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Hey everyone. As we mentioned in the feedback update this week, we want to communicate how ideas are progressing more frequently. Below are our thoughts around topics from the last Balance Test Map.
Photon Cannon Change
- This change wasn’t targeted at the pro level
- Our understanding is that the community is now against this change. We will pull this change, unless you point out that this isn’t the case.
Swarm Host Cost Reduction
- We still believe bringing Swarm Hosts back into play in this redesigned version is good, and we’ll continue with this change.
Thor/Liberator
- This seems like a good change in terms of unit diversity.
- We can also explore other mech diversity changes, and Cyclone is something that we can definitely look to test as many of you want (let us know if we’re wrong).
Banshee Tech Requirement Reduction
- Our understanding is that the community was heavily against this change, so we’re pulling it unless you point out that this isn’t the case.
We are also working on a list of added changes such as Immortal Barrier nerf, Colossus attack speed buff, and Cyclone changes. We'll have more details on these this week as well.
Source
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as a person who did heavy test map testing during thor flat splash period, let me offer some opinion on the thor change
I really don't like it- I believe that single target long range AA should go into cyclone and make it cheaper/more disposable instead of the current mess of the lock on mechanics.
Even if the above wasn't possible, Thor being single target could use more help in that department as it is losing the splash damage
Now onto my points:
Thor change:
Thor change is really overall nerf to utility of the unit- Thor is 6 supply unit that does 35+15- numbers may look impressive at glance, but it really is population inefficient. Its not really useful at all but vs broodlords- which it doesn't do great against since both sides can kite each other and broodlings block the thors. Thors also have clunky firing delay that worked with burst damage nature of the javline missles, but doesn't work as well with faster-firing current change missles.
Not only that, the damage isn't really great- 25 air DPS vs armored for 6 pop unit isn't really "worth" it when its huge, blocky (blocks other thor from firing at same time) when vikings can stack and do just as well and offer fast, reliable single target focus-
You may argue that Parasitic bomb is a big threat for the vikings, but binding cloud does just as much vs AA thors in denying damage. There is no real reason to make thors against lategame air except in TvT when it becomes liberator coutner.
For comparison, Vikings do 19.6 single target DPS vs armored air, while thor offers 25 single target dps. Thors cost 6 supply while vikings cost 2 and is more mobile. There is no real incentive to make thors for the anti air capacity when it does so poorly. It had its niche as AA vs muta in past, now it doesn't do anything much.
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build diversity:
Also, opening factory is difficult now with 2 base muta becoming a much larger threat- turret+thor isn't enough anymore vs 2 base muta openers since thors do so poorly against mutas as it became a single target 17.5 dps unit-
What made thors great vs muta was the splash and also the burst damage of thor that punished mutas flying into base. Thor offered an instant, splash damage response but with change, it doesn't anymore. Thor right now offers 14 dps over 3 seconds with small splash, while the change makes thor a 17.5 dps SINGLE target over 2 seconds, which is whole lot worse against mutas.
Not only is it less burst and instantaneously punishing. it loses the splash damage for very minor 3.5 dps upgrade.
Its worse even vs magic boxed muta. Factory openings are simply discouraged with this change going through.
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Canada8160 Posts
Jeez, you could at least format it correctly. So lazy
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The thor "buff" is nice, but as mentioned by jinjin5000 it reduces the build diversity. Also, a 6!!!! supply unit that has such little impact isnt worth it. The old HOTS Thor with alternate fire mode was much better (AOE or impact mode) so the player can decide what to go for. But the impact damage with this buff is not enough, it should be bit more + a bit more range.
Also, take a look at:
Why can we see burrowed widowmines, but not lurkers.
Why does the stasis ward spell not expire and last forever.
Why can the opponent see the liberation zones when they dont have vision on the unit.
Envision lasts way too long for such a cheap spell.
Tempests still 4 supply?
Reduce warprism pickuprange?
Immortals?
Dont make a nova ball a magnet to units?
Why can pylons attack buildings, its just frustrating and doesnt make quality games.
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Cyclone is something that we can definitely look to test as many of you want (let us know if we’re wrong).
NOPE.You are damn right.
You are damn right......
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I like the way they're managing the situation a lot more. I indeed think the cyclone should be given some more love and that the banshee change and the cannon change were plain bad. I also think an immortal nerf, even a slight one, is long overdue : Z should be able to fight a fully fledged chargelot archon immortal army with ground units. Overall a very nice and uplifting update that cheers me up a lot.
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protoss tempest carrier ht ball should be adressed asap, its beyond broken
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So, they're looking to fix one of terran's two completely useless units while they throw one of the almost-useless units into the gutter. In the end, terran will still have 2 useless units. Not to mention putting terran on a timer in tvz, because being on a timer in tvp is so much fun already.
But hey, they're at least bringing the swarm host back!
Also, can someone explain to me, why has the BC been such a trash unit ever since WOL and they haven't even considered looking at it?
But I know, I know, I'm just a dumb balance whiner and should git gud, right?
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
I absolutely hate the reasoning: "the community is against the change" so we aren't going ahead with it. They are the game designers not the community.
If the community brings up good points against the change, by all means consider those points, and pull the changes if necessary, but the community disliking a change isn't of itself a reason not to go ahead with something.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2016 07:00 jinjin5000 wrote:
as a person who did heavy test map testing during thor flat splash period, let me offer some opinion on the thor change
I really don't like it- I believe that single target long range AA should go into cyclone and make it cheaper/more disposable instead of the current mess of the lock on mechanics.
Even if the above wasn't possible, Thor being single target could use more help in that department as it is losing the splash damage
Now onto my points:
Thor change:
Thor change is really overall nerf to utility of the unit- Thor is 6 supply unit that does 35+15- numbers may look impressive at glance, but it really is population inefficient. Its not really useful at all but vs broodlords- which it doesn't do great against since both sides can kite each other and broodlings block the thors. Thors also have clunky firing delay that worked with burst damage nature of the javline missles, but doesn't work as well with faster-firing current change missles.
Not only that, the damage isn't really great- 25 air DPS vs armored for 6 pop unit isn't really "worth" it when its huge, blocky (blocks other thor from firing at same time) when vikings can stack and do just as well and offer fast, reliable single target focus-
You may argue that Parasitic bomb is a big threat for the vikings, but binding cloud does just as much vs AA thors in denying damage. There is no real reason to make thors against lategame air except in TvT when it becomes liberator coutner.
For comparison, Vikings do 19.6 single target DPS vs armored air, while thor offers 25 single target dps. Thors cost 6 supply while vikings cost 2 and is more mobile. There is no real incentive to make thors for the anti air capacity when it does so poorly. It had its niche as AA vs muta in past, now it doesn't do anything much.
---
build diversity:
Also, opening factory is difficult now with 2 base muta becoming a much larger threat- turret+thor isn't enough anymore vs 2 base muta openers since thors do so poorly against mutas as it became a single target 17.5 dps unit-
What made thors great vs muta was the splash and also the burst damage of thor that punished mutas flying into base. Thor offered an instant, splash damage response but with change, it doesn't anymore. Thor right now offers 14 dps over 3 seconds with small splash, while the change makes thor a 17.5 dps SINGLE target over 2 seconds, which is whole lot worse against mutas.
Not only is it less burst and instantaneously punishing. it loses the splash damage for very minor 3.5 dps upgrade.
Its worse even vs magic boxed muta. Factory openings are simply discouraged with this change going through.
Hey, JinJin, were you able to test any kind of Hellbat Thor composition against Zerg / Protoss? Overall, it is undeniable how cost/supply inefficient Thor ends up being if you try to include it in your army comp, regardless of the change, but in lower numbers it becomes more useful with splash rather than without it.
Speaking of Blinding Cloud, I am wondering if it affects Cyclones Lock-on, if it does not, the focus could go on trying to make the Cyclone reasonably good against Armored Air units (not Armored Ground units). And yet the cyclone suffers from the same as the Thor, being cost/supply inefficient to an extent, oh and very fragile for their supply cost too.
EDIT: There's a thread in the B.net forums that suggests an interesting change to the Cyclone. Wether it is aligned with what Blizzard wants the Cyclone to be or not, this suggestion helps a great deal. There's even a test map for this change.
[10 (+10 Armored) Reactored Cyclone...]
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im relation to thor discussion and cyclone - i would reduce the size of the Thor, the cost and supply cost and basically make a mini goliath single target and then i would buff the cyclone and make it 6 supply and cost 300/200 and a very tanky unit(single target) that can mix wit ultras and immortals and archons late game
Imagine terrans going mech or bio.. mini thors and cyclone micro late game..
im a high master terran have been Gm but this is how i would fix the units..
this is my feedback blizzard
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2016 12:04 ihatevideogames wrote:
So, they're looking to fix one of terran's two completely useless units while they throw one of the almost-useless units into the gutter. In the end, terran will still have 2 useless units. Not to mention putting terran on a timer in tvz, because being on a timer in tvp is so much fun already.
But hey, they're at least bringing the swarm host back!
Also, can someone explain to me, why has the BC been such a trash unit ever since WOL and they haven't even considered looking at it?
But I know, I know, I'm just a dumb balance whiner and should git gud, right?
Exactly! Now you get it  Get good son.
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i, like everyone else am hopeful that some positive changes will eventually come. And Jinjin's post i thought was well thoughtout & reasoned, same with PinoKotsbeer. As someone who reads threads on here & reddit everyday, I cant help but think to myself, here we go again for the millionth time saying what changes they should focus on. The cyclone & thor changes have been suggested over & over & over again. And Blizzard says "they can explore other mech diversity changes." Well if u look back in past threads you can find those exact words from 4 years ago. But they can "definitely look into testing it, Please let us know if were wrong".
This all just gives me a headache.
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I think the cyclone is a prime example of why this balance-by-community method won't work.
Blizzard has an idea of how they want to cyclone to feel and how its going to interact with other units in the game.
The community has an idea of how THEY want it to work and feel.
The two are not the same. So long as blizzard holds strong to their vision of the game, they can't rely on the community to suggest changes- unless the community has the same vision. As soon as a disconnect happens, the system fails.
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Cyclone changes are damn well overdue at this point, remove tankivac and replace the medivacs role of protecting the tanks to the Cyclone which currently has zero useful role in the Terran arsenal.
While your at it, buff the damn Infestor, or maybe shift Blinding Cloud to the Infestor so the Viper can become more specialized to fight mass air and the Infestor can be a useful ground support again. In it's current for, Infestration Pit/Infestors are merely stepping stones to Hive, not a truly viable play style. Fungal Growth does pitiful damage for how difficult it is to land (at least compared to Storm) and everyone knows Infested Terrans were neutered long ago. They are huge and bulky, extremely easy to target, I would even consider a model size reduction a stealth buff at this point.
Nerf the Ultralisk end game armor or revert the Marauder change, theres really no need for both of them, one of the other will do the job. The nerfed Liberator performs remarkably less well against Corruptors (as should be the case if it's going to hard counter Mutalisks) and getting out Ghosts is a bitch and they themselves aren't really that fantastic unless the user is very good with them.
Pretty much, get the other spell casters online with High Templar please, other races want good casters too <3 Well besides the Viper of course, but Ghosts/Infestors definitely need to be buffed.
Remove Colossus from the game and turn the Disruptor into the Reaver, there ya go, problem solved.
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It's weird how the cannon and banshee changes are being pulled by them saying it's a result of the 'community' while the sh changes are going forward despite a ton of people not wanting to see sh again.
Are they actually trying to listen (not that this will ever work) or are they just using this as an excuse to do what they want?
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I really dislike the chosen nerf for the liberator AA. The system of hardcounters in this game is already brutal, this only makes it even more clear. Also promotes more mass air play vs liberators, which is just awful.
Really wish the liberator design would have never been this flying siege tank with some anti-air mode on top. It's creating a whole bunch of problems. Why can't we just have the good old strong siege tank on the ground and a new valkyrie on the air instead T_T
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I also agree with jinjin5000 that the AA anti armor role could be much better served by Cyclones. With a rebalance to be cheaper and a rework on the lock-on mechanic, a more cost effective and supply efficient solution is needed from the factory.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On May 06 2016 08:05 Mojzii1 wrote:
protoss tempest carrier ht ball should be adressed asap, its beyond broken
Which is why it was used exactly 0 times in the recent GSL finals
for all of the complaints that this style of play gets, i don't see it very often at all. The stuff like 3-5 minute all-in attacks occur far more often because there is no gamestate pre-requisite for them to happen
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Hey all we are pulling the change, unless you like the change again? Do you like it now or no? We can put it back in if you want? No take it out? I can leave it if you want....
Blizzard is that annoying friend that just tries to hard. Just focus on designing units that are fun to use. Cool, diverse, fun units in the game then let the game balance itself as people figure things out. To much worrying about perfect balance not enough focus on just making the game fun.
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EPT
