In the thought of keeping everyone updated, we're wanted to let you know we've been looking at Swarm Host buffs internally. We've been busy testing various things this week, and we realized we didn't give you guys a heads up yet.
The main gist of it is to have a version of the Swarm Host that is straight up much stronger than right now, but make sure that mass Swarm Hosts aren't a thing still. We can do a straight up power buff such as a cost reduction in combination with a nerf such as supply cost nerf to prevent mass Swarm Hosts to be too effective in the maxed out army scenarios.
Let's work together on testing the changes quickly, because we'd like to aim for testing/locking down the specific changes for the actual patch to go live ~2 weeks after that.
The only real way to make the SH concept viable is to reduce the downtime between locust waves. The zerg army is already supply inefficient enough that we can't afford to have dead supply lying around (as opposed to protoss, who can have inactive disruptors because the rest of the army doesn't such so badly in the meantime). But I am afraid that would inevitably lead to the good old drawn out infinite locust stream games where nothing is really killed. I liked those, but I know that I was in a small minority.
Nice, stronger Swarmhosts. Now zerg can turtle harder and mech will be even worse to play vs zerg. Does Blizzard really want to see EVERY FCKING match Bio liberator? oh wait, they said once: "we see too much bio parades" so we buffed the ultralisk, and the counter to the biocounter is ANOTHER bio unit (ghost).
Epic army composition, lurker, swarmhost, broodlord (nice siege units) with ultralisk, infestor and corruptor. Try to beat that! oh wait and the endless static defence + queens
Is blizzard really forcing us to leave sc2 and start playing Overwatch?...
I dont know how blizzard could fix the swarm host just by playing with numbers. I think some kind of redesign is necessary if this unit is really supposed to be fixed. Maybe if they unburrow all their locusts die instantly? This way they would be more or less static while attacking? Or maybe make individual locusts cost money, or perhaps energy?
As it is its just a unit with ridiculous attack range and DPS potential.
On April 20 2016 06:02 Charoisaur wrote: Why is it a problem that swarmhost aren't used but it's okay that cyclones/ravens/bcs/hellbats/thors are almost never used?
Hellbats are never used? Someone doesn't watch enough Kelazhur games
On April 20 2016 06:02 Charoisaur wrote: Why is it a problem that swarmhost aren't used but it's okay that cyclones/ravens/bcs/hellbats/thors are almost never used?
Hellbats are never used? Someone doesn't watch enough Kelazhur games
Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
I'm really not convinced swarm hosts have anything to bring to the game. I would say the whole concept is flawed and I really don't see a way to salvage them. I have to say recent community updates are a bit unsettling : a lot of propositions with no real direction or concrete action, I find it somewhat worrisome.
On April 20 2016 06:02 Charoisaur wrote: Why is it a problem that swarmhost aren't used but it's okay that cyclones/ravens/bcs/hellbats/thors are almost never used?
Hellbats are never used? Someone doesn't watch enough Kelazhur games
When does he build hellbats?
HotS style timings mostly. Maybe he doesn't anymore though but a few months ago Im pretty sure I saw some
A numbers game of the following: -Lower the timer of Spawn locust -Increase the HP of Locusts a little -Increase the spawning time of Locusts a little -Make Locusts lose HP/per second.
If you want your Siege units ( Locusts) to be powerful at soaking and dealing damage, then you need to have your siege machinery (Swarm Host) closer to the enemy, making it more risky to deploy Locusts on a "permanent" sieging position, yet more powerful if it hits, while also helping T/P be actually able to chuck away something besides free units.
I agree with supply and/or cost changes for the SH, but honestly, the flying locusts are way too fucking slow. It makes no sense that anything that flies would be so slow, they are faster on the ground than in the air.... Please make them a lot faster and they could become a fun harassment tool.
For those that don't know. Catz made a sick article that should be featured on teamliquid. Its about the swarm host, its purpose and ways to achieve that purpose. Catz also streamed several swarm hosts games yesterday. He effectively demonstrated a swarm host viper style ZvZ and ZvP and talked about why its good for the game and why it promotes healthy play. I admit i am a bit biased because i do consider catz a friend. Here's the vod of the zvz game.
Despite my thoughts about the cannon buff primarily effecting the protoss late game, the cannon buffs would be countered by this new swarm host style which would be effective. I think overall more healthy rather than just always try to mass one unit and win.
Every two weeks or so Blizz change their priority for "the next patch", for no reason whatsoever. One time we discussed tank(ivacs) and Mech, then early game protoss vs Z "weakness" with ovie drops, then the ravager nerf, Libs nerf+buff banshee speed thing, then immortals and protoss anit-mutas, without forgetting the proposed thor change.
Seems like to me we are in a beta state, but with all the competitions running atm, they can't patch heavily every 2 weaks, so they go round and round in circles with nothing interesting popping out.
And now they even want more SH. God. Must. Hate. Starcraft.
Meanwhile, they seems so worried about ZvP they don't even see how, at the top Korean level, Protoss wrecks terrans hard. ( and, i call it now, it will only go worse and worse until a patch )
On April 20 2016 06:57 xongnox wrote: Every two weeks or so Blizz change their priority for "the next patch", for no reason whatsoever. One time we discussed tank(ivacs) and Mech, then early game protoss vs Z "weakness" with ovie drops, then the ravager nerf, Libs nerf+buff banshee speed thing, then immortals and protoss anit-mutas, without forgetting the proposed thor change.
Seems like to me we are in a beta state, but with all the competitions running atm, they can't patch heavily every 2 weaks, so they go round and round in circles with nothing interesting popping out.
And now they even want more SH. God. Must. Hate. Starcraft.
Meanwhile, they seems so worried about ZvP they don't even see how, at the top Korean level, Protoss wrecks terrans hard. ( and, i call it now, it will only go worse and worse until a patch )
I agree the direction seems rather unclear ; and their ways of achieving their strange goals are even stranger.
I've wondered what would happen if we reverted SH to EXACTLY the HOTS version (need to burrow to send locusts, locusts auto-spawn, locusts don't fly, etc) BUT have the SH lose health every time they spawn locusts. So each locust spawn effectively slowly kills the SH. Maybe take away their zergy regen powers too...
am i the only person who notices how often the state they want to change zerg or terran without changing protoss at all, even when they specifically state toss is having troubles? this kind of stuff continues to baffle me @_@
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
Oh god i hope they dont bring them back in a similar iteration.
The whole process of free Units makes it automatically be either way too strong or too weak..there is no inbetween when you are fighting free units. Its the worst feeling in starcraft to take fights against free spawned units and absolutely *not-fun*
I really like the ingame model tho, so if they redesign the unit and find a different approach or purpose for it, i'm all ears :D
Why am I not surprised that they are addressing the Swarm Host but they haven't said ANYTHING for a very long time about Mech and BCs? I remembered something funny actually. It was around the early days of WOL. BCs used to do 10 damage vs ground, but they were still considered pretty trash in competitive. Literally noone ever made them. Blizz decided to nerf it to 8, for some weird reason.
Rework Swarm host and make it a ground transport unit that can move around. Make it to were when it dies, the units inside it deload from it. Units inside cannot attack, can be deploy on the go. The SH itself has no attack. Breaks siege lines (though, that really isn't a prob., with the ravager being in the game now) and gives us the swarm, without it being free units only.
What does this fix? -Massablity -Turtlezerg -Protental ways to stop late game slug feasts.
What can go wrong? -To easy to break siege lines -Could be broken
On April 20 2016 07:00 -Kyo- wrote: am i the only person who notices how often the state they want to change zerg or terran without changing protoss at all, even when they specifically state toss is having troubles? this kind of stuff continues to baffle me @_@
It seems that Protoss is slightly (and maybe even not so slightly) favored in both non mirror match-ups at the highest level atm, so I can understand their stance.
I think they could try to give SHs an entirely different role, maybe have it help vs airtoss in some weird way. But I'm pretty sure the intended design they have in mind since the HotS change (harass, which is of course the coolest thing on earth)+ Show Spoiler +
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
On April 20 2016 07:00 -Kyo- wrote: am i the only person who notices how often the state they want to change zerg or terran without changing protoss at all, even when they specifically state toss is having troubles? this kind of stuff continues to baffle me @_@
More like Protoss was having troubles. We all know Zest is on fire right now but at the highest levels of play Zerg actually is a bit underpowered vs. Protoss and Terran is balanced but is walking a tight rope in the match up.
PKf you always have good/sensible things to say, agree with both of your posts, I don't even think the Swarm Host can fill any role in the Zerg army.
In HOTS it was there to fight against turtle mech and Protoss deathballs, both of which are essentially extinct (shame for mech but it's cancer to play against and to watch unless your name is Avilo) in LOTV.
Maybe give them a way to combat Skytoss? That's pretty much the only thing that feels "unbeatable" at the moment now that they balanced PB a little bit.
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there.
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite
On April 20 2016 05:42 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Nice, stronger Swarmhosts. Now zerg can turtle harder and mech will be even worse to play vs zerg. Does Blizzard really want to see EVERY FCKING match Bio liberator? oh wait, they said once: "we see too much bio parades" so we buffed the ultralisk, and the counter to the biocounter is ANOTHER bio unit (ghost).
Epic army composition, lurker, swarmhost, broodlord (nice siege units) with ultralisk, infestor and corruptor. Try to beat that! oh wait and the endless static defence + queens
Is blizzard really forcing us to leave sc2 and start playing Overwatch?...
How about start with being able to switch between flying locust and ground locust. Not like there are many changes you could do without altering the swarmhost "kit" that would make it more viable but that's certainly a small start
There are plenty of things that can be explored to change swarm host :
- test dmg vs light and dmg vs armored difference - lower the hp of the locusts so that they hit harder but die very quickly - make them attack building only, for a late game harass plan - tune the locusts movement speed -and so on and so on
The issue here I think is the question is bad : "What should we do to make sh useful again, but not in mass" is asking to think about solutions instead of thinking about the problem.
I'd much prefer think about this question instead : " What could the SH be used for, that no other zerg units is already doing?"
Like : "what is the need the SH should be answering to?"
Let's identify the need and then we'll be able to find a solution.
On April 20 2016 05:40 The_Red_Viper wrote: Swarm hosts are a flawed concept to begin with, pls don't try to bring them back -.- If you wanna use the game model then redesign it from scratch
Just this. It's the main reason I've not played this unit at all in Hots (very seldomly at least)
The current SH isn't totally useless but not far from it. It's a long read but I'll explain why I don't see a future for this unit.
Burst/combat damage vs damage over time is a very difficult design struggle. It was a bit of an identity problem for starcraft. In HOTS, we ended up with INnoVation vs ByuL type of games, SH games etc. There was a lot of love/hate, mostly hate. Now, in search of exciting games, we have swift 1-4base army movement pendulum games that sometimes end too abruptly and close to no mech/split map games at all. Most late-game map layouts hardly matter, because 4+ base almost never happens. (Think of the top and bottom middle bases on Invader LE, or to some extent the gold bases. Not really used a whole lot.)
It's like two different worlds collided and 1-4base (20-170supply) beat 5-8base (~200/200). People cried over SH/mech games. Slow paced - bases mined out ... bad. Now we don't have any bases beyond 4-5 (usually) being mined pretty much except for the odd super-lucky game, or a game where a few stylistically stubborn players do it. Usually the game runs on the 1-4base aggro pendulum. And that's part of the reason why the design of end-game units is not developing so quickly.
Immortals, ravagers, liberators receive all the attention because they're effective and relevant. BC's are NOT. Long games are anomalies for the most part.
If you want Battlecruisers, Nukes, Carriers etc. to be viable, one has to be comfortable with it being OK for defensive play to happen, have it be OK for defensive play to be strong. Right now, players can't tech too hard because the default aggro builds just win. If people could defend more easily, you would reach 200/200 and 5-8base. Some designs are currently tediously slow or just straight up boring at this stage, though. Such as blobs of Sky Zerg trying to abduct a Sky Protoss slowly chipping away at spores with nothing else going on. If certain spells/ranged units work a certain way, these dynamics WILL be stale real fast.
^ above: a LOTV "Mech vs Mech" game with mostly Burst Damage units. Almost no Damage over Time (DoT) is involved for either player. Few snipes, no swarm host, few infested terran/fungal, very limited viper usage (outside of burst fights), no yamato. In this game, it was not necessary for me to invest into SH, because neither Battlecruisers or Ghost Snipe posed a big DoT threat. The game was won by army advantage, map control advantage, and resource advantage.
Think of a 2base nydus worm allin. It's like an army crushing death beam mega laser hitting straight to the core. And then a 8 base Zerg that uses a nydus worm for ultralisk harass. A distraction tool, designed to pull you apart at the edges. Nydus worm has this built-in versatility, it fits in both worlds.
I don't think the same can be said for Swarm Host, and I'm not sure how you could balance it to fit both worlds. Does it have to fit in both? No, but with the current state of ZvP (Tempest) i wouldn't exactly expect Swarm Host to be built no matter what because Zerg doesn't simply stay defensive and other units do the aggro tasks better, unless the Swarm Host has its stats buffed.
If you allow resources to be invested in weak/harassment-DoT units, turtling usually ends up going together with it. Either you attack or you don't. Think of mass muta/lurker: you don't deal a ton of damage with your mutas crippling the Protoss to death to then unburrow your lurkers to Protoss' base. It doesn't make sense. Same will happen to Swarm Host, if it has little combat value but tremendous DoT. Why would you NOT be patient?
Regardless of stats, the neo-Swarm Host is still increasingly useful the longer the game goes. It's a very unique trait not shared by many other units. Yes, you can bring it to a fight but caution and slow is still the name of the game. If you're not 100% sure you can fight, you sure as hell don't do it, because you don't take such a risk with fragile units when you have a guaranteed benefit over time that the opposing race/player might not have an answer to. And if bringing Swarm Host to a fight is what it's about, then ... aren't they just like free Zerglings then? A zombie host that allows you to invest over time at the "risk" of getting caught more easily, I suppose. This "risk" being very varied. What kind of Protoss would chase after a Hydra/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost army outside of Photon Overcharge/Sentry safe haven? LOL. Oh wait, I guess you could. But what does Zerg end up doing then? Turtle harder, and launch more SH missiles to get back into it.
Another part about the neo-SH: There are few counter-plays to it. It's a frustrating unit to play against and not "fun", because the locust land, maybe you storm them or pop an overcharge, retreat your units or whatever. But the locust will time out and that's it. There is no persistent threat in your base that you can kill off or achieve a trade against, no real investment UNTIL.....
...You: 1) Find the Swarm Host and hunt them down (phoenix, oracle, observer, voidray, dt etc. vs host/nydus/overlords). 2) Take your entire army, capitalize on the advantage while SH are on cooldown, and YOLO 1a.
And honorable mention to: ! 3) Sitting there taking damage, teching up to the ultimate deathball and winning with a strong base/army core that Zerg's army can't damage anymore. MECH!
Maybe the counter-play would be to not let the Swarm Host get too close to your main or 4th base's surrounding terrain to begin with?
Compared to a relatively complex challenge like a lurker drop on a high ground followed up by a nydus worm, it isn't exactly amazing design when a bunch of locust fly into your base. You don't know where the SH are unless you have perfect information. You can calculate the supply invested into SH, but if a player can turtle or back off appropriately, the best you can do is to push the swarm hosts back to inevitable safety while you go for an appropriate response (Mech? Deathball? Tempest?) of your own. And you just kind of sit there.
It's really frustrating to balance. Give the races too much DoT value and people will play passive, and there will be no counter except for full-grown 50:50 SPLIT MECH games (ByuL vs INno). Remove all defensive play/DoT and games will end on 4 bases maximum with no end-games, no high-tech units and most likely no occasional mined-out dramas.
You can't buff DoT units without the risk of producing Mech games, and currently the game is 99% Bio. So many changes have pushed Bio. If you're not a fan of Mech as a playstyle, then yes. Swarm Host are scary by design. Tempest are scary by design, especially the maxed-out kind with cannons underneath and a Mothership. The new ghost, given appropriate space and breathing room, and Yamato Cannon, are scary by design. But it's important to state here that split map mech games don't have to be boring, if proper late-game tools exist.
If the opposing side can't have success with superior income and/or burst damage, you get mech vs mech. And it can be cool or it can be awful, depending on the unit design at T3 and how DoT and Burst are weighted against one another. Tools like Teleport (nydus, arbiter, "doomdrop", "prism", recall, BC tactical jump) help spice up RTS end-game. AoE Stuns and Damage such as Stasis/Vortex/Parasitic Bomb/Nuke as well, punishing extreme clumping and challenging positions. Blinding Cloud as well, if it covers enough ground and lasts long enough. (Dark Swarm, Plague)
If Sustained DoT time-bombs such as Tempest and Swarm Host are cool as well? Not so sure. But right now, we don't see mech games because the design doesn't favor it as much compared to mid-game burst damage anyway, so... "nobody cares".
the CatZ ZvZ vod linked earlier showed a great Swarm Host ZvZ, I recommend checking it out. https://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/v/61519049?t=78m37s ^ These types of games can be pretty cool in my opinion. As long as the Swarm Host based composition isn't totally unbeatable (reminiscent of pre-frenzied broodlord Swarmhost/Viper/Spore mirror wars), these types of games should be very fun. In ZvZ it's still possible (to some extent) walk over this composition with SH cooldown baiting followed by excellent Blinding Cloud, Ultralisk, Transfuse and Baneling usage.
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite
Do people actually read what others write or do they just see his name and start jumping on the hate train -_- ?
I´ve never said "listen to him" I know he whines a lot. Still there is some truth behind it. Saying the game is in a good state when it´s not is just ignorant.
You can't buff DoT units without the risk of producing Mech games, and currently the game is 99% Bio. So many changes have pushed Bio. If you're not a fan of Mech as a playstyle, then yes. Swarm Host are scary by design. Tempest are scary by design, especially the maxed-out kind with cannons underneath and a Mothership. The new ghost, given appropriate space and breathing room, and Yamato Cannon, are scary by design. But it's important to state here that split map mech games don't have to be boring, if proper late-game tools exist.
If the opposing side can't have success with superior income and/or burst damage, you get mech vs mech. And it can be cool or it can be awful, depending on the unit design at T3 and how DoT and Burst are weighted against one another. Tools like Teleport (nydus, arbiter, "doomdrop", "prism", recall, BC tactical jump) help spice up RTS end-game. AoE Stuns and Damage such as Stasis/Vortex/Parasitic Bomb/Nuke as well, punishing extreme clumping and challenging positions. Blinding Cloud as well, if it covers enough ground and lasts long enough. (Dark Swarm, Plague)
If Sustained DoT time-bombs such as Tempest and Swarm Host are cool as well? Not so sure. But right now, we don't see mech games because the design doesn't favor it as much compared to mid-game burst damage anyway, so... "nobody cares".
Brilliant xD As i said before. Swarm host will become viable if mech exist cause they want swarm host become a harrasser but why you even bother to produce swarm host when you have ling run by and mut mut ?
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite
So we should make 2 supply tempests,10 armor ultras, stronger vipers and ravagers, make nydus worm permanently invincible,buff pylons and adept/warpprism and buff air armies from all races to the point that ground units are worthless in the game? I don't think I like your vision of the game..
The swarmhost needs a redesign not some simple tweaking of its stats.
My idea:
Make the swarm host into the reaver 2.0. It can build "infested terrans" for minerals and hold X charges. The infested terrans act like scarabs in bw and explode on contact.
Counteract this with making them quite slow, such that they require overlords to quickly transport them across the map (or nydus).
This will allow them to be useful for defense, aggression and breaking siege positions.
I'm definitely for mineral cost, because it seems like we've tried the "free unit" campaign with disastrous results. Infested Terrans were a similar failed experiment. If it costs minerals, you could make them feel badass and strong. And Zerg, in general, aren't too mineral strapped.
Make each locust wave cost anywhere between 5-20 minerals (depending on the downtime and strength) and there will be less incentive to spam. Even 5 minerals per wave would be a deterrent.
On April 20 2016 06:08 avilo wrote: Blizzard, that's fine and great. But then do the same thing and fix supply cost on tempest right now is absurd at 4 supply, and fix more important issues like mech viability, cyclones, para bomb, 8 armor ultras....etc the list goes on.
I want swarm hosts to be viable too, and think they should be. But they are not top priority especially considering how strong Zerg already is atm.
MAKE MECH VIABLE please, and fix tempests supply cost.
Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch,
The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite
So we should make 2 supply tempests,10 armor ultras, stronger vipers and ravagers, make nydus worm permanently invincible,buff pylons and adept/warpprism and buff air armies from all races to the point that ground units are worthless in the game?
I support anything to get rid of avilo from the game faster.
I for one, welcome this change. I get that Terran wants cyclones/BCs looked at, and Protoss wants Tempests looked at, but SH is so useless it's not even funny. I can only use it to attack once a minute!!
Please reduce spawn time/increase locust move speed. I don't care if locust dps gets nerfed. It's so lame that SH can only attack once a minute when games end between 13-16 minutes. Lair finishes around 5-6 minutes and then I have to wait for the Infestation Pit and then the spawn time for my SH. So really when I have my SH around 8 minutes, they'll only get to use their attacks maybe 8-12 times before the game ends. That is NOT fun.
On April 20 2016 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote: Make each locust wave cost anywhere between 5-20 minerals (depending on the downtime and strength) and there will be less incentive to spam. Even 5 minerals per wave would be a deterrent.
Five minerals per wave would be a little too little, no?
The only intent of this is to make the game cooler to watch, as always. There will be more terrible damage and blood and carnage, all while the player simply doesn´t have to pay any resources for trading his units. Constant action David Kim Let´s gooooo! Please nooooo!
I don't think this will work, SH needs to be usable all the time. That is the problem of disruptor too. Once it shoots it is a dead supply for a long period of time, same for SH. I don't think that in the current state of the game anyone can afford 20 dead supply.
I find it kinda ironic, that they want to bring the SH back to life when they nerf it to the ground so it's no longer used. Same applies for Colossus. So when we hear "I have returned" from Colossus?
A new concept for the swarmhost they could try is to make the locusts basically free meatshields. Make them deal little damage but reduce a lot the cooldown between waves and give them decent HP, to tank for the glass cannon units behind (hydras).
I'm pretty sure this idea would not make them viable in TvZ, where you need burst damage instead of survability to deal with MMM. Might make them viable in PvZ tho.
On April 20 2016 16:43 Salteador Neo wrote: A new concept for the swarmhost they could try is to make the locusts basically free meatshields. Make them deal little damage but reduce a lot the cooldown between waves and give them decent HP, to tank for the glass cannon units behind (hydras).
I'd be happy to have the old swarmhost back if the unit couldn't spawn a wave locusts on its own, and instead has to be injected by a queen. In this way an injected hatchery makes (free) larva and an injected swarnhost makes (free) locusts. Let the swarmhost stack injects so you can get multiple waves if you've put in multiple injects.
Zerg is based on larva management and economy with poor cost/supply units. Free units destroy the concept and is one of the reasons BLI in WoL and SH in HotS were issues. I'm glad they see the unit as poor/underused but it worries me that they don't see the same problem I do. + Show Spoiler +
And if I'm the one that's seeing the design incorrectly that's just as worrying because it also means the design didn't get through to me...
What if Locusts could attack air units as well (or maybe only air units), making Swarm Hosts a ground-to-air unit? I think it could work reasonably, and would also work against the mass air play that has been a problem since forever. At the same time, since Zerg already has very strong anti-air in Parasitic Bomb, PB could get an, in my opinion long overdue, nerf so it does not stack and deals considerably less damage. If SH is AA only (or deals more damage as AA than as AG), it could stop players from going mass air mindlessly (which I don't really have a problem with, by the way, but the majority of the community does) while not being an air unit itself, so there is no more "my opponent goes mass air, I have to go mass air, too."
Zerg have lots of viable unit combos. Terran has only one.
Instead of focusing on making mech viable so that Terran is not forced to go bio every single game, in every single matchup, they bother with Swarm Hosts. Why?
Buffing underused units is a good idea, but maybe focus on the largest problems first?
Instead of trying to find a place and use for a unit nobody likes, how about removing SH alltogether and replacing them with Scourge? Scourge offers micro potential on both sides, just like banelings, plus its a good way to deal with clumped air or a harrassing liberator etc without overcommitting to spire tech or hive+vipers.
Yesssss Make the Hosts great again, the Swarm doesn't win anymore with such weak Hosts
On April 20 2016 17:35 FFW_Rude wrote: Or maybe a hero unit that buff unit in a way. Like the mothership does ?
Then you make a hero terran unit with the warhound :p
"Host of the Hosts" Looks like a big moving mushroom, can either give the SH's ability to any unit for a given amount of time (can you imagine UltraHosts, which would spawn UltraLocusts?), or give a SH a buff which doubles the damage output of its locusts, doubles the life of its locusts, and doubles the number of locusts spawned per wave.
What is going on? Are the community managers not doing their job?
With each new community update, I get the feeling Blizzard deliberately picks a topic literally no one asked about, while topics the players want to see addressed or at least acknowledged are completely ignored. First the random banshee buff, then a short intermezzo with immortal barrier, and now their attention switched to swarmhosts.
This is just great, we will now have six months of swarmhost tweaking without any talk about mass air vs mass air bs, invincible nydus, flying tanks, useless cyclones, ...
I just hate everything about this unit and wish they would remove it.. If they absolutely need to make it viable the 2 first changes needs to be the removal of flying locusts and each locust wave needs to cost a certain amount, then you can start to buff the stats.
If they made it so that broodlords could be killed with ground units it could be fine to redesign the swarm hosts in to a viable anti air unit..
Forgive me for not contributing to the SH discussion here, but I feel like this needs to be said again.
On April 20 2016 06:57 xongnox wrote: Every two weeks or so Blizz change their priority for "the next patch" [...] One time we discussed tank(ivacs) and Mech, then early game protoss vs Z "weakness" with ovie drops, then the ravager nerf, Libs nerf+buff banshee speed thing, then immortals and protoss anit-mutas, without forgetting the proposed thor change.
Yes, I know, the META is evolving, things are getting figured out and blabla, but it´s still very irritating and doesn´t exactly inspire confidence.
I don't think the concept of the swarm host is a good idea for sc2 at all. Free units don't have a drawback in this game. In Wc3 they could be easily dispelled and also gave a lot of experience to the opponent. That's why in SC2 free units need to be very weak or they become inherently broken. We already had this problem with infested terrans.
On April 20 2016 06:44 tokinho wrote: For those that don't know. Catz made a sick article that should be featured on teamliquid. Its about the swarm host, its purpose and ways to achieve that purpose. Catz also streamed several swarm hosts games yesterday. He effectively demonstrated a swarm host viper style ZvZ and ZvP and talked about why its good for the game and why it promotes healthy play. I admit i am a bit biased because i do consider catz a friend. Here's the vod of the zvz game.
Despite my thoughts about the cannon buff primarily effecting the protoss late game, the cannon buffs would be countered by this new swarm host style which would be effective. I think overall more healthy rather than just always try to mass one unit and win.
Sick article, thanks
I strongly disagree with "the idea behind SH is straight up bad and unfixable" from other posts. Such narrow line of thinking
On April 20 2016 17:53 jackacea wrote: Instead of trying to find a place and use for a unit nobody likes, how about removing SH alltogether and replacing them with Scourge? Scourge offers micro potential on both sides, just like banelings, plus its a good way to deal with clumped air or a harrassing liberator etc without overcommitting to spire tech or hive+vipers.
Clumped air? scourge didn't do splash damage in BW, but yeah would be awesome to have them back.
I like the idea of anti-air SH. Make it hive tech, a ground based, anti-air Brood Lord basically. It could help Z vs the impossible to deal with lategame tempest/storm protoss compositions.
On April 20 2016 20:16 ihatevideogames wrote: I like the idea of anti-air SH. Make it hive tech, a ground based, anti-air Brood Lord basically. It could help Z vs the impossible to deal with lategame tempest/storm protoss compositions.
Could add an upgrade at hive tech that allows the swarm host to spawn scourge instead of locusts and the player would be able to choose what to spawn from each SH. Would work similar to the BW scourge, but be free instead of cheap and have limited life time just like locusts (let's say 10-12 seconds).
Buff the most undesirable unit in the game? I think the game would be better of without it. But since you are considering such ideas, I will throw in a couple that you may find entertaining: buff Immortal speed so it can outrun speedlings - the muta problem is almost settled and this would help with the zerg ground force. The sentry should have an ability to plant invisible nuclear devices. 1 nuclear device per stalker. They could be detonated remotely or on a timer. This will greatly improve the game and make it very entertaining.
On April 20 2016 17:53 jackacea wrote: Instead of trying to find a place and use for a unit nobody likes, how about removing SH alltogether and replacing them with Scourge? Scourge offers micro potential on both sides, just like banelings, plus its a good way to deal with clumped air or a harrassing liberator etc without overcommitting to spire tech or hive+vipers.
+1 However they are too stubborn to do this, they never accept their bad designs and change it. Its been years that widow mines are still in the game for instance.
On April 20 2016 17:35 FFW_Rude wrote: Or maybe a hero unit that buff unit in a way. Like the mothership does ?
Then you make a hero terran unit with the warhound :p
Obviously the lacking anti air which is still a thing calls for a new hero unit called Patriot Leave warhound alone.
God I hope they won't add more hero units.
I know deep inside you want a super hero unit. Like the nydus worm. Unkillable. Let's say a super terran mule that can't die. Or a giant robot made of buildings !
On April 20 2016 18:05 OtherWorld wrote: Yesssss Make the Hosts great again, the Swarm doesn't win anymore with such weak Hosts
On April 20 2016 17:35 FFW_Rude wrote: Or maybe a hero unit that buff unit in a way. Like the mothership does ?
Then you make a hero terran unit with the warhound :p
"Host of the Hosts" Looks like a big moving mushroom, can either give the SH's ability to any unit for a given amount of time (can you imagine UltraHosts, which would spawn UltraLocusts?), or give a SH a buff which doubles the damage output of its locusts, doubles the life of its locusts, and doubles the number of locusts spawned per wave.
I like the idea but shooting infested void ray would be much more fun !
i have somewhat thought the idea over, but before adding much detail about viability i wonder if the idea is a bad design in general.
i was thinking swarm hosts would be interesting as a ground warp prism for zerg. instead of spawning new "swarm host"-specific units, it could spawn actual zerg units like a portable hatchery, but limited in ways similar to the warp prism (no robo/stargate units, meaning no hive/spire units, probably no queens either). it could be used very differently than the nydus.
On April 20 2016 06:09 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'm really not convinced swarm hosts have anything to bring to the game. I would say the whole concept is flawed and I really don't see a way to salvage them. I have to say recent community updates are a bit unsettling : a lot of propositions with no real direction or concrete action, I find it somewhat worrisome.
I'm really worried about the putting lipstick on a pig direction as well. There are quite a few suggestions lately on how turd can be polished and that seems to be the part of the community that Blizzard listens to. They are just unable to let go of their shitty designs.
at this point I think the SC2 team gets almost 90% hatred on their updates, lol (not that I'm not guilty myself of posting that, still i imagine it's rather funny for them to filter through community feedback)
Thank you for the article CatZ, looks like it had impact
On April 21 2016 01:25 weikor wrote: Free units are a problem that is near unfixable.
Either make swarm hosts have energy like the infestor change them to cost something change them to have charges like Reaver
its pretty simple.
Free units dont equal swarm anyway, a warlock summons units - a swarm produces cheap small units.
It's "just" the same.
Having a cooldown and having energy are exactly the same, you need to wait anyway to have enough energy or the end of the cooldown.
Actually, energy is stronger as you can stack energy and use multiple time (it's the same than having charges).
The only thing is with energy HT counter them with feedback, or EMP.
Won't make the unit better to have energy instead of cooldown, just make Protoss or Terran better (ZErg don't have any anti-caster) vs them, but the unit is not used anyway, so it a nonsense...
Whining about free units is aslo not really clever, as all SC2 units have unlimited ammo. Tank can shoot infinitly, and never have to reload, not really realistic but it's SC2 game design.
While you can't dodge marine bullets, or sieged tank shots, you can kill locust before you take any dmg, or fly and escape from locusts. It's just a unit with a zerg design, as swarmy, but free units are inferior to infinite bullets of all the other sc2 units.
The complain was more the permanent wave with a long lifetime of locust, that make like SH was kind of a tank with 20-30+ range which can relocate really fast.
With lurker, Zerg know have a ground sieged units, so making SH back to HOTS is not necessary for balance.
But SH is now a weird unit, just a nexus killer or anti-building. But it need a lot of tech, and a lot of supply money for that while other units can make kind of the same but can be used on a fight while SH are useless at fighting army units, so nobody use it.
Just make SH fit another role than Zerg need and it will be used.
IMO, if they turn SH into AA, like they release locusts than can only shoot air, you will see plenty of SH made (if the cost and the supply isn't too high) vs T/P and even vs Z, as Zerg lack anti-air compare to the other race.
I'd like a game whereby all units that you can make have their usage in at least one match up.
By the way, those who are saying 'we need to look at other areas that are problematic': one possible approach would be: 'take a look at units that are currently under/not used to see if they can maybe fix that spot'.
For example: if mass air is a problem, buffing swarm hosts against mass air, but not against small air (however you may do that) would be a solution. I am not saying that's the way to go, but it's a way.
I would love to be able to make swarm hosts in an non-overpowered, but usable way.
I can see that the PTS from HotS SH still lingers. I wasn't a huge fan of mass SH either, but watching TLO utilize SH drop harass was the most beautiful thing in starcraft. Similarly Snute's SH play in LotV left me speechless. No question, SH is the least seen unit in the game right now, even more rare than motherships. Funnily enough, the unfamiliarity playing against them is what's making building SH kind of viable. I am only diamond, but I've been laddering by building 5-6 SH instead of mutas midgame. Although it is heavily map dependent, it is a breath of fresh air for myself and sometimes even my opponents. I am loving the idea of less cost more supply Blizzard, I can see SH being a viable support unit in groups 5-6. Although don't rush and make huge number buffs; I don't want other people to start using them too much!
Im just gonna come out and say it. Starcraft must not generate a lot of capital for blizzard compared to monthly subs for WoW and all the B/s u can buy (Skins,Mounts,characters,stimpacks) for Heros of the storm. Think about it, you buy sc2 once for 40$'s and that's all the money they get off you. Meanwhile they have to keep putting money into changes, so i honestly think they are designing a game that is imbalanced and frustrating so we'll go play other blizzard games and make them more money.
On April 21 2016 04:57 BazookaBenji1 wrote:so i honestly think they are designing a game that is imbalanced and frustrating so we'll go play other blizzard games and make them more money.
That is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I've heard.
It'll be interesting to see what changes occur, if any. Gotta say, I'm kinda surprised by the sheer amount of vitriol coming out of everyone at even the thought of a proposed swarm host change. It's not like the game's going to immediately switch into swarm host turtle mode.
On April 21 2016 04:57 BazookaBenji1 wrote: Im just gonna come out and say it. Starcraft must not generate a lot of capital for blizzard compared to monthly subs for WoW and all the B/s u can buy (Skins,Mounts,characters,stimpacks) for Heros of the storm. Think about it, you buy sc2 once for 40$'s and that's all the money they get off you. Meanwhile they have to keep putting money into changes, so i honestly think they are designing a game that is imbalanced and frustrating so we'll go play other blizzard games and make them more money.
I've been thinking about that alot. It's a bit too tinfoilhat, sure, but let's not forget this isn't the old Blizzard anymore. The fact that people even think up these theories about them says something about the state of the game.
On April 21 2016 04:57 BazookaBenji1 wrote: Im just gonna come out and say it. Starcraft must not generate a lot of capital for blizzard compared to monthly subs for WoW and all the B/s u can buy (Skins,Mounts,characters,stimpacks) for Heros of the storm. Think about it, you buy sc2 once for 40$'s and that's all the money they get off you. Meanwhile they have to keep putting money into changes, so i honestly think they are designing a game that is imbalanced and frustrating so we'll go play other blizzard games and make them more money.
Because the first thing I'd do as an angry consumer would be to give the company that angered me MORE money
On April 21 2016 04:57 BazookaBenji1 wrote: Im just gonna come out and say it. Starcraft must not generate a lot of capital for blizzard compared to monthly subs for WoW and all the B/s u can buy (Skins,Mounts,characters,stimpacks) for Heros of the storm. Think about it, you buy sc2 once for 40$'s and that's all the money they get off you. Meanwhile they have to keep putting money into changes, so i honestly think they are designing a game that is imbalanced and frustrating so we'll go play other blizzard games and make them more money.
Because the first thing I'd do as an angry consumer would be to give the company that angered me MORE money
Sound like a Blizzard's supporter. I don't see what's wrong with this :D.
I think that's a little too tinfoil hat. I think the reality, is just like any other business, they've slimmed the team down to barebones, so you have a handful of passionate yet limited individuals. The executives will never give them more resources until the next money project comes around, so they're stuck dealing with all our bullcrap about the actual game design with like 5 guys with whatever money is on the line with e-sports teams already. I'm sure there's a political side we're not even privy to, so the most politically sexy option is to not rock the boat, despite enthusiast dreams. The diehards aren't going anywhere, so who cares. They still have a brand to protect, so they won't abandon Starcraft.
Here is the deal with Swarm Hosts... the idea wasn't executed right from the beginning...
The Swarm Host should spawn Broodlings, not a ranged unit, the Broodlings should move very quickly, (almost as fast as Speedlings) but die in ~10 or less seconds. The spawn timer should be relatively low too. Those change alone means that massing Swarm Hosts isn't viable, because only a certain amount of Broodlings could attack at once (they would have collision) and the ones in the back would die off before they got to fight.
It does mean, however, that a few Swarm Hosts split off from the main army could harass an expansion effectively and force a response. It also means that you'd see a few in an army to support the army, but again, over doing is just wasteful because the melee Broodling will just get stuck behind each other.
If you did that you could remove Broodlords and replace them with Guardians and give them more micro opportunities. Zerg doesn't need so many "free units."
On April 21 2016 07:32 Rollora wrote: Why not take it out of the game completely. Simply the design of the unit is idiotic and frustrating sometimes because of the free unit concept.
I agree, remove it from the game. Units that cost minerals fighting against free units is not good in anyway.
On April 21 2016 07:13 BronzeKnee wrote: Here is the deal with Swarm Hosts... the idea wasn't executed right from the beginning...
The Swarm Host should spawn Broodlings, not a ranged unit, the Broodlings should move very quickly, (almost as fast as Speedlings) but die in ~10 or less seconds. The spawn timer should be relatively low too. Those change alone means that massing Swarm Hosts isn't viable, because only a certain amount of Broodlings could attack at once (they would have collision) and the ones in the back would die off before they got to fight.
It does mean, however, that a few Swarm Hosts split off from the main army could harass an expansion effectively and force a response. It also means that you'd see a few in an army to support the army, but again, over doing is just wasteful because the melee Broodling will just get stuck behind each other.
If you did that you could remove Broodlords and replace them with Guardians and give them more micro opportunities. Zerg doesn't need so many "free units."
Hmm, this doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me! Melee Broodlings could be dealt with by ranged units decently, and if they time out pretty fast, they don't give Swarm Hosts an insane siege range which made them the untouchable siege units they were in HotS. But you could plant some beside an enemy base and harass with them, and they would be viable defense as well. At the same time, they could be attacked, unlike the old Swarm Hosts, so they could be removed if it comes to a direct engagement.
One minor detail is, should SH need to be burrowed to spawn Broodlings? Because if so, it would be very reminiscent of Lurkers (a unit that has no attack normally, but deals considerable damage while burrowed) – this is not necessarily a bad thing; it could give players a choice. If not, it might be a bit strong, but at least you could micro it constantly (something, something, micro potential, something, something, cool factor).
On April 21 2016 07:13 BronzeKnee wrote: Here is the deal with Swarm Hosts... the idea wasn't executed right from the beginning...
The Swarm Host should spawn Broodlings, not a ranged unit, the Broodlings should move very quickly, (almost as fast as Speedlings) but die in ~10 or less seconds. The spawn timer should be relatively low too. Those change alone means that massing Swarm Hosts isn't viable, because only a certain amount of Broodlings could attack at once (they would have collision) and the ones in the back would die off before they got to fight.
It does mean, however, that a few Swarm Hosts split off from the main army could harass an expansion effectively and force a response. It also means that you'd see a few in an army to support the army, but again, over doing is just wasteful because the melee Broodling will just get stuck behind each other.
If you did that you could remove Broodlords and replace them with Guardians and give them more micro opportunities. Zerg doesn't need so many "free units."
Hmm, this doesn't sound like a bad idea at all to me! Melee Broodlings could be dealt with by ranged units decently, and if they time out pretty fast, they don't give Swarm Hosts an insane siege range which made them the untouchable siege units they were in HotS. But you could plant some beside an enemy base and harass with them, and they would be viable defense as well. At the same time, they could be attacked, unlike the old Swarm Hosts, so they could be removed if it comes to a direct engagement.
One minor detail is, should SH need to be burrowed to spawn Broodlings? Because if so, it would be very reminiscent of Lurkers (a unit that has no attack normally, but deals considerable damage while burrowed) – this is not necessarily a bad thing; it could give players a choice. If not, it might be a bit strong, but at least you could micro it constantly (something, something, micro potential, something, something, cool factor).
In the eyes of Blizzard micro means more buttons to press. See Protoss.
Locusts were originally melee units; I don't think changing them back is the way to go. We HAVE something that fires broodlings already.
One idea I'd love to see tried would be this: make it so a burrowed Swarm Host generates a small patch of creep and spawns larvae. It stockpiles,say, three gradually while unburrowed and spawns them all at once when burrowed, then they tick out at intervals like a hatchery.
While unburrowed, hitting the 'spawn locusts' button would eject all stockpiled larvae as fast-hatching locusts. That way you could spawn just a few locusts at quite rapid intervals, or stockpile them for a big push.
EPT
