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Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy.
On July 02 2016 11:05 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
You're right, and that is why I am right.
Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd. Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did
On July 02 2016 11:04 Scarecrow wrote:
You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes.
You're right, I don't like the the different skill set emphasized.
So it is just me? If so, where did all those fans go? Why does MLG not do events? It isn't just because SC2 values a different skill set.
It is because that skill set isn't valued by the fans. Including me. Everyone gets an expansion, everyone can defend it easily, the game is duller for it (and yes I understand I'm using everyone loosely, just like the author is using it loosely in his article).
I'm just arguing with people who stuck around.
I didn't dig out those videos for nostalgia. I dug them out to show how much fun it is to defend an expansion when it isn't a given, and how much people liked to watch the early game because of it.
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Tbh this might be the first opinion article that i agree with about sc2, mostly cuz its not angry and has reason in it.
I mean I totally agree that the early game was more fun to play after all for some reason it seems that controling fewer units is more fun than controling a ton of units, most games you seem to control a few like bw[at least before lategame], lol, dota. I understand what you say about having to earn the lategame and not have it for free well it makes sense specially since zerg is stronger in the late game than terran for example so having to fight for it seems nice right, the tvzs ive seen are like terran got a small window to end the game or he is most likely defeated.
I dont think that faster even tou it is harder, is nescessarily more fun altough i like fast paced games.. in the end i think this all comes down to the games being developed too fast during mid game, so theres almost no early-to-mid game, its just worthy to sit and macro, the way to solve this i`d think is by lowering the economy in the games and by that i`d make attacks not harass straigh up attacks more viable..in the end it might not even be blizz fault cuz as the time goes by the defense gets stronger and offense weaker you know, even tou they maybe could have adressed that.
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Canada8989 Posts
On July 02 2016 10:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 10:42 Nakajin wrote:
So your argument is that WOL needed more skill because it had more stupid all in that won you the game when the guy didn't scout it in time? Stupid all-ins... stupid variety... can't everyone just play standard... why be unique? We need more defensives tools to hold this trash without scouting... Right? I always thought the better player at that moment, by definition of the word better, always wins the game. Anyway, my argument is more focusing on defensive abilities in general:
Blizzard greatly expanded the genre of harass "units" because normal units simply can't exploit defences anymore in HOTS and LOTV. That is a result of defenses and defensive play was becoming stronger and stronger. Defensive play had become so strong (to prevent those "stupid" all-iners from winning games) that the game was becoming stale. At the same time we saw the decline in viewers tournaments, ect. If you couldn't attack win early, there was far less drama and tension. I want to go back to Bomber vs Idra MLG Orlando, Game 3, series tied 1-1. I thought for sure that Idra was dead when Bomber was going to attack with his Marine cheese. But he held, he earned the right to go the late game, where he won in a terribly boring fashion with Broodlord-Infestor. But no one knew yet that Broodlord-Infestor was boring and terrible for the game yet (as I mentioned late game was terrible in WOL and still is in LOTV), because the early and mid game were so good! Watch it and see! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlxo9d_mlg-orlando-2011-starcraft-ii-game-1-2-3-eg-idra-z-vs-st-bomber-t-part-2-2_videogamesAnd don't even get me started about the series between Boxer and Idra at MLG Orlando... could Boxer cheese out Idra, or would his macro overcome? Another intense series: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlvry0_mlg-orlando-2011-starcraft-ii-game-1-2-3-4-5-eg-idra-z-vs-slayers-boxer-t-part-1-2_videogames And now we are left with a game where the early and mid game are rushed through in the name of accessibility. Is it any wonder SC2 is declining?
I don't see how it was done in the name of accessibility, a lot of my friend that played in WOL were just all inning every game or playing simple strategy, like mass marine and they quit when the game became more hard (most at the end of WOL other in HOTS). It is a lot more accessible to do all in then to play macro game, it is far less stressful. It may be hard to remember now that you have 6 year of play even more if you played other RTS like BW before but playing a macro game when you are not use to is not that fun it fell like your just hitting keys at random and you don't know what to do, it is why there was so much more cheese in WOL because it is an easy build order to follow and it is reassuring.
Blizz worked against early game cheese to make the game more fair to player already there not to make it accessible like wow did.
Also cheese were still very good in Hots, just watch Life run at Blizcon last year he pretty much cheese is way to being one game away of being the champion.
And still I don't believe that the game quality was the most important factor in the game popularity (far from it), Quake is still awesome, AOE II is still awesome, WC3 is still awesome, did not change the fact that barely anyone play them now, BW is not that popular, a good number of people watch it but there is not that much that plays it. Game just lose popularity, having a new version of the game to come out is a good excuse for those who were not that interested to stop (guess why no company make them anymore), at the end of the day it has been 6 year, most game are forgotten after 6 years
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On July 02 2016 11:18 Nakajin wrote:
I don't see how it was done in the name of accessibility, a lot of my friend that played in WOL were just all inning every...
Expansions weren't accessible, nor were late game units to many players because they couldn't survive the early game. You just gave an example of that when you spoke of your friends, they didn't need to mass expand, ect... Blizzard fixed that by making the early game easier.
My argument is that the early game was the best part.
On July 02 2016 11:17 alullabyofpain wrote:
Tbh this might be the first opinion article that i agree with about sc2, mostly cuz its not angry and has reason in it.
Thanks.
Blizzard wanted to make the game shorter, because it got too long in HOTS. They had the recipe for success in WOL, but they decided the late game was better, when the late game always poor in comparison. Even in the game I linked, when Idra reaches Brood-Infestor the game becomes dreadful. It is just that because the early game was so good, no one cared.
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On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote:Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy. Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:05 RCCar wrote:On July 02 2016 11:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
You're right, and that is why I am right.
Other games could exist in WOL because of the skill it took to expand, and in the words of White-ra, defense it.
That is what made it so special. You won't hear a crowd cheer so loud for someone like that today, because we don't have those crowds and because everyone an expansion for free, so there is nothing to cheer for.
Just watch the Idra-Bomber game and you'll see the skill and hear the crowd. Maybe thats just because there was a huge crowd to see the flipping game. Maybe I can call a friend to scream into the mic and that will convince you that whatever I am doing is the best thing mankind ever did Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:04 Scarecrow wrote:
You just don't like the different skills a multi-base meta emphasizes. You're right, I don't like the the different skill set emphasized. So it is just me? If so, where did all those fans go? Why does MLG not do events? It isn't just because SC2 values a different skill set.It is because that skill set isn't valued by the fans. Everyone gets an expansion, everyone can defend it easily, the game is duller for it (and yes I understand I'm using everyone loosely, just like the author is using it loosely in his article). I'm just arguing with people who stuck around.
Really hate to burst your bubble.
News Flash: SC2 isn't the only eSports game anymore and people don't appreciate games that are difficult.
WoL had more people than LOTV
Maybe LOTV is more demanding and requiring of a person's physicality and mentality?
Only thing you're really pushing for is the early game, after which WoL basically flattens out into a monotonous, tedious game with deathballs even more enphasized in Hots.
Lotv gets you into the midgame(I'm not going to say easily) in better condition, with you(as the protoss) with actual infrastructure and worker count to actually start doing different stuff.
LOTV also emphasizes harass a lot more, and I would go so far as to say that it has become way too demanding of the player, and in the higher levels (I mean high masters), its just who gets to out-perform the other in harass.
If your preferred skill set is 'defending early all ins'
I would definitely like to say that that is a very dumb thing to love.
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Completely disagree with your assessments.
Legacy of the Void is super hard compared to WoL and HotS
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On July 02 2016 11:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Completely disagree with your assessments.
Legacy of the Void is super hard compared to WoL and HotS
Apparently the OP was a complete lie and BronzeKnee would now like to explain that the early game is the only thing worth in SC2 and now Blizz has taken it away.
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On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy.
It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge.
You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off.
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Yes, WOL does become tedious after that, and that should have been handled differently. Someday maybe I'll create a mod.
But here is the difference, here is why fans loved WOL so much:
Expansions were earned, and because defensive tools weren't strong there was so many different types of all-ins, and more being developed all the time.
I'd had watched hundreds if not thousands of TvZ's prior to MLG Orlando and no one I knew of, not me, not even the casters had ever seen Bombers pure marine train cheese. And because we didn't know if Idra could hold, we were on the edge of our seats. I was in chat at the time, everyone thought Idra was dead.
But he held. The vast majority of SC2 players would have never held that, it took massive skill. But with things like Photon Overcharge, anyone can hold it today.
And today, in LOTV harass is emphasized as you said. But it is cookie cutter harass that Blizzard invented by giving you harass units, because defensive tools are so strong. How many hundreds of times have we all watched an Oracle fly into the base? We know exactly what it is going to do, it kills a bunch maybe 5-8 workers if there is no defenses, and maybe 1-3 if there is defense.
It is boring and predictable, no one is on the edge of their seats. Same with the Liberator, Reapers, Adepts, ect...
On July 02 2016 11:29 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy. It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge. You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off.
Sorry I didn't play BW. And PvP was not a knife fight in the dark at all in WOL if you took the time to understand the matchup. I know, because I played it and had an 80% winrate, it was my best matchup.
You know how many 4 Gates, Cannon Rushes and Proxy 2 Gates worked in the in the TSL 4 Korean qualifiers that featured the best Koreans?
Zero. I watched every single replay of every PvP game. There was even a proxy 2 gate done in base, that went completely unscouted until the Zealots attacked on Ohana that was held with extreme skill. Only three one base builds worked out of all the games, all three were unscouted 10 gate 3 Gates done by Jim. And when it was scouted he lost with it every time.
It isn't that I like to see 1 base versus 1 base, it is that I liked to see people have to work to defend expansions.
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Some fans loved WoL for that. The same players who loved doing easy to execute 1 base all-ins then left for easier games once those stopped working and they had to learn how to play an evolving RTS with extended games rather than KO's. The best games for me were after the low skill era, when the BW scene came in and players learnt how to transition better.
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Well, I loved to defend those easy to execute builds because they were hard to defend. Now just press F and click on the Pylon.
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On July 02 2016 11:31 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:29 Scarecrow wrote:On July 02 2016 11:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
Everyone does get an expansion in SC2. That is the medal analogy. It's a shit analogy. Everyone getting GM by grinding out games, now that would be closer. A natural expansion isn't a medal, winning is and winning is far from handed to you. Noone really cares about how many bases they have, they just want to win and rank up (actual medals). You just prefer 1 base vs 1 base WoL style, others don't. There was a lot more coinflipping back then and the reduced early game volatility now allows for more emphasis on mid-late game skills. It's not ezmode, it's just different. The game was obviously more popular back then because it was pre-LoL/dota 2 and it was fresh. Now it's more stale and it's not due to the lack of constant 1 base all-ins. BW expansions were also pretty much automatic too after the boxer era barring crazy proxies. 2+ base play was utterly standard but you won't hear anyone talking about how ez it was and the fanbase still loved it. Besides defence in SC2 is far more than just hitting overcharge, people play around it and defensive positioning, micro and scouting is still huge. You keep harping on overcharge but it vastly improved the PvP matchup, compared to the shitty 'knife fight in the dark' it used to be (my opinion). Now the better player wins more consistently and 'elbow grease' pays off. PvP was not a knife fight in the dark at all in WOL if you took the time to understand the matchup. I know, because I played it and had an 80% winrate, it was my best matchup. .
That's an absurd winrate if you weren't just spamming an all-in... what was your rank?
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I played high masters/low GM on NA. My winrate in TvP wasn't very good by the end of WOL so my PvP win rate buoyed me. My winrate also took a dive when I peaked in all matchups naturally. Terrans didn't cheese at all at the end of WOL, hence there was nothing for me to defend.
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On July 02 2016 11:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
Yes, WOL does become tedious after that, and that should have been handled differently. Someday maybe I'll create a mod.
But here is the difference, here is why fans loved WOL so much:
Expansions were earned, and because defensive tools weren't strong there was so many different types of all-ins, and more being developed all the time.
I'd had watched hundreds if not thousands of TvZ's prior to MLG Orlando and no one I knew of, not me, not even the casters had ever seen Bombers pure marine train cheese. And because we didn't know if Idra could hold, we were on the edge of our seats. I was in chat at the time, everyone thought Idra was dead.
But he held. The vast majority of SC2 players would have never held that, it took massive skill. But with things like Photon Overcharge, anyone can hold it today.
And today, in LOTV harass is emphasized as you said. But it is cookie cutter harass that Blizzard invented by giving you harass units, because defensive tools are so strong. How many hundreds of times have we all watched an Oracle fly into the base? We know exactly what it is going to do, it kills a bunch maybe 5-8 workers if there is no defenses, and maybe 1-3 if there is defense.
It is boring and predictable, no one is on the edge of their seats. Same with the Liberator, Reapers, Adepts, ect...
You say "earned"
You say "different"
All of these are not correct wording to your point.
You want to say you're not having the same fun.
Why? Because you feel Blizzard is structuring the game wrong.
But is Blizzard giving away ladder points for free?
Not really.
Its still demanding, its still tedious, its just as stressful and takes a more than a few frustrated keyboard bashing when you realize you will be stuck in Master league for the 5th season in a row.
You still earn your victories.
The way of harass and all ins ever change. Of course it does. Its just the meta. You think earlier protoss had diverse all ins when it was just subtle refinements of Parting soultrains and MC 2 base blink. I would say that LOTV has the best lineup of harass and all ins that you ever freaking saw.
Allow me to tell you what you really want to say.
"LOTV plays like shit, Blizz.
You know why? Because of all the different 1 dimensional harass units you introduced over the years, and even buffed so that no person in his right state of mind is gonna cope with successfully in every darned midgame.
Because you tried to make a game like another, and at the same time, didn't. Because instead of the game influencing your mind, you tried to influence the game and it failed.
Because I'm bad at the game, and I know I am, but the game isn't designed to make me want to get better at the game anymore. I don't feel the thrill of success that I've felt when I was first introduced to SC2, and I am just gonna blame it all on the early game."
You're too nice to Blizzard.
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I would also like to point out that every change that I've disagreed with, blizzard always stated "We think that it will be funner to watch." after making a more than drastic change. Personally I think the early game was perfect. The starting income has been the same for over 10 years going back to sc1. Yes you started with only 4 workers in BW, and 6 up until hots. But in BW you got 8 minerals a rip apposed to just 5 a rip now. Its not perfectly the same, but its close. Now getting worker kills feel way less important unless its a huge amount. The ramps are all the same size, so creating defence is really the same price. The early game of Starcraft is gone. I dont even feel damage from banshees, dts, or oracles anymore because throwing up a turret does not have any affect on my build. LOTV is really all about massing up faster, and micro. All for what? For entertainment? Blizz didnt even know they created an awesome Esport with BW. Now that they know its Esport worthy, they want it to be cooler to watch? They should have just stuck with, Lets make the game have a high skill cap, lets make it require a lot of thought processing, and competetive.
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Same rank but I was the inverse. My vZ and particularly vT carried my awful PvP. I love macro and late game management and enjoy watching games that emphasize it (particularly high level multitasking). Watching the skill level in WoL was painful for me after switching over from BW. It's seriously just the age of the game and the excellent, free-to-play, competition that has hurt SC2 more than anything. If PvP was still 4 gates and cannon rushes after this many years people would have tuned out long ago.
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Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring and predictable. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback for either side. Honestly, doing all-ins was more fun, more intense.
The same is true today for me in PvT.
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On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today.
I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset.
If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made.
If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.)
If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
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On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
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On July 02 2016 11:54 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored. This is only clear in your head and the skillset is just different. Fans have left for a wide variety of reasons, not because of the lack of early game all-ins.
See, I think it is true for most fans. Go back and watch those WOL games, watch when people cheer. They are cheering early game holds and aggression the loudest because of the intense unpredictable nature. And because the early game was so volatile, a lot of games ended then and there.
No one cheers when the harass units like an Oracle show up and get a few kills today because it doesn't require much skill.
I guess the real tragedy in Blizzard's design for SC2 versus BW is that they left BW alone and maps and random bugs (like muta stacking) balanced the game.
But in SC2, after WOL wanted to create this diverse great late game while shortening the length of games and fixing the flaws of Vortex and Brood-Infestor. But unknowingly, they had created an excellent early game in WOL that already lasted about as long as the fans could take. So they should have left it, but instead of just fixing the late game, they ruined the early game and replaced the late game of WOL with a just as terrible (if not worse) late game in HOTS featuring mass Swarmhosts. In LOTV, they chopped out most of the early game, but did finally make some improvements to the late game.
If only they had taken a more hands off approach in SC2 as they had in BW.
On July 02 2016 11:53 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hyperbole aside, SC2 still takes skill, you still earn things, even expansions to an extent.
But as mentioned, the skill set is different, and it is clear that fans do not favor the predictable cookie cutter skillset that is now favored.
I also want to say that I don't find the harass units difficult to cope with in LOTV. I don't really find LOTV that hard actually in general. Sure it is the faster, but speed was never the issue in WOL. The hard part of WOL was getting to the late game, once I reached it, I took a deep breath.
Now I'm already there. Unfortunately it was the worst part of the game in WOL and while improved in LOTV it isn't as good as the early game in WOL. I tired very quickly of every PvT late in WOL being a 10-15 minute build up (because I defended drops well) to end with an 8 second fight between two huge armies where a single micro mistake could cost you the game. That was boring. The damage was too extreme and there was no chance to comeback.
The same is true today. I honest to god do not know what you mean by the cookie cutter skillset. If you are meaning the meta, you just gotta deal with it because its in every single online game ever made. If you are meaning the Korean pros lining up every build times and stuff, I think that's inevitable if you want to get better, and its just the fate of eSports games (Even CSGO has a gun buy order in the higher leagues.) If you are meaning multitasking and macroing, just stop RTS because it is not the right genre for you. There is no need to get stressed over a game if its most basic thing doesn't appeal.
Since we are being honest with God, now, I don't think you're understanding any of what I'm saying.
Blizzard created "harass" tools that are used the same by everyone, just as a cookie cutter produces the same result for everyone (provided they are used correctly).
They aren't intense or unpredictable to use, so they are boring.
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