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On May 07 2016 01:53 neptunusfisk wrote:
examples of successful games implementing this design:
1. starcraft brood war: terran mech was pretty much ridiculously unbeatable straight up: protoss needs to attack you before you max out or seriously outmultitask you when you have
2. counter-strike: if you are terrorist and dont plant the bomb or kill the CTs before the round ends you lose
3. tetris: if you dont move the stuff before they fill up the screen you lose
Ok, so are we going to make every SC2 game a Bo2 where players swap races and start positions in the second game? Because that's how Counter-Strike is balanced. Tetris is a single-player game and applying single-player design standards to multiplayer is plainly ridiculous. Have you not noticed the huge differences between campaign and MP units?
The only valid comparison you made is Brood War and it's just factually inaccurate. Have you never seen a mech force get wiped out by a carrier fleet before?
A much better comparison would be Supreme Commander / Total Annihilation where tech progress is "linear" and units like the krogoth just stomp all lower tech. But that is not the Starcraft way and there's a reason one of these games came to dominate the RTS genre and the other did not.
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On May 06 2016 19:58 CyanApple wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 19:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 06 2016 18:42 CyanApple wrote:
With the new Thor, wouldn't the following unit composition allow for really interesting fights?
Tank, Thor, Hellion, Medivac
Hellions with Thor at the front, so the Thor is protected from fast, light units while it can shoot at heavily armored air. Plus backup from Tank in the back to clear armored units on the ground.
Enough Medivacs to transport tanks and thors, so you can move out and to hold positions even better by using hellbats, which can then be healed.
As I am not that experienced, I don't know what the composition (in terms of numbers) would look like and whether it's feasible with Stargate and Factory only. But to me it looks like an interesting composition that I would like to see discussed (maybe even with and without siegevacs). With Thor single AA target you lack anti air big time with that comp. That's why TvT you had Hellion Tank Viking, or Tank Hellion Thor Viking, etc. Thor anti light, Viking anti everything. If you add Medivacs and maybe Liberators you now have 100 different types of units and a small army. I've always thought that an army that makes for good games, should have 2 core units, and 1 or 2 for support. So Hellion-Tank core, with Cyclone-mine support, or Thor-Viking, or any other. But when you have to many support units or to many core units it becomes a silly deathball army IMO and one that can not split to cover the map, since 15 units depend on each other to do a job. In LOTV, i think a Tank-Hellion army could be a good core, with Cyclones for anti armor air for support and a few Mines or a few Medivacs or Liberators as the case might be. Right now this is not possible IMO because the core is already 3 must have units in Tank, Medivac, Hellion, and none of them shoot up; so you need at least 2 more in either Vikings or Thors or Cyclones. To many units. Solution? Buff Tank dmg so it's not so dependent on medivac micro  That doesn't change the immobility of the overall army,though. I think the medivac is necessary to have non-turtling mech with the units designed as they are now(immobile). For the medivac to be of better use in such a battle, it maybe should be able to repair mech? Also see my edit above: In midgame the thor should be replaced by libs/vikings. I'm interested whether the proposed unit comp would actually do well in lategame fights vZ and vP.(TvT already uses mech and thor change wouldn't change much i guess)
The lack of mobility is only at the core of firepower and it's a feature, just like bio being weak to AOE. It's poor thinking IMO that all armies have to have some quallity all the time (DK is in a period where he is convinced that speed is the answer for all).
Hellions, Cyclones, Banshees and even mines have good mobility. Having the "strong" unit, the Tank, be slow is what promotes a different thinking and playstyle. If the entire army is mobile and is dependant on medivacs, you only get a bio 2.0. And here is why IMO DK fails in his thinking: he wants Terran to play the same way, but using different units. So then, what is the point of using unit A or unit B if the FEEL of the game is the same? It makes no diferance if you run around and unload a few marauders from a med, or a tank, or a whatever. The FEEL of the game is the same. This gets boring real fast, for me.
As far as "boring" games go, this is about design IMO and not playstyles. Mech was and is fantastic in BW yet crap in SC2. The Tank is the same in both, even stronger in BW actually. It's what happens around it that makes a game fun; it's the synergy of units and game flow.
I already said that i have no expectations from SC2, but it pains me a little that some fans of SC have only seen defensive strategies in the form of Raven-Tank/SH-Viper/Infestor-BL. Yes those were terrible games, but not because mech or defensive strategies are bad, but because Dustin Browder and DK have failed misserably at implementig them. I understand why DK would say mech games were boring, he was part of the design and balance and he's looking to save his arse, but fans should know that it was HIS version of those things that were bad. Good strategy games have always had a variety of playstyles viable, and some of the most admired were the defensive ones, from BW to single player Total War and even SC2 single player.
Granted, it's a more complex game flow to make defensive/mech fun, then just harass-harass-move-move, but maybe that's why BW was so popular for so long and it still is while SC2 feels like it's dying all the time.
+ Show Spoiler +I've always thought that if Blizz had the rights to CS, we would have never had CS Go but a Call of Duty clone. Blizz has really lost it's way in knowing how to exploit what they already have, and it's looking to hard at what others are doing and tryng to make shity copies. SC2 is becoming MOBA-ified IMO: unit abilities over composition, twitch reflex over positioning, etc.
Can't yet tell if it's shity designers or to much ego or Activision orders, but save for Heartstone (a game coming from a small team with little pressure) they have been bad with all their major titles.
They've changed from a leader attitude, to one of "hopefully we'll get a piece of the market". And in the process they've lost the faith of the fans AND failed to get new ones. IMO
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On May 06 2016 06:58 Wrath wrote:Hey everyone. As we mentioned in the feedback update this week, we want to communicate how ideas are progressing more frequently. Below are our thoughts around topics from the last Balance Test Map. Photon Cannon Change
- This change wasn’t targeted at the pro level
- Our understanding is that the community is now against this change. We will pull this change, unless you point out that this isn’t the case.
Swarm Host Cost Reduction
- We still believe bringing Swarm Hosts back into play in this redesigned version is good, and we’ll continue with this change.
Thor/Liberator
- This seems like a good change in terms of unit diversity.
- We can also explore other mech diversity changes, and Cyclone is something that we can definitely look to test as many of you want (let us know if we’re wrong).
Banshee Tech Requirement Reduction
- Our understanding is that the community was heavily against this change, so we’re pulling it unless you point out that this isn’t the case.
We are also working on a list of added changes such as Immortal Barrier nerf and Cyclone changes. We'll have more details on these this week as well. Source
Why did you change the post to remove the part about the colossus buff?
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I don't use Liberators at all so I can't comment, but it would be a shame to nerf such a cool unit.
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On May 07 2016 02:55 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 19:58 CyanApple wrote:On May 06 2016 19:11 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 06 2016 18:42 CyanApple wrote:
With the new Thor, wouldn't the following unit composition allow for really interesting fights?
Tank, Thor, Hellion, Medivac
Hellions with Thor at the front, so the Thor is protected from fast, light units while it can shoot at heavily armored air. Plus backup from Tank in the back to clear armored units on the ground.
Enough Medivacs to transport tanks and thors, so you can move out and to hold positions even better by using hellbats, which can then be healed.
As I am not that experienced, I don't know what the composition (in terms of numbers) would look like and whether it's feasible with Stargate and Factory only. But to me it looks like an interesting composition that I would like to see discussed (maybe even with and without siegevacs). With Thor single AA target you lack anti air big time with that comp. That's why TvT you had Hellion Tank Viking, or Tank Hellion Thor Viking, etc. Thor anti light, Viking anti everything. If you add Medivacs and maybe Liberators you now have 100 different types of units and a small army. I've always thought that an army that makes for good games, should have 2 core units, and 1 or 2 for support. So Hellion-Tank core, with Cyclone-mine support, or Thor-Viking, or any other. But when you have to many support units or to many core units it becomes a silly deathball army IMO and one that can not split to cover the map, since 15 units depend on each other to do a job. In LOTV, i think a Tank-Hellion army could be a good core, with Cyclones for anti armor air for support and a few Mines or a few Medivacs or Liberators as the case might be. Right now this is not possible IMO because the core is already 3 must have units in Tank, Medivac, Hellion, and none of them shoot up; so you need at least 2 more in either Vikings or Thors or Cyclones. To many units. Solution? Buff Tank dmg so it's not so dependent on medivac micro That doesn't change the immobility of the overall army,though. I think the medivac is necessary to have non-turtling mech with the units designed as they are now(immobile). For the medivac to be of better use in such a battle, it maybe should be able to repair mech? Also see my edit above: In midgame the thor should be replaced by libs/vikings. I'm interested whether the proposed unit comp would actually do well in lategame fights vZ and vP.(TvT already uses mech and thor change wouldn't change much i guess) The lack of mobility is only at the core of firepower and it's a feature, just like bio being weak to AOE. It's poor thinking IMO that all armies have to have some quallity all the time (DK is in a period where he is convinced that speed is the answer for all). Hellions, Cyclones, Banshees and even mines have good mobility. Having the "strong" unit, the Tank, be slow is what promotes a different thinking and playstyle. If the entire army is mobile and is dependant on medivacs, you only get a bio 2.0. And here is why IMO DK fails in his thinking: he wants Terran to play the same way, but using different units. So then, what is the point of using unit A or unit B if the FEEL of the game is the same? It makes no diferance if you run around and unload a few marauders from a med, or a tank, or a whatever. The FEEL of the game is the same. This gets boring real fast, for me. As far as "boring" games go, this is about design IMO and not playstyles. Mech was and is fantastic in BW yet crap in SC2. The Tank is the same in both, even stronger in BW actually. It's what happens around it that makes a game fun; it's the synergy of units and game flow. I already said that i have no expectations from SC2, but it pains me a little that some fans of SC have only seen defensive strategies in the form of Raven-Tank/SH-Viper/Infestor-BL. Yes those were terrible games, but not because mech or defensive strategies are bad, but because Dustin Browder and DK have failed misserably at implementig them. I understand why DK would say mech games were boring, he was part of the design and balance and he's looking to save his arse, but fans should know that it was HIS version of those things that were bad. Good strategy games have always had a variety of playstyles viable, and some of the most admired were the defensive ones, from BW to single player Total War and even SC2 single player. Granted, it's a more complex game flow to make defensive/mech fun, then just harass-harass-move-move, but maybe that's why BW was so popular for so long and it still is while SC2 feels like it's dying all the time. + Show Spoiler +I've always thought that if Blizz had the rights to CS, we would have never had CS Go but a Call of Duty clone. Blizz has really lost it's way in knowing how to exploit what they already have, and it's looking to hard at what others are doing and tryng to make shity copies. SC2 is becoming MOBA-ified IMO: unit abilities over composition, twitch reflex over positioning, etc.
Can't yet tell if it's shity designers or to much ego or Activision orders, but save for Heartstone (a game coming from a small team with little pressure) they have been bad with all their major titles.
They've changed from a leader attitude, to one of "hopefully we'll get a piece of the market". And in the process they've lost the faith of the fans AND failed to get new ones. IMO
I see your point - and agree with it. I was just adresing the immobility of the army because many players feel vulnerable when moving out on the map because of it, as it can be scouted and they will be harassed as a reaction. To have your mech army deployed at the battlefront by the medivac and to set up there is a design I would like, because (without the siegevac) you still would need to choose your positions properly, but wouldn't take so long to do it.
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On May 06 2016 12:04 ihatevideogames wrote:
So, they're looking to fix one of terran's two completely useless units while they throw one of the almost-useless units into the gutter. In the end, terran will still have 2 useless units. Not to mention putting terran on a timer in tvz, because being on a timer in tvp is so much fun already.
But hey, they're at least bringing the swarm host back!
Also, can someone explain to me, why has the BC been such a trash unit ever since WOL and they haven't even considered looking at it?
But I know, I know, I'm just a dumb balance whiner and should git gud, right?
actually you might want to get worse.
according to my silver and gold friends the Banshee is a good unit. clearly, this is anecdotal. I wonder if the Banshee is totally useless at every level of play.
unless of course you're talking about the Thor and Cyclone
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EPT
