much fun it is to defend an expansion when it isn't a given, and how much people liked to watch the early game because of it.
Tbh this might be the first opinion article that i agree with about sc2, mostly cuz its not angry and has reason in it. I mean I totally agree that the early game was more fun to play after all for some reason it seems that controling fewer units is more fun than controling a ton of units, most games you seem to control a few like bw[at least before lategame], lol, dota. I understand what you say about having to earn the lategame and not have it for free well it makes sense specially since zerg is stronger in the late game than terran for example so having to fight for it seems nice right, the tvzs ive seen are like terran got a small window to end the game or he is most likely defeated. I dont think that faster even tou it is harder, is nescessarily more fun altough i like fast paced games.. in the end i think this all comes down to the games being developed too fast during mid game, so theres almost no early-to-mid game, its just worthy to sit and macro, the way to solve this i`d think is by lowering the economy in the games and by that i`d make attacks not harass straigh up attacks more viable..in the end it might not even be blizz fault cuz as the time goes by the defense gets stronger and offense weaker you know, even tou they maybe could have adressed that.
On July 02 2016 10:42 Nakajin wrote: So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time?
Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right?
I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale.
At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion with Broodlord-Infestor.
But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good!
And now we are left with a game where the early and mid game are rushed through in the name of accessibility. Is it any wonder SC2 is declining?
I don't see how it was done in the name of accessibility, a lot of my friend that played in WOL were just all inning every game or playing simple strategy, like mass marine and they quit when the game became more hard (most at the end of WOL other in HOTS). It is a lot more accessible to do all in then to play macro game, it is far less stressful. It may be hard to remember now that you have 6 year of play even more if you played other RTS like BW before but playing a macro game when you are not use to is not that fun it fell like your just hitting keys at random and you don't know what to do, it is why there was so much more cheese in WOL because it is an easy build order to follow and it is reassuring.
Blizz worked against early game cheese to make the game more fair to player already there not to make it accessible like wow did.
Also cheese were still very good in Hots, just watch Life run at Blizcon last year he pretty much cheese is way to being one game away of being the champion.
And still I don't believe that the game quality was the most important factor in the game popularity (far from it), Quake is still awesome, AOE II is still awesome, WC3 is still awesome, did not change the fact that barely anyone play them now, BW is not that popular, a good number of people watch it but there is not that much that plays it. Game just lose popularity, having a new version of the game to come out is a good excuse for those who were not that interested to stop (guess why no company make them anymore), at the end of the day it has been 6 year, most game are forgotten after 6 years
I don't see how it was done in the name of accessibility, a lot of my friend that played in WOL were just all inning every...
Expansions weren't accessible, nor were late game units to many players because they couldn't survive the early game. You just gave an example of that when you spoke of your friends, they didn't need to mass expand, ect... Blizzard fixed that by making the early game easier.
My argument is that the early game was the best part.
On July 02 2016 11:17 alullabyofpain wrote: Tbh this might be the first opinion article that i agree with about sc2, mostly cuz its not angry and has reason in it.
Thanks.
Blizzard wanted to make the game shorter, because it got too long in HOTS. They had the recipe for success in WOL, but they decided the late game was better, when the late game always poor in comparison. Even in the game I linked, when Idra reaches Brood-Infestor the game becomes dreadful. It is just that because the early game was so good, no one cared.
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did
On July 02 2016 11:04 Scarecrow wrote: You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes.
You're right, I don't like the the different skill set emphasized.
So it is just me? If so, where did all those fans go? Why does MLG not do events? It isn't just because SC2 values a different skill set.
It is because that skill set isn't valued by the fans. Everyone gets an expansion, everyone can defend it easily, the game is duller for it (and yes I understand I'm using everyone loosely, just like the author is using it loosely in his article).
I'm just arguing with people who stuck around.
Really hate to burst your bubble. News Flash: SC2 isn't the only eSports game anymore and people don't appreciate games that are difficult. WoL had more people than LOTV Maybe LOTV is more demanding and requiring of a person's physicality and mentality? Only thing you're really pushing for is the early game, after which WoL basically flattens out into a monotonous, tedious game with deathballs even more enphasized in Hots. Lotv gets you into the midgame(I'm not going to say easily) in better condition, with you(as the protoss) with actual infrastructure and worker count to actually start doing different stuff. LOTV also emphasizes harass a lot more, and I would go so far as to say that it has become way too demanding of the player, and in the higher levels (I mean high masters), its just who gets to out-perform the other in harass. If your preferred skill set is 'defending early all ins' I would definitely like to say that that is a very dumb thing to love.
On July 02 2016 11:24 neoghaleon55 wrote: Completely disagree with your assessments. Legacy of the Void is super hard compared to WoL and HotS
Apparently the OP was a complete lie and BronzeKnee would now like to explain that the early game is the only thing worth in SC2 and now Blizz has taken it away.
On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote: Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy.
It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge.
You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off.
Yes, WOL does become tedious after that, and that should have been handled differently. Someday maybe I'll create a mod.
But here is the difference, here is why fans loved WOL so much:
Expansions were earned, and because defensive tools weren't strong there was so many different types of all-ins, and more being developed all the time.
I'd had watched hundreds if not thousands of TvZ's prior to MLG Orlando and no one I knew of, not me, not even the casters had ever seen Bombers pure marine train cheese. And because we didn't know if Idra could hold, we were on the edge of our seats. I was in chat at the time, everyone thought Idra was dead.
But he held. The vast majority of SC2 players would have never held that, it took massive skill. But with things like Photon Overcharge, anyone can hold it today.
And today, in LOTV harass is emphasized as you said. But it is cookie cutter harass that Blizzard invented by giving you harass units, because defensive tools are so strong. How many hundreds of times have we all watched an Oracle fly into the base? We know exactly what it is going to do, it kills a bunch maybe 5-8 workers if there is no defenses, and maybe 1-3 if there is defense.
It is boring and predictable, no one is on the edge of their seats. Same with the Liberator, Reapers, Adepts, ect...
On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote: Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy.
It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge.
You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off.
Sorry I didn't play BW. And PvP was not a knife fight in the dark at all in WOL if you took the time to understand the matchup. I know, because I played it and had an 80% winrate, it was my best matchup.
You know how many 4 Gates, Cannon Rushes and Proxy 2 Gates worked in the in the TSL 4 Korean qualifiers that featured the best Koreans?
Zero. I watched every single replay of every PvP game. There was even a proxy 2 gate done in base, that went completely unscouted until the Zealots attacked on Ohana that was held with extreme skill. Only three one base builds worked out of all the games, all three were unscouted 10 gate 3 Gates done by Jim. And when it was scouted he lost with it every time.
It isn't that I like to see 1 base versus 1 base, it is that I liked to see people have to work to defend expansions.
Some fans loved WoL for that. The same players who loved doing easy to execute 1 base all-ins then left for easier games once those stopped working and they had to learn how to play an evolving RTS with extended games rather than KO's. The best games for me were after the low skill era, when the BW scene came in and players learnt how to transition better.
On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote: Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy.
It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge.
You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off.
PvP was not a knife fight in the dark at all in WOL if you took the time to understand the matchup. I know, because I played it and had an 80% winrate, it was my best matchup. .
That's an absurd winrate if you weren't just spamming an all-in... what was your rank?
I played high masters/low GM on NA. My winrate in TvP wasn't very good by the end of WOL so my PvP win rate buoyed me. My winrate also took a dive when I peaked in all matchups naturally. Terrans didn't cheese at all at the end of WOL, hence there was nothing for me to defend.
On July 02 2016 11:31 BronzeKnee wrote: Yes, WOL does become tedious after that, and that should have been handled differently. Someday maybe I'll create a mod.
But here is the difference, here is why fans loved WOL so much:
Expansions were earned, and because defensive tools weren't strong there was so many different types of all-ins, and more being developed all the time.
I'd had watched hundreds if not thousands of TvZ's prior to MLG Orlando and no one I knew of, not me, not even the casters had ever seen Bombers pure marine train cheese. And because we didn't know if Idra could hold, we were on the edge of our seats. I was in chat at the time, everyone thought Idra was dead.
But he held. The vast majority of SC2 players would have never held that, it took massive skill. But with things like Photon Overcharge, anyone can hold it today.
And today, in LOTV harass is emphasized as you said. But it is cookie cutter harass that Blizzard invented by giving you harass units, because defensive tools are so strong. How many hundreds of times have we all watched an Oracle fly into the base? We know exactly what it is going to do, it kills a bunch maybe 5-8 workers if there is no defenses, and maybe 1-3 if there is defense.
It is boring and predictable, no one is on the edge of their seats. Same with the Liberator, Reapers, Adepts, ect...
You say "earned" You say "different" All of these are not correct wording to your point. You want to say you're not having the same fun. Why? Because you feel Blizzard is structuring the game wrong. But is Blizzard giving away ladder points for free? Not really. Its still demanding, its still tedious, its just as stressful and takes a more than a few frustrated keyboard bashing when you realize you will be stuck in Master league for the 5th season in a row. You still earn your victories. The way of harass and all ins ever change. Of course it does. Its just the meta. You think earlier protoss had diverse all ins when it was just subtle refinements of Parting soultrains and MC 2 base blink. I would say that LOTV has the best lineup of harass and all ins that you ever freaking saw.
Allow me to tell you what you really want to say. "LOTV plays like shit, Blizz. You know why? Because of all the different 1 dimensional harass units you introduced over the years, and even buffed so that no person in his right state of mind is gonna cope with successfully in every darned midgame. Because you tried to make a game like another, and at the same time, didn't. Because instead of the game influencing your mind, you tried to influence the game and it failed. Because I'm bad at the game, and I know I am, but the game isn't designed to make me want to get better at the game anymore. I don't feel the thrill of success that I've felt when I was first introduced to SC2, and I am just gonna blame it all on the early game." You're too nice to Blizzard.
I would also like to point out that every change that I've disagreed with, blizzard always stated "We think that it will be funner to watch." after making a more than drastic change. Personally I think the early game was perfect. The starting income has been the same for over 10 years going back to sc1. Yes you started with only 4 workers in BW, and 6 up until hots. But in BW you got 8 minerals a rip apposed to just 5 a rip now. Its not perfectly the same, but its close. Now getting worker kills feel way less important unless its a huge amount. The ramps are all the same size, so creating defence is really the same price. The early game of Starcraft is gone. I dont even feel damage from banshees, dts, or oracles anymore because throwing up a turret does not have any affect on my build. LOTV is really all about massing up faster, and micro. All for what? For entertainment? Blizz didnt even know they created an awesome Esport with BW. Now that they know its Esport worthy, they want it to be cooler to watch? They should have just stuck with, Lets make the game have a high skill cap, lets make it require a lot of thought processing, and competetive.
Same rank but I was the inverse. My vZ and particularly vT carried my awful PvP. I love macro and late game management and enjoy watching games that emphasize it (particularly high level multitasking). Watching the skill level in WoL was painful for me after switching over from BW. It's seriously just the age of the game and the excellent, free-to-play, competition that has hurt SC2 more than anything. If PvP was still 4 gates and cannon rushes after this many years people would have tuned out long ago.
Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring and predictable. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback for either side. Honestly, doing all-ins was more fun, more intense.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today.
I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset. If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made. If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.) If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
See, I think it is true for most fans. Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature. And because the early game was so volatile, a lot of games ended then and there.
No one cheers when the harass units like an Oracle show up and get a few kills today because it doesn't require much skill.
I guess the real tragedy in Blizzard's design for SC2 versus BW is that they left BW alone and maps and random bugs (like muta stacking) balanced the game.
But in SC2, after WOL wanted to create this diverse great late game while shortening the length of games and fixing the flaws of Vortex and Brood-Infestor. But unknowingly, they had created an excellent early game in WOL that already lasted about as long as the fans could take. So they should have left it, but instead of just fixing the late game, they ruined the early game and replaced the late game of WOL with a just as terrible (if not worse) late game in HOTS featuring mass Swarmhosts. In LOTV, they chopped out most of the early game, but did finally make some improvements to the late game.
If only they had taken a more hands off approach in SC2 as they had in BW.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today.
I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset. If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made. If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.) If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
Since we are being honest with God, now, I don't think you're understanding any of what I'm saying.
Blizzard created "harass" tools that are used the same by everyone, just as a cookie cutter produces the same result for everyone (provided they are used correctly).
They aren't intense or unpredictable to use, so they are boring.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
See, I think it is true for most fans. Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature.
No one cheers when an Oracle shows up and gets a few kills today because it doesn't require much skill.
Um... they're cheering because its about the only engagement WoL ever has... outside of the deathball 200 fight where everything ends in 8 seconds.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: there was no chance to comeback for either side. Honestly, doing all-ins was more fun, more intense.
See this is the problem. imo All-ins suck. imo Builds that transition are more fun and produce more intense back-and-forth games. It's just an opinion of yours, there's nothing 'wrong' with SC2, it's just an old game facing stiff competition and has moved away from the style of RTS you enjoy.
You're correlating fan cheering with game quality?
Also on a side note, just reading through both the polygon article and briefly skimmed through his manuscript about WoW and the guy is actually factually wrong in several of his examples. Not that I'm Blizzard's biggest supporter.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
See, I think it is true for most fans. Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature.
No one cheers when an Oracle shows up and gets a few kills today because it doesn't require much skill.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today.
I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset. If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made. If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.) If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
Since we are being honest with God, now, I don't think you're understanding any of what I'm saying.
Blizzard created "harass" tools that are used the same by everyone, just as a cookie cutter produces the same result for everyone (provided they are used correctly).
They aren't intense or unpredictable to use, so they are boring.
1 dimensional harass units being stupid are about the extent of our agreement. Your argument on all ins being a chance for comeback is some extreme fallacy, because an all in is "break it or lose it". The moment you fail that all in is when you lose. Now you tell me how many times a failed all inner almost lost the game and then came back and won the thing in an epic 20-30 minute match because that would be an actual cheer.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: there was no chance to comeback for either side. Honestly, doing all-ins was more fun, more intense.
See this is the problem. imo All-ins suck. imo Builds that transition are more fun and produce more intense back-and-forth games. It's just an opinion of yours, there's nothing 'wrong' with SC2, it's just an old game facing stiff competition and has moved away from the style of RTS you enjoy.
You're absolutely right about builds that transition being the best. See that Idra/Bomber game I linked on the first page, that is an example of a good game with transitions are done by both sides. But transitioning today is too cookie cutterish. Back then, so much more was viable because defensive tools weren't as strong, and diversity gave the game more strategies.
But my point was that all-ins were better than macro for 20 minutes then big battle for 8 seconds and game over. That is my opinion of course, you lived through late WOL PvT too, where if the Protoss defended drops, there wasn't much happening.
On July 02 2016 11:58 Kuroeeah wrote: You're correlating fan cheering with game quality?
No, I'm correlating fans cheering with the parts of the game fans enjoyed most. Let me quote myself:
Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature. And because the early game was so volatile, a lot of games ended then and there.
And that part of the game is exactly the part Blizzard removed. Is it any wonder why the fans moved on? I remember the early game being so intense, and everyone thought Idra was dead, everyone was on the edge of their seats for the early game.
WoL was garbage. was a BW elitist then because of it, but I really really like LOTV now. still prefer BW, but when I came back to see what LOTV was like i had low hopes - really have nothing to be smug about now, it's utterly fantastic.
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
See, I think it is true for most fans. Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature.
No one cheers when an Oracle shows up and gets a few kills today because it doesn't require much skill.
On July 02 2016 11:53 RCCar wrote:
On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today.
I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset. If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made. If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.) If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
Since we are being honest with God, now, I don't think you're understanding any of what I'm saying.
Blizzard created "harass" tools that are used the same by everyone, just as a cookie cutter produces the same result for everyone (provided they are used correctly).
They aren't intense or unpredictable to use, so they are boring.
1 dimensional harass units being stupid are about the extent of our agreement. Your argument on all ins being a chance for comeback is some extreme fallacy, because an all in is "break it or lose it". The moment you fail that all in is when you lose. Now you tell me how many times a failed all inner almost lost the game and then came back and won the thing in an epic 20-30 minute match because that would be an actual cheer.
Watch the game between Bomber and Idra. Bomber doesn't do an all-in he does an aggressive play with non-harass units, which doesn't really exist in LOTV while transitioning.
Surviving cheese just to have a long game may have felt rewarding to you - and sure, I like competing from the beginning, but dying because you didn't scout a 4gate didn't feel fun - it was a waste of time.
The reason WoL was popular back then was because it was what made esports big in the west before everything else came out - because it had the reputation of being big in korea, so people were interested in checking out. People became open minded about competitive gaming afterwards because of it.
But it was certainly a niche in the west at the time. The games weren't particularly good.
On July 02 2016 12:19 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: Surviving cheese just to have a long game may have felt rewarding to you - and sure, I like competing from the beginning, but dying because you didn't scout a 4gate didn't feel fun - it was a waste of time.
You were too greedy in WOL if you weren't scouting or were taking risks knowing you couldn't scout. I know today, defending is much easier, you don't need the Evo for the Spore, ect... so you don't need to scout as much. Because of that, the game is much more mechanical.
Counterstrike and DOTA were released long before SC2. And when SC2 came out, FPS and MOBAs weren't as good as they are today. Remember, SC2 took over MLG from Halo.
The big difference is my eyes, is that MOBAs and FPS have consistently evolved and become better over time, while RTS hasn't. Blizzard has spuns it wheels with the same bad design ideas throughout each iteration, and just copied skill shot abilities from MOBAs for new units in LOTV.
I don't think SC2 was doomed from the start at all, it could still be #1. I think it didn't improve as much as other genres, and got left in the dust. But that wasn't fate, that was Blizzard's fault.
Sorry i see no comparison. Also SC2 WoL was shit your are looking through rose tinted glasses. Step of War \Xel'Naga Tower not thanks ..
SC2 is fine this what the developers want, they have had plenty of time to change it but hey havent. these "good old" days are garbage. Play SC 1 if you want a harder game, its still popular
see the game is pretty hard, and yes some things have been made easier but you drop 4 bases at once keep up the macro and control it all . . id hardly call that a hand out
You are playing less because SC2 is a 6 year old hardcore competitive game and it's very, very hard to keep playing with the same enjoyment over such a long time. Period.
I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of some posters in this forum, it's absolutely absurd. Early WoL, when you "had to fight for your expansion with skill", was a one base cheesefest where a lot of the time a player won simply because he happened to get lucky with the spawn positions or map (close by ground Metalopolis vs Zerg, hello!). PvP was absolutely fucking unbearable, especially on maps like Tal'darim Altar or Bel'shir Beach. People fucking HATED cheeses and all-ins, we all hated blistering fucking sands, the 111 on Xel'naga Caverns (im sure you LOVED playing those games), having to soultrain zergs or die trying...i could name more. Everyone was claiming for macro games and macro maps that blizzard wasn't providing, that's why TLMC was born in the first place.
More people than today were watching and cheering because we Starcraft players were the first ones to truly make competitive gaming huge. BW, WC3, CS and Quake all came before SC2, but they never had the massive explosion SC2 had. We all had that feeling that something new and awesome was starting, and it was great to be part of it. Today i feel like people tend to cheer more for the game or players themselves, rather than for the sheer enthusiasm and novelty of it, and that's fine.
Why is this article remotely relevant? You're just projecting your emotions onto random words, this could have been about making the perfect salad dressing and you still would have said it's comparable to SC2.
I cannot see the point of this, balance changes (PO or other changes) are not done to make it more accessible. Frankly that argument has nothing to do with balance and gameplay. The "everyone deserves a medal" argument cannot be used in sc2 at all, the reason is that its a 1v1 game. Both cannot win, its impossible, You are either a winner or a loser, that is what the wow writers point was. It annoyed me and got me to quit wow, any 7 year old can play to max level in wow easy, then what have you yourself been able to accomplish? Then when the end game too got made into easy-mode everything you did felt futile.
Can you argue that any seven year old can go to master in sc2? No? In sc2 if you do win you have accomplished something and that isn't a feeling that have been watered down.
@BronzeKnee I played World of WarCraft since the release in Europe and I can say that I gathered a lot of experience about the changes t that happened ingame. I played through Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria and experienced the start of Warlord of Draenor and there is one thing that I thought really changed things: As an experienced player you felt, at least in PvE, as if your performance was cut down to the gear that was available to you and the mandatory button smashing. You could still do smart decision in terms of positioning and trying to line cooldowns in a better way but overall the ability to make a difference by the usage of abilities was gone.
StarCraft2 is different from that because you still have so many options to play and so many different layers to improve your gameplay that, especially as a non-grandmaster, you can do nearly everything you want if you spent the time and effort to figure it out. That is something that is simply not possible anymore for WoW, but it is for StarCraft2 and that is the point were your comparison is flawed.
On July 02 2016 17:31 Teoita wrote: You are playing less because SC2 is a 6 year old hardcore competitive game and it's very, very hard to keep playing with the same enjoyment over such a long time. Period.
I am sick and tired of the ipocrisy of some posters in this forum, it's absolutely absurd. Early WoL, when you "had to fight for your expansion with skill", was a one base cheesefest where a lot of the time a player won simply because he happened to get lucky with the spawn positions or map (close by ground Metalopolis vs Zerg, hello!). PvP was absolutely fucking unbearable, especially on maps like Tal'darim Altar or Bel'shir Beach. People fucking HATED cheeses and all-ins, we all hated blistering fucking sands, the 111 on Xel'naga Caverns (im sure you LOVED playing those games), having to soultrain zergs or die trying...i could name more. Everyone was claiming for macro games and macro maps that blizzard wasn't providing, that's why TLMC was born in the first place.
More people than today were watching and cheering because we Starcraft players were the first ones to truly make competitive gaming huge. BW, WC3, CS and Quake all came before SC2, but they never had the massive explosion SC2 had. We all had that feeling that something new and awesome was starting, and it was great to be part of it. Today i feel like people tend to cheer more for the game or players themselves, rather than for the sheer enthusiasm and novelty of it, and that's fine.
Quoted for truth. We have a great ability to forget the bad things we had in the past and instead focus only on the good things. If I have learnt anything in these last 6 years, it is that this community doesn't even know what it wants and I can understand why Blizzard ignores us.
On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote: You're right, and that is why I am right. Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd.
Well you are completely right. But it is the exact same thing that BW "elitist" always have said about the transition from bw to sc2. Your argument is basically that there is no depth in the game since you can defend everything with the over charge, so the skill and strategic possibilities of the defender is taken away in order to make the game more accessible. We who came from bw felt that all the depth was taken from the game in sc2. It is best described, still, by Lalush in this video:
For example, in bw the mutas could be stacked by using a mineral patch, an owerlord or a trapped drone, then they could attack with patrol micro or the "chinese triangle" micro etc. depending on how skilled you were. in sc2 they can only attack or not attack (as far as I can see). rip Jaedong mutas....
On July 02 2016 17:31 Teoita wrote: You are playing less because SC2 is a 6 year old hardcore competitive game and it's very, very hard to keep playing with the same enjoyment over such a long time. Period.
I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of some posters in this forum, it's absolutely absurd. Early WoL, when you "had to fight for your expansion with skill", was a one base cheesefest where a lot of the time a player won simply because he happened to get lucky with the spawn positions or map (close by ground Metalopolis vs Zerg, hello!). PvP was absolutely fucking unbearable, especially on maps like Tal'darim Altar or Bel'shir Beach. People fucking HATED cheeses and all-ins, we all hated blistering fucking sands, the 111 on Xel'naga Caverns (im sure you LOVED playing those games), having to soultrain zergs or die trying...i could name more. Everyone was claiming for macro games and macro maps that blizzard wasn't providing, that's why TLMC was born in the first place.
More people than today were watching and cheering because we Starcraft players were the first ones to truly make competitive gaming huge. BW, WC3, CS and Quake all came before SC2, but they never had the massive explosion SC2 had. We all had that feeling that something new and awesome was starting, and it was great to be part of it. Today i feel like people tend to cheer more for the game or players themselves, rather than for the sheer enthusiasm and novelty of it, and that's fine.
For the record, the author of that article is an idiot. The game was much, much easier in BC and Vanilla than it is today, it just took a LOT longer to get things because of how long normal/heroic dungeons were, how long it took to get 40 man raids going, and how long it took to gear up and get attuned. Go play a warlock back in BC, it's literally Curse of Doom once a minute and spam shadowbolt the rest of the fight. Nothing else. At least there's a real rotation to all 3 Warlock specs now, and demo is even extremely difficult to maximize, all while dealing with bosses that have 10x more difficult mechanics than old bosses ever did.
The problem is, as it is with SC2: We learned. The game got exponentially harder, but we learned faster. WoW raiders have gotten used to virtually every type of mechanic that it's feasible to throw at them. We spent years learning our class rotations and we're used to the subtle changes between expansions by now. The simple problem is that the average player has much more support via 3rd party websites and in-game tutorials than they ever did, so learning and picking up the game is easy and quick because it's so similar to things that people have been playing for years now as opposed to being revolutionary.
When WoL was young, even the pros didn't always know the best strategies, everything was evolving and there were new and innovative ways to do things. Now, so much has been tried and perfected that for the most part everyone knows what to expect out of any given matchup and every tight build order and its permutations have been explored. I'm sure there's still more to discover, but far less than when the game was fresh. We have so many 3rd party sites, so many resources at TL, and so much professional tape to watch that the strategy part of the real-time-strategy game has all but evaporated. The only difference between WoW and SC2 in that regard is that the latter has a much, much higher mechanical skill requirement, which turns off a lot of the more casual players.
It's just the lifecycle of a competitive game. You don't really see all too many new and innovative football or basketball plays either, it's all mechanical outplay within a rigid system.
I remember playing WoL it was so damn hard to survive the early game, specially with Protoss and Zerg (Prep Queen Buff).
At that time I think HuK was AWESOME, remember 3 Gate Sentry Expand? Defending and pushing while expanding? THAT was SKILL, right now I see free expas everywhere and easy defenses, as well harass... before it was what? Banshee, Hellion Drop, Darkies, Mutas, Phoenix, Blinkstlkrs... and right now anything can be thrown and worse... Spores without Evo Chamber as req... buffed Queens, Photon Over on Pylons... wich you always have and need, and T1.5 FLYING UNIT.
Then the Widow Mines which can be 1 shot trick like Disruptors, Blizz got at some point where instead nerfing things to tune them properly, they simply buffed others and others as a chain effect making a real mess at the end.
The skills LotV requires to win a game are more difficult to master than WoL.
Opponents predictably playing aggressive early game is not that hard to deal with in general (Let's put aside when zerg was unable to scout). The challenge is hammering out a solid build order and then executing it, but once you've done that you're getting practically free wins from that point forward against every opponent who does the thing you know how to do deal with.
LotV, though it often bypasses that part of the game completely, gets you engaged in much more challenging aspects of the game. I think some people are turned off by this because they don't know how to engage in these aspects of the game. They see the things that they used to know how to improve at are now de-emphasized and they just kinda play games out not knowing exactly how to improve game-to-game.
Two of the hardest skills in the game are multitasking and scout then react. If you and your opponent both kind of float toward mid-late game, then the game is a completely open slate where you are faced with SO many decisions and opportunities to build an advantage. It's not something simple and obvious that you can write a script for, like the WoL 4gate rush. It's much more complex. Being able to scout then react is for the more strategically-minded players. Engaging in action on multiple fronts is for the more mechanically-inclined players. They're both important and both difficult to do well.
And I know other people have said it, but I'll just say it again as someone who played in both eras of WoW: Competitive raiding has only gotten more difficult and more hardcore (issues of managing 40 man roster aside). They've also managed to make it easier for the most casual players to experience raiding as well. Anyone on the spectrum in between also has a place as a handicap of better gear naturally builds up when a guild is progressing slowly.
If LotV really did make the game more accessible to the casual players, and more challenging for pro players, then I wonder if the interesting question is how many players in the middle have been "left behind" by SC2's identity change?
On July 02 2016 23:12 NonY wrote: The skills LotV requires to win a game are more difficult to master than WoL.
Opponents predictably playing aggressive early game is not that hard to deal with in general (Let's put aside when zerg was unable to scout). The challenge is hammering out a solid build order and then executing it, but once you've done that you're getting practically free wins from that point forward against every opponent who does the thing you know how to do deal with.
LotV, though it often bypasses that part of the game completely, gets you engaged in much more challenging aspects of the game. I think some people are turned off by this because they don't know how to engage in these aspects of the game. They see the things that they used to know how to improve at are now de-emphasized and they just kinda play games out not knowing exactly how to improve game-to-game.
Two of the hardest skills in the game are multitasking and scout then react. If you and your opponent both kind of float toward mid-late game, then the game is a completely open slate where you are faced with SO many decisions and opportunities to build an advantage. It's not something simple and obvious that you can write a script for, like the WoL 4gate rush. It's much more complex. Being able to scout then react is for the more strategically-minded players. Engaging in action on multiple fronts is for the more mechanically-inclined players. They're both important and both difficult to do well.
And I know other people have said it, but I'll just say it again as someone who played in both eras of WoW: Competitive raiding has only gotten more difficult and more hardcore (issues of managing 40 man roster aside). They've also managed to make it easier for the most casual players to experience raiding as well. Anyone on the spectrum in between also has a place as a handicap of better gear naturally builds up when a guild is progressing slowly.
If LotV really did make the game more accessible to the casual players, and more challenging for pro players, then I wonder if the interesting question is how many players in the middle have been "left behind" by SC2's identity change?
People often say BW is so much more demanding mechanically, but how would you compare it to LotV?
I don't play sc2 anymore, but I played a lot back in the day. I think the comparison you make is off.
LOTV still has the highest skill ceiling of any game I've ever played. It is nearly impossible for newcomers to get into the competitive scene because they are so far behind the curve on what mechanics are and never mind the current meta.
I think a much fairer comparison is D3 to WOW. I mean, they are basically the same games, but to me they both reward mindless clicking with drops. It's like playing a slot machine, you pull the handle over and over again (never really have to worry about dying and if you do you are never punished for it) until you hit a jackpot... Then you fucking do it again. That is some mindless shit, and that is what the article refers to. Mindless grinding to get better gear, and can beat the next boss based on the gear you have not the skill you need to beat them.
That's why I just can't play D3, I don't see the point. I join a team, and get carried by someone that put in more hours than me. All the enemies on the screen blow up before I even see them, and you are punished for solo play... There is just no challenge. If you put in the requisite hours you will get the better gear, and to beat higher levels all you need is the better gear. It's just a time sink, and whoever sinks more time has the better character.
I think it is possible to say that LOTV is harder or easier, you can make both arguments... but in no way can you say it's mindless like WOW or D3. Those games aren't a test of skill as much as a test of how much time you will put in. No strategy, just mindless clicking until you get the drop reward.
It is way to far stretched opinion. Giving up to one button raids? Mythic (and to a much less extent Heroic) raids still require MASSIVE amount of dedication, skill, teamwork and personal sacrifice, yes they streamlined a lot of things, like much much easier raid preparation and consumables, but the key spirit of MMO raiding is still there, and the raids today are much, much harder than vanilla/BC days. There are tons of problems with WoW right now but accessibility is not one of them.
EPT
