EPTI don't think anything sh related could sound different
[Blizz] Swarm Host Update - Page 3
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
I don't think anything sh related could sound different | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On April 20 2016 07:00 Yuk.on wrote: Do you ever do anything but complain? The list does not go on and on.. The game is in a really good state right now. Anyway, I think it might be safer to not do any drastic changes to the Swarmhost, and just focus on the other changes for this patch, The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On April 20 2016 08:33 Tresher wrote: The list goes on and NO the game is NOT in a good state right now. While this is coming from a person that complains a lot (avilo) there is still some truth in there. They are saying since HotS they want to make Mech viable and nothing happens. People are fed up with Bio, Bio, Bio every game. Last time I watched a Terran streamer I only saw Roach/Ravager allins or Viper/Ultralisk crap. Terran High Tier Units are nonexistent (Cyclone/Siege Tanks/Thor/BC). Im not sure about Protoss and how it looks there. I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite | ||
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TheGrandFandangler
6 Posts
On April 20 2016 05:42 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Nice, stronger Swarmhosts. Now zerg can turtle harder and mech will be even worse to play vs zerg. Does Blizzard really want to see EVERY FCKING match Bio liberator? oh wait, they said once: "we see too much bio parades" so we buffed the ultralisk, and the counter to the biocounter is ANOTHER bio unit (ghost). Epic army composition, lurker, swarmhost, broodlord (nice siege units) with ultralisk, infestor and corruptor. Try to beat that! oh wait and the endless static defence + queens Is blizzard really forcing us to leave sc2 and start playing Overwatch?... hi avilo \o | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
- test dmg vs light and dmg vs armored difference - lower the hp of the locusts so that they hit harder but die very quickly - make them attack building only, for a late game harass plan - tune the locusts movement speed -and so on and so on The issue here I think is the question is bad : "What should we do to make sh useful again, but not in mass" is asking to think about solutions instead of thinking about the problem. I'd much prefer think about this question instead : " What could the SH be used for, that no other zerg units is already doing?" Like : "what is the need the SH should be answering to?" Let's identify the need and then we'll be able to find a solution. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On April 20 2016 05:40 The_Red_Viper wrote: Swarm hosts are a flawed concept to begin with, pls don't try to bring them back -.- If you wanna use the game model then redesign it from scratch Just this. It's the main reason I've not played this unit at all in Hots (very seldomly at least) | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
Burst/combat damage vs damage over time is a very difficult design struggle. It was a bit of an identity problem for starcraft. In HOTS, we ended up with INnoVation vs ByuL type of games, SH games etc. There was a lot of love/hate, mostly hate. Now, in search of exciting games, we have swift 1-4base army movement pendulum games that sometimes end too abruptly and close to no mech/split map games at all. Most late-game map layouts hardly matter, because 4+ base almost never happens. (Think of the top and bottom middle bases on Invader LE, or to some extent the gold bases. Not really used a whole lot.) It's like two different worlds collided and 1-4base (20-170supply) beat 5-8base (~200/200). People cried over SH/mech games. Slow paced - bases mined out ... bad. Now we don't have any bases beyond 4-5 (usually) being mined pretty much except for the odd super-lucky game, or a game where a few stylistically stubborn players do it. Usually the game runs on the 1-4base aggro pendulum. And that's part of the reason why the design of end-game units is not developing so quickly. Immortals, ravagers, liberators receive all the attention because they're effective and relevant. BC's are NOT. Long games are anomalies for the most part. If you want Battlecruisers, Nukes, Carriers etc. to be viable, one has to be comfortable with it being OK for defensive play to happen, have it be OK for defensive play to be strong. Right now, players can't tech too hard because the default aggro builds just win. If people could defend more easily, you would reach 200/200 and 5-8base. Some designs are currently tediously slow or just straight up boring at this stage, though. Such as blobs of Sky Zerg trying to abduct a Sky Protoss slowly chipping away at spores with nothing else going on. If certain spells/ranged units work a certain way, these dynamics WILL be stale real fast. ^ above: a LOTV "Mech vs Mech" game with mostly Burst Damage units. Almost no Damage over Time (DoT) is involved for either player. Few snipes, no swarm host, few infested terran/fungal, very limited viper usage (outside of burst fights), no yamato. In this game, it was not necessary for me to invest into SH, because neither Battlecruisers or Ghost Snipe posed a big DoT threat. The game was won by army advantage, map control advantage, and resource advantage. Think of a 2base nydus worm allin. It's like an army crushing death beam mega laser hitting straight to the core. And then a 8 base Zerg that uses a nydus worm for ultralisk harass. A distraction tool, designed to pull you apart at the edges. Nydus worm has this built-in versatility, it fits in both worlds. I don't think the same can be said for Swarm Host, and I'm not sure how you could balance it to fit both worlds. Does it have to fit in both? No, but with the current state of ZvP (Tempest) i wouldn't exactly expect Swarm Host to be built no matter what because Zerg doesn't simply stay defensive and other units do the aggro tasks better, unless the Swarm Host has its stats buffed. If you allow resources to be invested in weak/harassment-DoT units, turtling usually ends up going together with it. Either you attack or you don't. Think of mass muta/lurker: you don't deal a ton of damage with your mutas crippling the Protoss to death to then unburrow your lurkers to Protoss' base. It doesn't make sense. Same will happen to Swarm Host, if it has little combat value but tremendous DoT. Why would you NOT be patient? Regardless of stats, the neo-Swarm Host is still increasingly useful the longer the game goes. It's a very unique trait not shared by many other units. Yes, you can bring it to a fight but caution and slow is still the name of the game. If you're not 100% sure you can fight, you sure as hell don't do it, because you don't take such a risk with fragile units when you have a guaranteed benefit over time that the opposing race/player might not have an answer to. And if bringing Swarm Host to a fight is what it's about, then ... aren't they just like free Zerglings then? A zombie host that allows you to invest over time at the "risk" of getting caught more easily, I suppose. This "risk" being very varied. What kind of Protoss would chase after a Hydra/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost army outside of Photon Overcharge/Sentry safe haven? LOL. Oh wait, I guess you could. But what does Zerg end up doing then? Turtle harder, and launch more SH missiles to get back into it. Another part about the neo-SH: There are few counter-plays to it. It's a frustrating unit to play against and not "fun", because the locust land, maybe you storm them or pop an overcharge, retreat your units or whatever. But the locust will time out and that's it. There is no persistent threat in your base that you can kill off or achieve a trade against, no real investment UNTIL..... ...You: 1) Find the Swarm Host and hunt them down (phoenix, oracle, observer, voidray, dt etc. vs host/nydus/overlords). 2) Take your entire army, capitalize on the advantage while SH are on cooldown, and YOLO 1a. And honorable mention to: ! 3) Sitting there taking damage, teching up to the ultimate deathball and winning with a strong base/army core that Zerg's army can't damage anymore. MECH! Maybe the counter-play would be to not let the Swarm Host get too close to your main or 4th base's surrounding terrain to begin with? Compared to a relatively complex challenge like a lurker drop on a high ground followed up by a nydus worm, it isn't exactly amazing design when a bunch of locust fly into your base. You don't know where the SH are unless you have perfect information. You can calculate the supply invested into SH, but if a player can turtle or back off appropriately, the best you can do is to push the swarm hosts back to inevitable safety while you go for an appropriate response (Mech? Deathball? Tempest?) of your own. And you just kind of sit there. It's really frustrating to balance. Give the races too much DoT value and people will play passive, and there will be no counter except for full-grown 50:50 SPLIT MECH games (ByuL vs INno). Remove all defensive play/DoT and games will end on 4 bases maximum with no end-games, no high-tech units and most likely no occasional mined-out dramas. You can't buff DoT units without the risk of producing Mech games, and currently the game is 99% Bio. So many changes have pushed Bio. If you're not a fan of Mech as a playstyle, then yes. Swarm Host are scary by design. Tempest are scary by design, especially the maxed-out kind with cannons underneath and a Mothership. The new ghost, given appropriate space and breathing room, and Yamato Cannon, are scary by design. But it's important to state here that split map mech games don't have to be boring, if proper late-game tools exist. If the opposing side can't have success with superior income and/or burst damage, you get mech vs mech. And it can be cool or it can be awful, depending on the unit design at T3 and how DoT and Burst are weighted against one another. Tools like Teleport (nydus, arbiter, "doomdrop", "prism", recall, BC tactical jump) help spice up RTS end-game. AoE Stuns and Damage such as Stasis/Vortex/Parasitic Bomb/Nuke as well, punishing extreme clumping and challenging positions. Blinding Cloud as well, if it covers enough ground and lasts long enough. (Dark Swarm, Plague) If Sustained DoT time-bombs such as Tempest and Swarm Host are cool as well? Not so sure. But right now, we don't see mech games because the design doesn't favor it as much compared to mid-game burst damage anyway, so... "nobody cares". the CatZ ZvZ vod linked earlier showed a great Swarm Host ZvZ, I recommend checking it out. https://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/v/61519049?t=78m37s ^ These types of games can be pretty cool in my opinion. As long as the Swarm Host based composition isn't totally unbeatable (reminiscent of pre-frenzied broodlord Swarmhost/Viper/Spore mirror wars), these types of games should be very fun. In ZvZ it's still possible (to some extent) walk over this composition with SH cooldown baiting followed by excellent Blinding Cloud, Ultralisk, Transfuse and Baneling usage. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On April 20 2016 08:35 showstealer1829 wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite Do people actually read what others write or do they just see his name and start jumping on the hate train -_- ? I´ve never said "listen to him" I know he whines a lot. Still there is some truth behind it. Saying the game is in a good state when it´s not is just ignorant. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 20 2016 09:00 Liquid`Snute wrote: You can't buff DoT units without the risk of producing Mech games, and currently the game is 99% Bio. So many changes have pushed Bio. If you're not a fan of Mech as a playstyle, then yes. Swarm Host are scary by design. Tempest are scary by design, especially the maxed-out kind with cannons underneath and a Mothership. The new ghost, given appropriate space and breathing room, and Yamato Cannon, are scary by design. But it's important to state here that split map mech games don't have to be boring, if proper late-game tools exist. If the opposing side can't have success with superior income and/or burst damage, you get mech vs mech. And it can be cool or it can be awful, depending on the unit design at T3 and how DoT and Burst are weighted against one another. Tools like Teleport (nydus, arbiter, "doomdrop", "prism", recall, BC tactical jump) help spice up RTS end-game. AoE Stuns and Damage such as Stasis/Vortex/Parasitic Bomb/Nuke as well, punishing extreme clumping and challenging positions. Blinding Cloud as well, if it covers enough ground and lasts long enough. (Dark Swarm, Plague) If Sustained DoT time-bombs such as Tempest and Swarm Host are cool as well? Not so sure. But right now, we don't see mech games because the design doesn't favor it as much compared to mid-game burst damage anyway, so... "nobody cares". Brilliant xD As i said before. Swarm host will become viable if mech exist cause they want swarm host become a harrasser but why you even bother to produce swarm host when you have ling run by and mut mut ? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16061 Posts
On April 20 2016 08:35 showstealer1829 wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, to make SC2 better take what avilo says and do the exact opposite So we should make 2 supply tempests,10 armor ultras, stronger vipers and ravagers, make nydus worm permanently invincible,buff pylons and adept/warpprism and buff air armies from all races to the point that ground units are worthless in the game? I don't think I like your vision of the game.. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
honestly i will pay for them to just remove the unit instead of fixing it. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
My idea: Make the swarm host into the reaver 2.0. It can build "infested terrans" for minerals and hold X charges. The infested terrans act like scarabs in bw and explode on contact. Counteract this with making them quite slow, such that they require overlords to quickly transport them across the map (or nydus). This will allow them to be useful for defense, aggression and breaking siege positions. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On April 20 2016 10:12 Charoisaur wrote: So we should make 2 supply tempests,10 armor ultras, stronger vipers and ravagers, make nydus worm permanently invincible,buff pylons and adept/warpprism and buff air armies from all races to the point that ground units are worthless in the game? I support anything to get rid of avilo from the game faster. User was warned for this post | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
Please reduce spawn time/increase locust move speed. I don't care if locust dps gets nerfed. It's so lame that SH can only attack once a minute when games end between 13-16 minutes. Lair finishes around 5-6 minutes and then I have to wait for the Infestation Pit and then the spawn time for my SH. So really when I have my SH around 8 minutes, they'll only get to use their attacks maybe 8-12 times before the game ends. That is NOT fun. | ||
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SpiritOfChicago
19 Posts
The unit concept is really cool, very Zerg-y. I'm glad you're making efforts to get it back into games! | ||
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SpiritOfChicago
19 Posts
On April 20 2016 12:55 FabledIntegral wrote: Make each locust wave cost anywhere between 5-20 minerals (depending on the downtime and strength) and there will be less incentive to spam. Even 5 minerals per wave would be a deterrent. Five minerals per wave would be a little too little, no?  | ||
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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