EPTPost Mortem on the Last Test map - May 12 - Page 3
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16016 Posts
On May 13 2016 09:45 Cyro wrote: What exact situations do you think that adepts are a problem in? I have not seen many particularly problematic situations recently (esp since -1 damage for 3-shot on scv's and marines) adepts are so good in killing workers that it's extremely risky in tvp to move out at all before you have your base fully covered with bunkers/turrets. if 1 warpprism gets in when your army is out on the map the game is almost over because adepts kill workers at an insane speed and terran doesn't have units that can kill them very fast so your reinforcements won't do much vs an adept warpin. can't really speak for zvp but from what I've seen they are very good there too. a good example for that is this game where at 11:30 dream was out on the map while trap dropped only 4 adepts(didn't even warpin additional ones) in dreams main and killed 23 workers in seconds | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Liberator and thor tweaks are somewhat elegent though, but they're still making all SP and facto unit bio support, instead of adressing fucking non viability of mech and overall absence of diversity for terran play | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
This happens to protoss quite often as well and in many of the matchups that don't involve a protoss. Why is this an adept/protoss issue? The same supply of marines kills workers literally twice as fast and this happens in all three terran matchups and has done for the last 5 or 6 years. If there's a case for nerfing anything i'd expect it to be the warp prism pickup range. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On May 13 2016 11:52 Cyro wrote: @Charoisaur This happens to protoss quite often as well. Why is this an adept/protoss issue? The same supply of marines kills workers roughly twice as fast and this happens in all three terran matchups and has done for the last 5 or 6 years. Problem with the adept is that defending it needs to have twice the amount you need to actually defend the adepts because they threaten 2 locations at once, passing through any static defence. Also because terran doesn't have any real anti drop defense except for turrets. Can't put 2 canons in your main and overcharge supplies | ||
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Paulfirelordmu
10 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16016 Posts
On May 13 2016 11:52 Cyro wrote: @Charoisaur This happens to protoss quite often as well and in many of the matchups that don't involve a protoss. Why is this an adept/protoss issue? The same supply of marines kills workers literally twice as fast and this happens in all three terran matchups and has done for the last 5 or 6 years. If there's a case for nerfing anything i'd expect it to be the warp prism pickup range. protoss has pylon overcharge to defend their bases and protoss units kill marines a lot faster than terran units kill adepts so the marines have less time to do damage. when protoss gets adepts into a mineral line they still do a ton of damage even when your army is in position because marines and marauders need so long to kill adepts I want to see that game where 8 marines kill 23 probes | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
overcharge supplies Overcharge exists because P is the most vulnerable of the 3 races without it I want to see that game where 8 marines kill 23 probes That vid was actually quite underwhelming. If you're being attacked by 8 stimmed marines as protoss or zerg and you show up with 2 stalkers or 8 zerglings, you'll just lose them and continue losing workers. This has happened time and time again hundreds of times over the lifespan of pro sc2. In this particular game they both drop at the same time; T flies through a cannon, drops 8 supply and doesn't stim - there are 4 supply of adepts w/ resonating and an upgrade advantage waiting next to the cannon. If that terran was looking at his base, he would have controlled better and either attacked with or ran away with his workers. He should have lost significantly less (with proper control and planning) and what he did lose would have been deserved in that case as upgraded t1 units have always had the potential to deal significant damage in sc2. Protoss has historically been the worst at this but Legacy brought them more up to par. In a game where a terran drops 8 stimmed marines w/ a medivac and drones/probes are not pulled but 5 supply of units show up halfway through the drop to defend, i'm sure you'll find plenty of games where 23 workers die. People don't leave their workers and defense like that in high level play unless they're having a lot of trouble multitasking. This is also something that everyone has seen so many times in pro play (either with good defense or bad defense) but they're just not accustomed to seeing protoss have that same capability so there are some alarm bells going off. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 13 2016 12:41 Cyro wrote: Overcharge exists because P is the most vulnerable of the 3 races without it Overcharge exists to prevent one base PvP. That's why it was created. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
On May 13 2016 12:48 TheWinks wrote: Overcharge exists to prevent one base PvP. That's why it was created. That's absolutely true but these days it's arguably more important in PvZ because it actually affects balance (instead of PvP where it only affects design) and zerg has several early attacks that are balanced around overcharge existing | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 13 2016 12:50 Cyro wrote: That's absolutely true but these days it's arguably more important in PvZ because it actually affects balance (instead of PvP where it only affects design) and zerg has several early attacks that are balanced around overcharge existing There's no denying that the other matchups have to be balanced around its existence, but it isn't the 'fault' of zerg/terran being too powerful, it's ironically the fault of protoss being too powerful. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
On May 13 2016 13:06 TheWinks wrote: There's no denying that the other matchups have to be balanced around its existence, but it isn't the 'fault' of zerg/terran being too powerful, it's ironically the fault of protoss being too powerful. They reset ZvP / PvZ some 14 months ago and did the balance from scratch with both sets of new and overpowered stuff cancelling eachother out (overcharge vs hatch tech drop, hatch tech overlord speed and ravagers) | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
I'm still not sure why Blizz are not touching Liberator anti-ground, it's ridiculously strong especially once T gets the range upgrade. It's almost impossible to take a good engagement as Protoss when they're sieged up given the insane AG damage plus the bio clump kept nearby. Sure Protoss has Tempests but we need to be able to get there. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 13 2016 11:52 Cyro wrote: @Charoisaur This happens to protoss quite often as well and in many of the matchups that don't involve a protoss. Why is this an adept/protoss issue? The same supply of marines kills workers literally twice as fast and this happens in all three terran matchups and has done for the last 5 or 6 years. If there's a case for nerfing anything i'd expect it to be the warp prism pickup range. I think the difference between them and marines or lings is that the later can get killed very fast. So newly produced units can fight lowish numbers of marines and lings, but with Adepts, Marines get killed by them, Hellions get killed. So they kill shit fast AND they are very resilient. They are a massive pain for me. | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On May 13 2016 17:49 KatatoniK wrote: I'm still not sure why Blizz are not touching Liberator anti-ground Because they realize Terran is too weak without that damage and don't want to change a bunch other units along with the liberator. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On May 13 2016 11:01 Charoisaur wrote: adepts are so good in killing workers that it's extremely risky in tvp to move out at all before you have your base fully covered with bunkers/turrets. if 1 warpprism gets in when your army is out on the map the game is almost over because adepts kill workers at an insane speed and terran doesn't have units that can kill them very fast so your reinforcements won't do much vs an adept warpin. can't really speak for zvp but from what I've seen they are very good there too. a good example for that is this game where at 11:30 dream was out on the map while trap dropped only 4 adepts(didn't even warpin additional ones) in dreams main and killed 23 workers in seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ArXN4q8hrY I don't know if that game illustrates your point, because that was an incredibly close match on both sides, despite Terran never really taking any spectacular advantages yet Protoss destroying a significant amounts of workers, since Terran tends to stay in the game with Mules. This might be evidence for Adept's harass potential being perfectly in line with counteracting Terran's other strengths. One thing I did notice was the relative ease of sniping Nexi though, something Adepts are woefully terrible at. Both races seem to have their strengths, but neither party seems to have advantages too overpowered to make unilateral changes. On May 13 2016 12:07 JackONeill wrote: Problem with the adept is that defending it needs to have twice the amount you need to actually defend the adepts because they threaten 2 locations at once, passing through any static defence. Also because terran doesn't have any real anti drop defense except for turrets. Can't put 2 canons in your main and overcharge supplies Terrans can much more easily redrop to other bases. I think TY exemplifies this pretty well, where even Zest couldn't handle it in the GSL finals g1. I would also argue Turrets are more desirable than Cannons for your typical harass because of their air DPS, relative cheapness, and air priority are desirable. If Terrans dedicated a Liberator to defense, they could accomplish similar things to MsC, or even a bunker. Protoss is somewhat forced into dedicated AtA when ranged Liberators come along. No Protoss harass unit can do that level of damage with already present ground defense. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
Throw in a tempest supply change to 5 or 6 and we're golden. Good job DK. | ||
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raff1001
16 Posts
On May 13 2016 18:38 [PkF] Wire wrote: When you've lost hope for SC2 after countless painfully out of touch updates (the +bio AA cannon change being the most remarkable one), DK throws at you incredibly sensible updates that may actually make the game reach the best state it has been in for ages. Throw in a tempest supply change to 5 or 6 and we're golden. Good job DK. I agree so badly,4 supply tempest should be one of next changes | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On May 13 2016 18:29 Cloak wrote: Terrans can much more easily redrop to other bases. I think TY exemplifies this pretty well, where even Zest couldn't handle it in the GSL finals g1. I would also argue Turrets are more desirable than Cannons for your typical harass because of their air DPS, relative cheapness, and air priority are desirable. If Terrans dedicated a Liberator to defense, they could accomplish similar things to MsC, or even a bunker. Protoss is somewhat forced into dedicated AtA when ranged Liberators come along. No Protoss harass unit can do that level of damage with already present ground defense. 1) redrop to their bases : what? How does that remotely compares to fucking warpin?? 2) TY stated that protoss is OP atm. And it's fun that you bring up this series that showed everything that was wrong with TvP xD 3) turrets > canons? Really? Against adept harass? Okay then let's drop 4 adepts in a mineral line with a canon and a mineral line with a turret rofl 4) bunker are already used against drop adepts to little efficiency since you can just shade where the bunker doesn't cover the mineral line. And dude no you can't cover a mineral line with a liberator, you can only chase the prism. And achieve similar things to MsC? Really? Between paying 100/100 to transform all my supplies in 40 dmg high ROF photon canons ? XD Dude do you even watch starcraft? I'm fine with people arguing that the liberator is OP, because it is and it's the only reason why terrans are still somewhat performing at high level, but don't even start to talk about harass because every single TvP pro game shows a terran in foeutal position early game against protoss harass. On May 13 2016 19:05 raff1001 wrote: I agree so badly,4 supply tempest should be one of next changes That's something that needs to happen. However it's kinda obvious DK doesn't know what to do with supply, since 4 supply cyclones and SH are both ridiculous propositions. | ||
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