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Good stuff, this is how the patches should be, multiple light nerfs and buffs across the board dealing with problematic units and underused units only.
The Liberator nerf is a god send, mass Liberator in the end game is ridiculous, even if it leads to Terran struggling a bit, I'd be more then happy for other areas of Terran to get buffed to compensate, but I think this nerf is alot more gentle then Terran players would like to let on. Mass Liberator is just OP, they shouldn't walk all over Zerg dedicated anti air units (Corruptors) considering Zerg's anti air is still to this day the worst in the game. Parasitic Bomb is great but is was nerfed fairly hard and you need probably 3 - 4 bombs just to kill the Liberators, more like 5 - 7 if the Terran can split his Liberators to any degree. That's a huge gas investment and a huge sure to die chance just to deal with a unit that can be reactored off of a Starport.
Really anxious to see how ZvP shapes up, Immortals are without a doubt over performing but the match up was only semi balanced on a razors edge, so we'll see if Protoss win rates drastically dip or not.
The changes to the Cyclone and Swarm Hosts are quite literally useless, the problem with these units isn't the cost or the supply, it's how they work. Change the Cyclone to be an all purpose massable (but not overpowered) factory foot men unit that can provide mobile anti - air for mech armies and change the Swarm Host to...well...pretty much anything else then what it does. At least change it so it has some type of identity and strategic value, why would I ever build Swarm Hosts to siege when I can build Lurkers which come from my general combat soldiers or just spend that gas on Greater Spire? I wouldn't even care if they removed the unit from the game at this point.
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hmm.. so the thor change isnt for air attack like it was said before?
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Frost + King Sejong + Frozen Temple
Winter is coming
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Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit.
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On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit.
I don't think the liberator nerf will make any difference at the pro level. 99% of terrans allin the zerg before they get to hive anyway, this nerf won't make any difference because lategame just isn't played at the moment.
The only thing it does is removing the Maru + Show Spoiler + mass liberator build.
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On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit.
10 liberators still can BTFO a bunch of corruptors in 4 hits and that liberator count is not true in late game.
Trust me, mass liberator is still pain in the ass and zerg players won't have a ezpz A-move time.
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Meh I never liked the Liberator and I'm Terran myself. Yet another unit that has to deploy before it can do things.
Atleast the Siege Tank was fun to play with. I'd rather be able to Reactor those out lol.
Also, it's been a while for me, but the Cyclone now has the same supply as a Tempest? Huh.
Cyclone would've been decent if it could kill stuff at a decent rate and not require such a short lock-on where it can get killed.
You could then reduce the leash range to balance things out. 4 supply for a Cyclone now? There are much better uses for 4 supply. If I want long range AA, I'll get two Vikings. And I can land the Vikings. If I want stuff on the ground I'll get two Hellions or a Siege Tank and a Marine.
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On May 18 2016 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. I don't think the liberator nerf will make any difference at the pro level. 99% of terrans allin the zerg before they get to hive anyway, this nerf won't make any difference because lategame just isn't played at the moment. The only thing it does is removing the Maru + Show Spoiler + mass liberator build.
Sure, but it still doesn't make sense. There's not a balance problem they're solving here and if anything is taking an existing design problem and exacerbating it. They're nerfing it because of what, just people whining about it? They at least should be considering compensatory options that impact the tvz lategame specifically. Touching battlecruisers or something maybe.
However, what if zerg starts figuring out how to better balance defense or maps change and allow getting to late game easier? Then we have a repeat of blord/infestor style gameplay on our hands, which the balance team should be proactive about avoiding.
On May 18 2016 05:21 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. 10 liberators still can BTFO a bunch of corruptors in 4 hits and that liberator count is not true in late game. Trust me, mass liberator is still pain in the ass and zerg players won't have a ezpz A-move time.
With a tiny amount of micro corruptors will very cost effectively kick the crap out of very large numbers of liberators post-patch and that's without considering parasitic bomb use.
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On May 18 2016 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. I don't think the liberator nerf will make any difference at the pro level. 99% of terrans allin the zerg before they get to hive anyway, this nerf won't make any difference because lategame just isn't played at the moment. The only thing it does is removing the Maru + Show Spoiler + mass liberator build.
That's just not true, there were tons of late game TvZ at pro level these past weeks and the terrans didn't always lost, far from that.
+ Show Spoiler +you're not comparing Maru vs solar -and TY few last TvZ - to what Avilo does, are you?
Other than this, I'm kind of sad about the removal of XNT on frozen temple, I like maps where you have to control XNT before attacking. But, well, if pros said it had to be done, so be it...
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On May 18 2016 05:52 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. I don't think the liberator nerf will make any difference at the pro level. 99% of terrans allin the zerg before they get to hive anyway, this nerf won't make any difference because lategame just isn't played at the moment. The only thing it does is removing the Maru + Show Spoiler + mass liberator build. Sure, but it still doesn't make sense. There's not a balance problem they're solving here and if anything is taking an existing design problem and exacerbating it. They're nerfing it because of what, just people whining about it? They at least should be considering compensatory options that impact the tvz lategame specifically. Touching battlecruisers or something maybe. However, what if zerg starts figuring out how to better balance defense or maps change and allow getting to late game easier? Then we have a repeat of blord/infestor style gameplay on our hands, which the balance team should be proactive about avoiding. Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 05:21 seemsgood wrote:On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. 10 liberators still can BTFO a bunch of corruptors in 4 hits and that liberator count is not true in late game. Trust me, mass liberator is still pain in the ass and zerg players won't have a ezpz A-move time. With a tiny amount of micro corruptors will very cost effectively kick the crap out of very large numbers of liberators post-patch and that's without considering parasitic bomb use.
I don't see it in pro game :-/ From my perspective,they just weaken the timer for zerg no more no less,ghost + liberator is still very strong even with the nerf.
Unless pros prove me wrong.
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On May 18 2016 06:43 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 05:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 18 2016 04:59 TheWinks wrote:
Nerfing terran in lategame TvZ without compensation makes no sense at all nor does trying to make a lateral change with the cyclone. Terran is avoiding TvZ lategame like they did during blord/infestor and HotS tvp despite these 'OP' liberators and the cyclone isn't used because it's just a bad unit. I don't think the liberator nerf will make any difference at the pro level. 99% of terrans allin the zerg before they get to hive anyway, this nerf won't make any difference because lategame just isn't played at the moment. The only thing it does is removing the Maru + Show Spoiler + mass liberator build. That's just not true, there were tons of late game TvZ at pro level these past weeks and the terrans didn't always lost, far from that.
really? I watch tons of pro level games and can't remember a lategame tvz in the past 1-2 months which terran won. At least in korea I'm pretty sure there hasn't been one and in the last 2 dreamhacks I haven't seen one either.
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I can't believe they're going through the cyclone and SH supply changes. Who'll be stupid enough to invest 4 supply into 120 hp. Even 2 infestors have 180 hps rofl.
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The Cyclone dies to fast for it's cost and now supply. The same supply as a Tempest, jesus!
I like the Thor and the Immortal changes.
Some steps in the right direction IMO. At this rate in a short 3-4 years things might start to look good 
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I still don't believe liberator damage needs to be nerfed like that. It's not the Lib's fault that players can't split or magic box their air units properly. Is there something that I'm not seeing?
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On May 18 2016 03:32 pundurs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 03:30 Gullis wrote:
In the Thor thing, what do they mean with real time? Isn't in game time real time now? Perhaps the engine still runs in blizzard time, so they have to recalculate it to real time manually. Just a theory.
It absolutely does.
I have no idea why they didn't just fix the engine directly instead of "just" changing all the GUI information and the displayed clock. The best guess I could come up with is that they were worried that rounding the numbers (since "faster" isn't exactly 1.4 times "fast" and the engine stores things in 1 / 80ths (I think that's the fraction) instead of a true floating point number) could affect balance so they decided it was "easier" to just paper over the truth.
Most of Blizzard's posts are about the engine time for a given thing (think HotS time). It's confusing only because they didn't change the engine, so they actually contend with two different concepts of time now.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Additionally, in agreement with the feedback from both our top pros and our community, we will be adding both Frost and King Sejong while removing Prion Terraces and Korhal Carnage during the upcoming balance patch.
THANK YOU. Long overdue on Prion but better late than never. KCK hasn't seem much play, but i'm not sure that it ever would
This patch is a breath of fresh air in more than one way. Map removals that will improve competitive play and balance, some compromised changes in good ways (5+2, thor multi-mode)
The immortal nerf will also open up other changes to protoss if they are neccesary without too much power being concentrated in one area; particularly i think that PvZ may dip again and PvP may become more dominated by stargate play, but we'll see when we get a few hundred pro games on the patch.
TLPD stats for Prion as of now:
TvZ: 89-114 (43.8%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 140-70 (66.7%) [ Games ]
PvT: 79-54 (59.4%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 57 TvT | 201 ZvZ | 52 PvP
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On May 18 2016 07:43 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 03:32 pundurs wrote:On May 18 2016 03:30 Gullis wrote:
In the Thor thing, what do they mean with real time? Isn't in game time real time now? Perhaps the engine still runs in blizzard time, so they have to recalculate it to real time manually. Just a theory. It absolutely does. I have no idea why they didn't just fix the engine directly instead of "just" changing all the GUI information and the displayed clock. The best guess I could come up with is that they were worried that rounding the numbers (since "faster" isn't exactly 1.4 times "fast" and the engine stores things in 1 / 80ths (I think that's the fraction) instead of a true floating point number) could affect balance so they decided it was "easier" to just paper over the truth. Most of Blizzard's posts are about the engine time for a given thing (think HotS time). It's confusing only because they didn't change the engine, so they actually contend with two different concepts of time now.
Changing all the engine values could cause problems with values already being hardcoded elsewhere, and would also force people to relearn stuff. It isn't confusing for them, since they can just continue to use the same values they always have used. It's only confusing when communicating with the public.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
The Liberator nerf is a god send, mass Liberator in the end game is ridiculous, even if it leads to Terran struggling a bit, I'd be more then happy for other areas of Terran to get buffed to compensate
Really anxious to see how ZvP shapes up, Immortals are without a doubt over performing but the match up was only semi balanced on a razors edge, so we'll see if Protoss win rates drastically dip or not.
I think it's a similar situation for immortal as you described for liberator. Immortal plays a huge role in PvZ right now, a big enough role in PvT for the nerf to be felt a little and influences tech v tech interactions in pvp (where stargate has been quite dominant in LOTV). For stargate discussions in particular you can see this thread - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/505739-a-change-to-the-oracle - where there is discussion of changing the oracle to armored or similar changes like improving stalker AA-vs-light damage.
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On May 18 2016 04:38 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Good stuff, this is how the patches should be, multiple light nerfs and buffs across the board dealing with problematic units and underused units only.
The Liberator nerf is a god send, mass Liberator in the end game is ridiculous, even if it leads to Terran struggling a bit, I'd be more then happy for other areas of Terran to get buffed to compensate, but I think this nerf is alot more gentle then Terran players would like to let on. Mass Liberator is just OP, they shouldn't walk all over Zerg dedicated anti air units (Corruptors) considering Zerg's anti air is still to this day the worst in the game. Parasitic Bomb is great but is was nerfed fairly hard and you need probably 3 - 4 bombs just to kill the Liberators, more like 5 - 7 if the Terran can split his Liberators to any degree. That's a huge gas investment and a huge sure to die chance just to deal with a unit that can be reactored off of a Starport.
I'm fine with the Lib nerf, as long as they eventually reduce Ultra armor by 1. Just 1, not more.
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EPT
