EPTJust give the cyclone some more HP so it can get in there, lock on, and start to kite without dieing. Also, reduce its gas cost. My god that thing is expensive.
I personally liked the cannon change though so who am I to know what is best haha
Post Mortem on the last Test Map - May 5 - Page 2
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Kiwan
Australia36 Posts
Just give the cyclone some more HP so it can get in there, lock on, and start to kite without dieing. Also, reduce its gas cost. My god that thing is expensive. I personally liked the cannon change though so who am I to know what is best haha | ||
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CyanApple
48 Posts
Tank, Thor, Hellion, Medivac Hellions with Thor at the front, so the Thor is protected from fast, light units while it can shoot at heavily armored air. Plus backup from Tank in the back to clear armored units on the ground. Enough Medivacs to transport tanks and thors, so you can move out and to hold positions even better by using hellbats, which can then be healed. As I am not that experienced, I don't know what the composition (in terms of numbers) would look like and whether it's feasible with Stargate and Factory only. But to me it looks like an interesting composition that I would like to see discussed (maybe even with and without siegevacs). Edit: light air units would be a problem of course, but you can go for liberators/vikings. Whether you get into supply problems at that point, I don't know. But maybe you'd rather have a lib based army in midgame and transition into the composition I proposed. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1151 Posts
LOTV is a fast paced game where the better mirco of units like disruptor, cyclone, reaper, viper, wins Try to bring those two togehter. | ||
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plouer
France32 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 06 2016 18:42 CyanApple wrote: With the new Thor, wouldn't the following unit composition allow for really interesting fights? Tank, Thor, Hellion, Medivac Hellions with Thor at the front, so the Thor is protected from fast, light units while it can shoot at heavily armored air. Plus backup from Tank in the back to clear armored units on the ground. Enough Medivacs to transport tanks and thors, so you can move out and to hold positions even better by using hellbats, which can then be healed. As I am not that experienced, I don't know what the composition (in terms of numbers) would look like and whether it's feasible with Stargate and Factory only. But to me it looks like an interesting composition that I would like to see discussed (maybe even with and without siegevacs). With Thor single AA target you lack anti air big time with that comp. That's why TvT you had Hellion Tank Viking, or Tank Hellion Thor Viking, etc. Thor anti light, Viking anti everything. If you add Medivacs and maybe Liberators you now have 100 different types of units and a small army. I've always thought that an army that makes for good games, should have 2 core units, and 1 or 2 for support. So Hellion-Tank core, with Cyclone-mine support, or Thor-Viking, or any other. But when you have to many support units or to many core units it becomes a silly deathball army IMO and one that can not split to cover the map, since 15 units depend on each other to do a job. In LOTV, i think a Tank-Hellion army could be a good core, with Cyclones for anti armor air for support and a few Mines or a few Medivacs or Liberators as the case might be. Right now this is not possible IMO because the core is already 3 must have units in Tank, Medivac, Hellion, and none of them shoot up; so you need at least 2 more in either Vikings or Thors or Cyclones. To many units. Solution? Buff Tank dmg so it's not so dependent on medivac micro  | ||
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kugHop
Luxembourg44 Posts
But talking about Thors, did Blizzard reduce its size as it did with Ultras or did I miss something? Also I think that the Cyclone is godd early game to defend prisms or fend of dropships but making it more tanky and/or stronger will in my mind just develop terran late game into "kite to win". | ||
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CyanApple
48 Posts
On May 06 2016 19:11 Sapphire.lux wrote: With Thor single AA target you lack anti air big time with that comp. That's why TvT you had Hellion Tank Viking, or Tank Hellion Thor Viking, etc. Thor anti light, Viking anti everything. If you add Medivacs and maybe Liberators you now have 100 different types of units and a small army. I've always thought that an army that makes for good games, should have 2 core units, and 1 or 2 for support. So Hellion-Tank core, with Cyclone-mine support, or Thor-Viking, or any other. But when you have to many support units or to many core units it becomes a silly deathball army IMO and one that can not split to cover the map, since 15 units depend on each other to do a job. In LOTV, i think a Tank-Hellion army could be a good core, with Cyclones for anti armor air for support and a few Mines or a few Medivacs or Liberators as the case might be. Right now this is not possible IMO because the core is already 3 must have units in Tank, Medivac, Hellion, and none of them shoot up; so you need at least 2 more in either Vikings or Thors or Cyclones. To many units. Solution? Buff Tank dmg so it's not so dependent on medivac micro That doesn't change the immobility of the overall army,though. I think the medivac is necessary to have non-turtling mech with the units designed as they are now(immobile). For the medivac to be of better use in such a battle, it maybe should be able to repair mech? Also see my edit above: In midgame the thor should be replaced by libs/vikings. I'm interested whether the proposed unit comp would actually do well in lategame fights vZ and vP.(TvT already uses mech and thor change wouldn't change much i guess) | ||
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PressureSC2
122 Posts
If a Terran player has played a good macro game and scouted well, it should be possible to produce the right army to deal with BL and/or Tempest. If the Thor will remain clunky, lower range, and more of a "mixed use unit", the Cyclone will need to fill a longer range anti-air role like the Goliath did in BW. It would go a long way in making the game enjoyable. Otherwise, there will continue to be issues with design. Please note that we are absolutely not looking for an overpowered solution here, just having a chance to have the better player come out in the later game. For all I care, make the range upgrade to the Cyclone expensive and add it to the Fusion Core. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
On May 06 2016 12:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I absolutely hate the reasoning: "the community is against the change" so we aren't going ahead with it. They are the game designers not the community. If the community brings up good points against the change, by all means consider those points, and pull the changes if necessary, but the community disliking a change isn't of itself a reason not to go ahead with something. And the inconsistency? "We still believe bringing Swarm Hosts back into play in this redesigned version is good, and we’ll continue with this change". One change they aren't going ahead because the community is against it, the other the are going regardless... So, what's the reasoning behind these decisions exactly? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On May 06 2016 18:19 Cyro wrote: Which is why it was used exactly 0 times in the recent GSL finals for all of the complaints that this style of play gets, i don't see it very often at all. The stuff like 3-5 minute all-in attacks occur far more often because there is no gamestate pre-requisite for them to happen do you know why it's so rarely seen at the pro level? It's the same reason ultralisks are rarely seen. Terran has to allin before that unit composition gets into play because it's almost impossible to beat. I hate that "kill him before he gets there" design because it takes the strategy out of the game. Everything comes down to the execution of the timing attack and strategy barely matters anymore. this also applies to zvp | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On May 07 2016 01:15 Charoisaur wrote: do you know why it's so rarely seen at the pro level? It's the same reason ultralisks are rarely seen. Terran has to allin before that unit composition gets into play because it's almost impossible to beat. I hate that "kill him before he gets there" design because it takes the strategy out of the game. Everything comes down to the execution of the timing attack and strategy barely matters anymore. Maybe if you set the timer even lower and make the players switch sides after 15 matches, it could be a really popular game | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On May 07 2016 01:17 neptunusfisk wrote: Maybe if you set the timer even lower and make the players switch sides after 15 matches, it could be a really popular game I have no idea what you want to say | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
that having a defensive side and one that's aggressive on a timer isn't inherently bad design | ||
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Creager
Germany1924 Posts
He is hinting at SC2 not being CS:GO, not sure what he wants to accomplish here, though. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On May 07 2016 01:48 neptunusfisk wrote: that having a defensive side and one that's aggressive on a timer isn't inherently bad design examples of successful games implementing this design: 1. starcraft brood war: terran mech was pretty much ridiculously unbeatable straight up: protoss needs to attack you before you max out or seriously outmultitask you when you have 2. counter-strike: if you are terrorist and dont plant the bomb or kill the CTs before the round ends you lose 3. tetris: if you dont move the stuff before they fill up the screen you lose | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
On May 06 2016 06:58 Wrath wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hey everyone. As we mentioned in the feedback update this week, we want to communicate how ideas are progressing more frequently. Below are our thoughts around topics from the last Balance Test Map. Photon Cannon Change
Swarm Host Cost Reduction
Thor/Liberator
Banshee Tech Requirement Reduction
We are also working on a list of added changes such as Immortal Barrier nerf and Cyclone changes. We'll have more details on these this week as well. Source Colossus Attack speed? The problem was protoss players didn't have to watch their army; how does this make it better? I guess I have some thoughts on this preemptively. The problem with colossus in hots was that it was hard to push into them because they would mow down light units so fast. I don't mind seeing colossus right, but like what happens is they were easily massed and made it so that the protoss did not have to watch their army while the other players did. Once they had even a small number of them ~5 they shot fast enough you couldn't really push them in a fight. I feel like increasing the attack speed of colossus is going the wrong way. i think what makes more sense is that they fire slower, not faster with more damage so that you can still push on them. Like maru used to do a lot of early timings and pull 2-3 marauders forward to tank the first shots and try and push in with the delay. It was beautiful micro and what set him apart was that protoss players that weren't watching their colossus in low numbers (1-2) could still lose them. If they fire faster, i don't see this window existing. (I can provide several maru proleague hots games for help with this) I would like a little clarification on what games you are watching with the colossus or fights that are happening that make this seem like the right way to go. I could see i guess it as an ability that you cast over a few seconds maybe, but as a baseline buff, I feel like its even worse than protoss was before. I would prefer that this was somehow attached to sentries. Like sentries cast a buff on colossus so that they fire faster. Thus a colossus scaling would lose part of its army to make that push happen, but even then i could just see protoss players casting on colossus without ever having to look at their army if the colossus had the ability on it. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 07 2016 01:53 neptunusfisk wrote: examples of successful games implementing this design: 1. starcraft brood war: terran mech was pretty much ridiculously unbeatable straight up: protoss needs to attack you before you max out or seriously outmultitask you when you have 2. counter-strike: if you are terrorist and dont plant the bomb or kill the CTs before the round ends you lose 3. tetris: if you dont move the stuff before they fill up the screen you lose Horrible examples, Tetris is a single player game and even if it had multi-player both would play by the same rules. In CS you take turns playing Terrorists and CT, so the better team in a combination of 30 rounds wins, thats like taking turns playing Terran and than Protoss. BW late game terran wasn't unbeatable, you could out-multitask it and if the protoss could get there it could also be fought using carriers. BW was pretty much a anomaly anyway given the depth of strategic diversity it offered for all races, the possibility to all-in, play the aggressor or the defender at nearly all stages of the game, based on style not the meta. However one thing that BW did correctly was implement the asymmetric economy, allowing faster rates of mining the more spread out your workers, giving one of the sides the possibility to brute force the turtle at any given point. The beauty of that system is that terran, protoss or zerg could do it and they weren't locked into any racial identity, just that of the player. So yeah, the prevent it before it happens is awfully stale and only really worked in one game, we saw the worst iterations of it in BL/Infestor and SH. If only for the sake of strategic diversity I'd rather there also be a way to fight a late game composition, not just prevent the other race from getting to it. The more options the healthier the game is, it isn't rocket science, its just common sense. | ||
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