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Forgive me for not contributing to the SH discussion here, but I feel like this needs to be said again.
On April 20 2016 06:57 xongnox wrote:
Every two weeks or so Blizz change their priority for "the next patch" [...]
One time we discussed tank(ivacs) and Mech, then early game protoss vs Z "weakness" with ovie drops, then the ravager nerf, Libs nerf+buff banshee speed thing, then immortals and protoss anit-mutas, without forgetting the proposed thor change.
Yes, I know, the META is evolving, things are getting figured out and blabla, but it´s still very irritating and doesn´t exactly inspire confidence.
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I don't think the concept of the swarm host is a good idea for sc2 at all. Free units don't have a drawback in this game. In Wc3 they could be easily dispelled and also gave a lot of experience to the opponent. That's why in SC2 free units need to be very weak or they become inherently broken. We already had this problem with infested terrans.
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On April 20 2016 06:44 tokinho wrote:For those that don't know. Catz made a sick article that should be featured on teamliquid. Its about the swarm host, its purpose and ways to achieve that purpose. Catz also streamed several swarm hosts games yesterday. He effectively demonstrated a swarm host viper style ZvZ and ZvP and talked about why its good for the game and why it promotes healthy play. I admit i am a bit biased because i do consider catz a friend. Here's the vod of the zvz game. Despite my thoughts about the cannon buff primarily effecting the protoss late game, the cannon buffs would be countered by this new swarm host style which would be effective. I think overall more healthy rather than just always try to mass one unit and win.
Sick article, thanks
I strongly disagree with "the idea behind SH is straight up bad and unfixable" from other posts. Such narrow line of thinking
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On April 20 2016 17:53 jackacea wrote:
Instead of trying to find a place and use for a unit nobody likes, how about removing SH alltogether and replacing them with Scourge? Scourge offers micro potential on both sides, just like banelings, plus its a good way to deal with clumped air or a harrassing liberator etc without overcommitting to spire tech or hive+vipers.
Clumped air? scourge didn't do splash damage in BW, but yeah would be awesome to have them back.
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oh no... 
I really hoped that SH is dead for good. I hate this unit so much, and hated it since the beginning of HotS.
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I like the idea of anti-air SH. Make it hive tech, a ground based, anti-air Brood Lord basically. It could help Z vs the impossible to deal with lategame tempest/storm protoss compositions.
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On April 20 2016 20:16 ihatevideogames wrote:
I like the idea of anti-air SH. Make it hive tech, a ground based, anti-air Brood Lord basically. It could help Z vs the impossible to deal with lategame tempest/storm protoss compositions.
Could add an upgrade at hive tech that allows the swarm host to spawn scourge instead of locusts and the player would be able to choose what to spawn from each SH. Would work similar to the BW scourge, but be free instead of cheap and have limited life time just like locusts (let's say 10-12 seconds).
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Buff the most undesirable unit in the game? I think the game would be better of without it. But since you are considering such ideas, I will throw in a couple that you may find entertaining: buff Immortal speed so it can outrun speedlings - the muta problem is almost settled and this would help with the zerg ground force. The sentry should have an ability to plant invisible nuclear devices. 1 nuclear device per stalker. They could be detonated remotely or on a timer. This will greatly improve the game and make it very entertaining.
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On April 20 2016 17:53 jackacea wrote:
Instead of trying to find a place and use for a unit nobody likes, how about removing SH alltogether and replacing them with Scourge? Scourge offers micro potential on both sides, just like banelings, plus its a good way to deal with clumped air or a harrassing liberator etc without overcommitting to spire tech or hive+vipers.
+1
However they are too stubborn to do this, they never accept their bad designs and change it. Its been years that widow mines are still in the game for instance.
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On April 20 2016 17:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 17:35 FFW_Rude wrote:
Or maybe a hero unit that buff unit in a way. Like the mothership does ?
Then you make a hero terran unit with the warhound :p Obviously the lacking anti air which is still a thing calls for a new hero unit called Patriot  Leave warhound alone. God I hope they won't add more hero units.
I know deep inside you want a super hero unit. Like the nydus worm. Unkillable. Let's say a super terran mule that can't die. Or a giant robot made of buildings !
On April 20 2016 18:05 OtherWorld wrote:Yesssss Make the Hosts great again, the Swarm doesn't win anymore with such weak Hosts Show nested quote +On April 20 2016 17:35 FFW_Rude wrote:
Or maybe a hero unit that buff unit in a way. Like the mothership does ?
Then you make a hero terran unit with the warhound :p "Host of the Hosts" Looks like a big moving mushroom, can either give the SH's ability to any unit for a given amount of time (can you imagine UltraHosts, which would spawn UltraLocusts?), or give a SH a buff which doubles the damage output of its locusts, doubles the life of its locusts, and doubles the number of locusts spawned per wave.
I like the idea but shooting infested void ray would be much more fun !
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Im hyped about the possibility of Swarmhost change, was clearly my favorite H.O.T.S unit.
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i have somewhat thought the idea over, but before adding much detail about viability i wonder if the idea is a bad design in general.
i was thinking swarm hosts would be interesting as a ground warp prism for zerg. instead of spawning new "swarm host"-specific units, it could spawn actual zerg units like a portable hatchery, but limited in ways similar to the warp prism (no robo/stargate units, meaning no hive/spire units, probably no queens either). it could be used very differently than the nydus.
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if they are buffing zerg they need to at least give a counterpart (nerfing ultra looks like a priority to me)
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On April 20 2016 06:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I'm really not convinced swarm hosts have anything to bring to the game. I would say the whole concept is flawed and I really don't see a way to salvage them. I have to say recent community updates are a bit unsettling : a lot of propositions with no real direction or concrete action, I find it somewhat worrisome.
I'm really worried about the putting lipstick on a pig direction as well. There are quite a few suggestions lately on how turd can be polished and that seems to be the part of the community that Blizzard listens to. They are just unable to let go of their shitty designs.
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Free units are a problem that is near unfixable.
Either make swarm hosts have energy like the infestor
change them to cost something
change them to have charges like Reaver
its pretty simple.
Free units dont equal swarm anyway, a warlock summons units - a swarm produces cheap small units.
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at this point I think the SC2 team gets almost 90% hatred on their updates, lol
(not that I'm not guilty myself of posting that, still i imagine it's rather funny for them to filter through community feedback)
Thank you for the article CatZ, looks like it had impact
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I wished SH would work as an Anti-Air with those flying locusts, and parasitic removed.
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On April 21 2016 01:25 weikor wrote:
Free units are a problem that is near unfixable.
Either make swarm hosts have energy like the infestor
change them to cost something
change them to have charges like Reaver
its pretty simple.
Free units dont equal swarm anyway, a warlock summons units - a swarm produces cheap small units.
It's "just" the same.
Having a cooldown and having energy are exactly the same, you need to wait anyway to have enough energy or the end of the cooldown.
Actually, energy is stronger as you can stack energy and use multiple time (it's the same than having charges).
The only thing is with energy HT counter them with feedback, or EMP.
Won't make the unit better to have energy instead of cooldown, just make Protoss or Terran better (ZErg don't have any anti-caster) vs them, but the unit is not used anyway, so it a nonsense...
Whining about free units is aslo not really clever, as all SC2 units have unlimited ammo.
Tank can shoot infinitly, and never have to reload, not really realistic but it's SC2 game design.
While you can't dodge marine bullets, or sieged tank shots, you can kill locust before you take any dmg, or fly and escape from locusts.
It's just a unit with a zerg design, as swarmy, but free units are inferior to infinite bullets of all the other sc2 units.
The complain was more the permanent wave with a long lifetime of locust, that make like SH was kind of a tank with 20-30+ range which can relocate really fast.
With lurker, Zerg know have a ground sieged units, so making SH back to HOTS is not necessary for balance.
But SH is now a weird unit, just a nexus killer or anti-building.
But it need a lot of tech, and a lot of supply money for that while other units can make kind of the same but can be used on a fight while SH are useless at fighting army units, so nobody use it.
Just make SH fit another role than Zerg need and it will be used.
IMO, if they turn SH into AA, like they release locusts than can only shoot air, you will see plenty of SH made (if the cost and the supply isn't too high) vs T/P and even vs Z, as Zerg lack anti-air compare to the other race.
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Turning Swarmhost into a GtA specialist is pretty attractive. I just also like the idea of Zerg getting an air Reaver instead of PB.
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I'd like a game whereby all units that you can make have their usage in at least one match up.
By the way, those who are saying 'we need to look at other areas that are problematic': one possible approach would be: 'take a look at units that are currently under/not used to see if they can maybe fix that spot'.
For example: if mass air is a problem, buffing swarm hosts against mass air, but not against small air (however you may do that) would be a solution. I am not saying that's the way to go, but it's a way.
I would love to be able to make swarm hosts in an non-overpowered, but usable way.
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EPT
