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On April 12 2016 15:44 ZerglingSoup wrote:If only Starcraft pros had the same grit and dedication as WoW players: + Show Spoiler +
Yea, sucks that there's no way to stop the game from happening without looking suspicious. I mean, if you tell someone you're gonna go to the bathroom, what do you expect them to do, just stop clicking stuff? It's bullshit that games like SC2 have all these bells and whistles, but no button that would give you a sort of intermission or something. Oh wait.
And it's also too bad that you really can't just get up after every game, win or lose SC2 queues matchmaking right up, without your input. It doesn't care if you have to take a dump or if you're sick or if you need to take your medicine or make up an excuse. It just automatically loads the next game with no input from you. Oh wait.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
Yea, sucks that there's no way to stop the game from happening without looking suspicious. I mean, if you tell someone you're gonna go to the bathroom, what do you expect them to do, just stop clicking stuff? It's bullshit that games like SC2 have all these bells and whistles, but no button that would give you a sort of intermission or something. Oh wait
Half of the time your opponent unpauses immediately or 5 seconds after you leave
It just automatically loads the next game with no input from you. Oh wait.
This part i agree with, but it's not just about that at all. We have never judged players based on if they played to their best in a few ladder games before.
Pros routinely screw around on ladder, some of the best players in the world have been known to play ladder without scouting to get into some crazy situations and try to handle them. That's obviously not trying their best to win the game, should that be bannable too? That's really what it comes down to - we have people being labeled as matchfixers for not trying their best in ladder games.
I think that the reasoning here is pretty silly and would not leave games like that myself but i'm sure that i and many others could be accused and punished in the same way for not trying 110% on every ladder game. If that is what blizzard wants (or not what they want) then they should make it extremely clear right now.
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Can't we agree on that it's stupid that you get points for your opponent leaving before there was any contact on the map? Yes, a penalty is in order for that, but no reward!
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On April 12 2016 17:18 schaf wrote:
Can't we agree on that it's stupid that you get points for your opponent leaving before there was any contact on the map? Yes, a penalty is in order for that, but no reward!
It's fine, it happens quite rarely and a few points doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, player's points will eventually even out to where they belong if they put in enough games.
Also if they didn't award points to victories within a time limit then Firecake would have a new way to grief people.
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On April 12 2016 12:07 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 00:24 Grizvok wrote:On April 11 2016 23:10 FFW_Rude wrote:On April 11 2016 23:00 Cyro wrote:And it's a bannable offense to leave games. Everyone knows that Nobody knows that. It's never been done aside from extreme abuses like leaving 50 games in a row, and even then most of those guys don't get any attention. Maybe not everyone then. I know it's in the TOS and thought it was one of the few things that was known from it (that and 3rd party programs and do not share your account). And yes, it's for abuse (to lower your MMR i would imagine) Yeah nobody knows that. I knew it and I assumed it was widely known.
Yeah that's what i thought too. Well. Our bad then 
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Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously.
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On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously.
Especially since English is his first language.
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On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously.
You're doing yourself a disservice if you neglect substance when discussing ideas just because you don't approve of the form.
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On April 13 2016 00:00 DonDomingo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously. You're doing yourself a disservice if you neglect substance when discussing ideas just because you don't approve of the form.
While that is a valid statement, last time I checked "pro" stood for "professional".
So a certain degree of professionalism would certainly be nice.
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Well since the game doesnt have an endpoint other than destroying all your opponent buildings, which never happens, it's left to the appreciation of the player to see when they lost. So you cant really punish that. I mean, you could just leave because yoiu scouted a hard counter build from your opponent, without actually losing one unit/building
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Never forget that in Blizzard are working the same guys who do the balance of the game, and try to rule the community, and organize tournaments.
FAIL
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On April 12 2016 17:07 Cyro wrote:
Half of the time your opponent unpauses immediately or 5 seconds after you leave
Then the result will be the same as if Major had just left the game, except it would make it seem like he at least had some intention of playing the game and not just leaving it at the countdown timer. If you're on a ranked ladder which leads to a tournament and therefore money, I think it isn't too much to ask a progamer to act like a progamer. "PP" F10 + P "I need to use the bathroom," would have resolved all of the issues Major is facing right now.
Pros routinely screw around on ladder, some of the best players in the world have been known to play ladder without scouting to get into some crazy situations and try to handle them. That's obviously not trying their best to win the game, should that be bannable too? That's really what it comes down to - we have people being labeled as matchfixers for not trying their best in ladder games.
I think that the reasoning here is pretty silly and would not leave games like that myself but i'm sure that i and many others could be accused and punished in the same way for not trying 110% on every ladder game. If that is what blizzard wants (or not what they want) then they should make it extremely clear right now.
But have they done this during an official WCS ladder qualifier? This is something new, and I don't see why it should be tolerated that professional gamers act ignorantly and irresponsibly during what was obviously a critical time on ladder.
It's not that he didn't try his best - he didn't even play the game. He left during the countdown. I find it hard to believe that from the moment he pressed the matchmaking button to when he left the game, something came up that he didn't foresee. By his own admission, he went to take his medicine. Is that something that could not have waited 5 more seconds with "pp" f10 + p? By his own admission, he was dropping games and not playing to the best of his ability all day because he was sick and had to run to the bathroom. So he was aware of the situation, yet continued to press onwards, playing during a ladder qualifier that he had no stake in and giving free points to people. That's what it comes down to; people being labelled as matchfixers for a string of either dumb or suspicious decisions, depending on how you look at it. Either way, the end result is the same.
Didn't Blizzard put it in TOS that you should play each ladder game to the best of your ability? I think someone quoted it on an earlier page or in the other thread. So, it WAS made clear. Don't fault Blizzard for people not reading the documents they affirmed.
On April 12 2016 23:48 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously. Especially since English is his first language.
English is not my first language, but I don't think you can say that I sound like a "petulant middle schooler." I will warrant a guess and say that English is not your first language either, but I wouldn't be able to say that about you either. As far as presentation goes, I know Spanish, and the punctuation works in a very similar fashion. Grammar is somewhat different but not so much so that if he translated his thoughts directly from Spanish to English, it would become illegible. The issue that Orr is talking about, from my interpretation, is how much effort he is putting into it, which is not enough.
On April 13 2016 00:00 DonDomingo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously. You're doing yourself a disservice if you neglect substance when discussing ideas just because you don't approve of the form.
Communication in real life is 10% verbal and 90% non-verbal, or something like that. I wouldn't say that writing is quite as drastically distributed, but style IS an important factor of how your ideas are interpreted. You know the adage, "It's not what you say but how you say it." If you don't care enough to present your ideas in a comprehensive and adult manner, then why should a reader care enough to appreciate, understand, or believe them? This falls back to what I said in response to Incognoto: it speaks of how much effort he is putting into this, in other words how seriously he takes the situation. It's not up to par, in my opinion.
And, I would like to note that Orr specifically pointed out that he doesn't know enough about the player or the situation to make a verdict, so he focused on the one thing he can knowingly comment on. That's a responsible disclaimer and his consequent analysis is based on a foundation he made clear to us all. You judging him for neglecting substance when he said from the start that's not what he is focusing on in his statement is just blowing hot air.
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well, i guess i should be banned according to TOS then ))
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Calling this match fixing is really harsh because it puts him in the category of Life, Savior and all the other match fixers, when what he did is nothing even close to that.
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On April 13 2016 01:57 Luolis wrote:
well, i guess i should be banned according to TOS then ))
Did you go on a different region server during a WCS qualifier and give free points in the hours leading up to the cut-off date to your teammate?
No?
I think you're good bro.
On April 13 2016 02:19 CrayonPopChoa wrote:
Calling this match fixing is really harsh because it puts him in the category of Life, Savior and all the other match fixers, when what he did is nothing even close to that.
I wouldn't call this matchfixing, I'd call it "giving free wins," but I can see how matchfixing is relevant here. However, I don't think anyone considers him to be anywhere near the same league as Life or Savior. Just like there are manslaughters, murders, and then there is Stalin or Mao. All technically killed people, but I think it's commonly understood that they are not equivalent in any metric.
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When you are already qualified or if its sure that you qualify, then you can help worse player to qualify by wintrading, so that you have less competition at the tournament.
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On April 13 2016 01:44 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 17:07 Cyro wrote:
Half of the time your opponent unpauses immediately or 5 seconds after you leave Then the result will be the same as if Major had just left the game, except it would make it seem like he at least had some intention of playing the game and not just leaving it at the countdown timer. If you're on a ranked ladder which leads to a tournament and therefore money, I think it isn't too much to ask a progamer to act like a progamer. "PP" F10 + P "I need to use the bathroom," would have resolved all of the issues Major is facing right now. Show nested quote +Pros routinely screw around on ladder, some of the best players in the world have been known to play ladder without scouting to get into some crazy situations and try to handle them. That's obviously not trying their best to win the game, should that be bannable too? That's really what it comes down to - we have people being labeled as matchfixers for not trying their best in ladder games.
I think that the reasoning here is pretty silly and would not leave games like that myself but i'm sure that i and many others could be accused and punished in the same way for not trying 110% on every ladder game. If that is what blizzard wants (or not what they want) then they should make it extremely clear right now. But have they done this during an official WCS ladder qualifier? This is something new, and I don't see why it should be tolerated that professional gamers act ignorantly and irresponsibly during what was obviously a critical time on ladder. It's not that he didn't try his best - he didn't even play the game. He left during the countdown. I find it hard to believe that from the moment he pressed the matchmaking button to when he left the game, something came up that he didn't foresee. By his own admission, he went to take his medicine. Is that something that could not have waited 5 more seconds with "pp" f10 + p? By his own admission, he was dropping games and not playing to the best of his ability all day because he was sick and had to run to the bathroom. So he was aware of the situation, yet continued to press onwards, playing during a ladder qualifier that he had no stake in and giving free points to people. That's what it comes down to; people being labelled as matchfixers for a string of either dumb or suspicious decisions, depending on how you look at it. Either way, the end result is the same. Didn't Blizzard put it in TOS that you should play each ladder game to the best of your ability? I think someone quoted it on an earlier page or in the other thread. So, it WAS made clear. Don't fault Blizzard for people not reading the documents they affirmed.
Just because it's in a TOS doesn't make it legal. The legality of TOS have not been fully tested in a court of law. Companies routinely put all sorts of shit there, knowing that people don't have the money to pay lawyers to challenge it. Courts are not going to enforce something vague like "best of your ability" based upon Blizzard's definition of it unless Blizzard releases a full rule book defining the term in a legally valid manner.
And you're blaming people for a poorly run, poorly implemented, poorly conceived part of the tournament? So if I'm an NA player, I can't play normally in Europe at this time if I choose not to participate in Europe's qualifier? I can't screw around and play for fun? As the Bunny controversy shows, a non-pro can give away wins just as easily. What if a pro decides to only participate in the non-ladder qualifiers and decides to not participate in the ladder qualifiers? What then? Still forced to take those days seriously? Why subject the rest of the player base to this?
Face it, the ladder portion should never have happened. You're blaming players for improperly putting a bandaid on a wound of a terminally ill patient when Blizzard created the cancer in the first place. There's no way anybody in their right mind would think this was a good idea once they start thinking of all the rules that must be in place and all the possible player behaviors there would be in the ladder. All of this enforces what a bad idea this was in the first place. Strictly implementing the rules of a dumb idea isn't going to make it smarter.
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On April 13 2016 03:17 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 01:44 Jealous wrote:On April 12 2016 17:07 Cyro wrote:
Half of the time your opponent unpauses immediately or 5 seconds after you leave Then the result will be the same as if Major had just left the game, except it would make it seem like he at least had some intention of playing the game and not just leaving it at the countdown timer. If you're on a ranked ladder which leads to a tournament and therefore money, I think it isn't too much to ask a progamer to act like a progamer. "PP" F10 + P "I need to use the bathroom," would have resolved all of the issues Major is facing right now. Pros routinely screw around on ladder, some of the best players in the world have been known to play ladder without scouting to get into some crazy situations and try to handle them. That's obviously not trying their best to win the game, should that be bannable too? That's really what it comes down to - we have people being labeled as matchfixers for not trying their best in ladder games.
I think that the reasoning here is pretty silly and would not leave games like that myself but i'm sure that i and many others could be accused and punished in the same way for not trying 110% on every ladder game. If that is what blizzard wants (or not what they want) then they should make it extremely clear right now. But have they done this during an official WCS ladder qualifier? This is something new, and I don't see why it should be tolerated that professional gamers act ignorantly and irresponsibly during what was obviously a critical time on ladder. It's not that he didn't try his best - he didn't even play the game. He left during the countdown. I find it hard to believe that from the moment he pressed the matchmaking button to when he left the game, something came up that he didn't foresee. By his own admission, he went to take his medicine. Is that something that could not have waited 5 more seconds with "pp" f10 + p? By his own admission, he was dropping games and not playing to the best of his ability all day because he was sick and had to run to the bathroom. So he was aware of the situation, yet continued to press onwards, playing during a ladder qualifier that he had no stake in and giving free points to people. That's what it comes down to; people being labelled as matchfixers for a string of either dumb or suspicious decisions, depending on how you look at it. Either way, the end result is the same. Didn't Blizzard put it in TOS that you should play each ladder game to the best of your ability? I think someone quoted it on an earlier page or in the other thread. So, it WAS made clear. Don't fault Blizzard for people not reading the documents they affirmed. Just because it's in a TOS doesn't make it legal. The legality of TOS have not been fully tested in a court of law. Companies routinely put all sorts of shit there, knowing that people don't have the money to pay lawyers to challenge it. Courts are not going to enforce something vague like "best of your ability" based upon Blizzard's definition of it unless Blizzard releases a full rule book defining the term in a legally valid manner. And you're blaming people for a poorly run, poorly implemented, poorly conceived part of the tournament? So if I'm an NA player, I can't play normally in Europe at this time if I choose not to participate in Europe's qualifier? I can't screw around and play for fun? As the Bunny controversy shows, a non-pro can give away wins just as easily. What if a pro decides to only participate in the non-ladder qualifiers and decides to not participate in the ladder qualifiers? What then? Still forced to take those days seriously? Why subject the rest of the player base to this? Face it, the ladder portion should never have happened. You're blaming players for improperly putting a bandaid on a wound of a terminally ill patient when Blizzard created the cancer in the first place. There's no way anybody in their right mind would think this was a good idea once they start thinking of all the rules that must be in place and all the possible player behaviors there would be in the ladder. All of this enforces what a bad idea this was in the first place. Strictly implementing the rules of a dumb idea isn't going to make it smarter.
I never once supported Blizzard's implementation of this ladder qualifier, their PR, or their handling of this case. I only wrote about things concerning Major, the reasons why I find his story questionable, and the fact that no matter how you cut it he did give the free points. That is all. Legality has nothing to do with this because Blizzard made the rules, hosted the server, ran the qualifier, and punishes as they see fit. They are prosecutor, investigator, judge and jury. That is something that to me is fairly obvious and should have been considered before taking actions such as Major's, if they were truly blind and unintentional as he claims. Fairness was never part of the story.
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On April 13 2016 02:19 CrayonPopChoa wrote:
Calling this match fixing is really harsh because it puts him in the category of Life, Savior and all the other match fixers, when what he did is nothing even close to that.
Oh, the irony :-)
Putting a suspected/alleged matchfixer in the same category as a convicted matchfixer is harsh.
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On April 11 2016 16:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
There is zero chance of a players' union. Collective bargaining only works when there are giant owner-horded profits to bargain for. SC2 esports is a giant money loser.
I'm not so sure about that. Students' unions exist even though there's no profit to bargain for, for example. Bargaining for profits is just one of the main role unions are assuming nowadays, but the original reason you need unions is to protect the union members - who, typically, are supposed to be uninformed, numerous, and individually weak - against "unfair" (whatever does that mean) treatment by hierarchical powers. A players' union would fit right in in this case, since MajOr was indeed treated unfairly (no direct communication with him, not showing him proofs, not allowing him to defend himself, etc).
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EPT
