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On April 13 2016 13:50 Orr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 11:12 DonDomingo wrote:On April 13 2016 08:38 Jealous wrote:On April 13 2016 06:24 DonDomingo wrote:On April 13 2016 01:44 Jealous wrote:On April 13 2016 00:00 DonDomingo wrote:On April 12 2016 23:45 Orr wrote:
Don't know close to enough about the player or situation to render a verdict one way or another.
But Major's ranting social media posts do him no favors. If you are a progamer and this is your job, then you should take everything very seriously. And take the time to write out an articulate, grammatically correct piece using proper punctuation. And have someone with editing skills look it over first and make the necessary corrections.
His writing looks and sounds like a petulant middle schooler, which renders all of his points hard to take seriously. You're doing yourself a disservice if you neglect substance when discussing ideas just because you don't approve of the form. Communication in real life is 10% verbal and 90% non-verbal, or something like that. I wouldn't say that writing is quite as drastically distributed, but style IS an important factor of how your ideas are interpreted. You know the adage, "It's not what you say but how you say it." If you don't care enough to present your ideas in a comprehensive and adult manner, then why should a reader care enough to appreciate, understand, or believe them? This falls back to what I said in response to Incognoto: it speaks of how much effort he is putting into this, in other words how seriously he takes the situation. It's not up to par, in my opinion. And, I would like to note that Orr specifically pointed out that he doesn't know enough about the player or the situation to make a verdict, so he focused on the one thing he can knowingly comment on. That's a responsible disclaimer and his consequent analysis is based on a foundation he made clear to us all. You judging him for neglecting substance when he said from the start that's not what he is focusing on in his statement is just blowing hot air. Seems like you missed that I was only commenting on the bolded part. Why should you as a reader care enough to appriciate, understand, or believe someone whose style/form/grammar/vocabulary/semantics you do not approve of? To broaden your horizon? To try to become more enlightened by trying to assume someone else's point of view? If you dismiss an idea just because of how someone presented it, I do believe all you're accomplishing is clouding your own chance to make a sound judgement call. Im not saying that it would hurt if someone "makes an effort" when trying to explain themselves/present an idea in terms of how likely they are to "be taken seriously". All Im saying is striving to look past form to focus on what matters is not just a commendable notion that helps discussions/exchanges of ideas to be more civil and constructive, it also is a service to yourself. I did! My apologies. I answered to the whole text. I'm not sure where this line of questioning goes but the point is if the writer does not care, neither should the reader. If I were pleading my case and looking for support in a situation I felt was unjust, I would do my utmost to convince the reader. So far, I have not seen that level of effort from Major. That's all I'm saying. I dismiss the ideas because of WHAT was presented. I never commented on the presentation until people discredited Orr for his statements. Presentation was never a factor in my questioning/analysis of the situation. I did ignore semantics, syntax, and grammar in favor of looking at the statements themselves. I agree with you, but I don't think it should be overlooked that even after a situation where Major was at best careless and at worst a cheater, he continues to be careless in his writing. If I were in his position I would do as Orr said, have other people look over my statements and try to present the best possible face. That is all. Well, I do think Major tried to explain himself/handle the situation the best way he knew how. I, too, would have adviced him to ask friends of his with good English to help him out with PR - no disagreement between us there :D What I wrote about form and sustance wasnt adressed to you, by the way, at all. I just wrote "you" like the grammatical generic you instead of one because that sounds so wierd (at least to me). Major careless? xDD guilty as charged I was aware that English wasn't his first language before my initial post. And that has no bearing whatsoever on my initial contention. His personal integrity and professional future is on the line. And instead of taking the time to articulately compose a clear and concise response to the events in question, that will hopefully help clear his name in this critical domain of public judgement; he writes run-on, profanity laced tirades, using the caps-lock to try and accentuate important points, and an almost complete lack of acceptable formatting and punctuation. This is laughable in any language, considering the stakes. If we want others to take eSports seriously, and view progamers as legitimate professional athletes, then they need to act the part. The much more troubling part for me, is the actual underlying logic behind his arguments. In his first statement, the central tenant of his case is that because of his clearly superior win-rates against certain opposition, match-fixing can't be possible. When in reality, that is exactly the type of player most likely to be able to successfully cheat. It's pretty hard to alter the expected outcome of a game if you're the much inferior player and likely to lose straight up. In his second statement, his logic holds that since every other programmer is (allegedly) sharing accounts, even though he acknowledges it's against the rules, that absolves him of all responsibility. This type of thinking (lack of all personal accountability) is unfortunately far too prevalent in all facets of society nowadays. But he doesn't stop there. He builds off this existing fallacy, to claim that if action was taken against all cases of account sharing, that not only would the entire foreign pro scene collapse, but so too would the entire Korean one (where he states every single player there is guilty too). I've never watched Major's games, and have no stake in this either way. Definitely appears Blizzard lacked clear transparency, and handled the entire situation in a less than ideal way. But I took the time to read his statements, since match-fixing is the most serious offense any progamer can be accused of (within the confines of the actual game). And I came away troubled, by what little respect his responses indicated to me that he holds towards the entire SC2 professional scene, and by extension, the passionate fans like us on here, who are the very foundation of this great game.
To be fair he did wrote a statement on his FB page(in spanish), and was well written, not absolutely perfect, but well written and understandable, i think he was kinda desesperated when he wrote here. I still having a hard time believing Blizzard, because what does MajOr wins from letting certain guy win in a ladder game? i also want to see some proofs, i mean matchfixing it´s a serious thing that must be proved, even tho im mexican i´m not a big fan of Major, i prefer guys like Jimrising, but i must admit this is a very strong punch to the Mexican and latin american scene, i mean come on it´s not like we have tons of great players and i´ve seen him play live and the guy is fucking amazing at this game, he also makes interesting games and is one of the best foreign terrans, kinda sad :/, but personally i hope this ends in the best way, Alea iacta est.
PD. Please forgive my bad english ^_^ cheers.
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People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On April 13 2016 15:55 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 15:36 NyxNax wrote:
Not a whole lot of information to go on here. Nothing really from Blizzard and just a couple responses from Major Then again, when police arrests a suspect no one is asking for the evidence with the exception of that person and its lawyer ,-)
When the police arrest a suspect they present evidence against them in a court of law; they don't walk into their house and shoot them.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 13 2016 17:09 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 15:55 deacon.frost wrote:On April 13 2016 15:36 NyxNax wrote:
Not a whole lot of information to go on here. Nothing really from Blizzard and just a couple responses from Major Then again, when police arrests a suspect no one is asking for the evidence with the exception of that person and its lawyer ,-) When the police arrest a suspect they present evidence against them in a court of law; they don't walk into their house and shoot them.
In this state the police and the court is Blizzard. Deal with it. We all know this from the beginning. WHo doesn't like it can leave the SC2.
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On April 13 2016 16:15 Shortizz wrote:
People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum.
Normally I don't really take sides in such discussions, however I agree that MajOr is probably one of the few exceptions.
That doesn't take away his rights for an answer, however I also feel that if Blizzard would release details on MajOr's ban, they would set a precedent and would get more and more shitstorms over the years/ it would be harder to prove certain next bans.
We should just wait it out, as I'm almost positive that Blizzard -whatever you think of them- is highly aware of what reputation damage is capable of.
All I can say is that I'm not the least bit surprised MajOr got involved in something like this, since he's always been on the frontline of drama.
He also cancelled multiple events last minute, without letting organisations know on time, effectively costing them alot¹of money and time. He acts privileged and then lashes out on organizers publicly, most of the time without giving the organizers the time for explanation² (as is with most news, negative 'news' sparks much more reactions than positive, so damage would be done already).
If I would ever run an event, I would never include a player as unprofessional as this.
I sincerely hope for MajOr he gets his act together, because apart from playing SC2, I doubt he can get away with this behavior in ANY (work)environment if he continues on the path he's been on the last 4 years..
Regardless of what he did this time is really true or not. Such a player doesn't belong in the scene IMHO.
I would like to end this post with saying that in no way I consider MajOr a "cheater" or a "match-fixer". If this topic gets proven, I still wouldn't think it counts as fully "cheating". I merely think it's been a stupid mistake by some young boys who thought they could get away with "such a small thing". Ladder hasn't been 'this' competitive in SC2 ever, so it was just a wrong judgement-call. Even considering what I think of MajOr personally and for the sport, this isn't the way to lose a career over.
They shouldn't be perma-banned for this IMO, just 1 last warning to all.
¹
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/34ewj5/major_forfeits_once_again_in_kungfucup_after/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/451890-major-wont-forfeit-wcs-ro16-and-this-thread-was-terrible
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1scutc/demuslim_and_major_forfeit_shoutcraft_america/
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/388733-major-forfeits-his-hsc6-spot-due-to-illness?page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2g00xt/according_to_huk_and_harstem_on_twitter_major_is/
² (not specifically for MajOr, but we all know he's been a big factor to this)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/491037-the-organizers-alliance-against-absent-athletes
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On April 13 2016 16:03 Bill Murray wrote:
his actions and explanation (while i believe him) are suspicious, and he admits himself that they are suspicious.
if you feel bad, don't queue for the game, it's that simple. its like saying well i only drank one beer while i was driving, im not drunk, so i shouldnt get punished... ur still drinking and driving...
if he queued and instantly left the game at all he deserves to be punished. no game, and no ONE should be cool with people that quit games. it's against the spirit of the game to play with people that refuse to play the game. i'm ok with him getting blackballed over this, honestly.
idk i feel there is still a real life factor here not being looked at. You know things like the doorbell rings telephone etc (sickness has a ton reasons alone) and to be honest if there is no actual money on the line i'm fine with people leaving ladder games if its not a tournament its still just a "game"
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Why was he even playing EU Ladder if he knew this qualification was going on? Seeing what Major did in the past I can totally see him doing it on purpose to atleast make them lose points and annoy them.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Why was he even playing EU Ladder if he knew this qualification was going on?
Why would you specifically avoid playing the game just because there's a qualification going on?
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On April 13 2016 20:13 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Why was he even playing EU Ladder if he knew this qualification was going on? Why would you specifically avoid playing the game just because there's a qualification going on?
Because you could play on your own ladder with your real account for a start?... I mean it's easy to understand when smurfing and trolling is ok and when it's not... he's not just like you and me, he's a pro, and when you play professionally, you have to behave professionally. Cause never ever in the world you can dismiss the possibility that he quitted a game against a team mate that he would have never left against another guy (say Bly for instance...)
I'm not saying he's guilty or anything, I'm just saying a little bit of wit could have saved him a lot of troubles. I think that's also the message from Blizzard to all pro gamers : "better behave correctly during ladder selection if you don't want to be hit by the shitstorm"
That said, Blizzard not being as idiotic as people on these forums seem to think, I'm sure they're already thinking about possible change for next seasons to avoid this (like Nony's proposition for example)
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On April 13 2016 16:15 Shortizz wrote:
People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum.
How is it giving points when he has a winning record against each player on the same day and took more points from them than they did from him ?
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On April 13 2016 22:42 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 16:15 Shortizz wrote:
People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum. How is it giving points when he has a winning record against each player on the same day and took more points from them than they did from him ?
This keeps coming up from multiple posters so I'm going to conclusively explain it here, at least in regards to his teammate:
1. The wins were BEFORE the two losses. Then when there were 4 hours remaining, he lost 2 matches. This gives credence to the possibility that his teammate messaged him 4 hours before the end of the qualifier and said "please I just need some points man." Major had nothing to lose (or so he thought) as it's not his region's qualifier, so he thought "why not?"
2. Regardless of how many points he won earlier in the day, he still gave points. That is not debatable. As I said in a previous post, even if he took more points than he gave, it does not change the fact that he gave points. Look at it this way:
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
-10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline
+10 points Win 4 hours before deadline (GIVEN FOR FREE BEFORE THE GAME EVEN STARTED)
+10 points Win 4 hours before deadline, immediately after having left during queue, with two back-to-back cheese attempts against a player he beat soundly 6 times in a row that very day
It doesn't matter how many points changed hands. Major is still guilty of giving points for free, at least one time. That is inalienable fact.
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So pro gamer are not allowed to loose any games 4 hours before the end? lol
Especially since none of those players even remotely had a shot at qualifying in the remaining 4 hours even with a big winstreak.
and of course players are gonna cheese when there is not much time left to maximize the number of games.
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On April 14 2016 04:02 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
So pro gamer are not allowed to loose any games 4 hours before the end? lol
Especially since none of those players even remotely had a shot at qualifying in the remaining 4 hours even with a big winstreak.
and of course players are gonna cheese when there is not much time left to maximize the number of games.
I think you have a very poor understanding of the situation. Let me help you out.
1. Major was not going to qualify regardless, because it was Europe server, and he's from the Americas, so cheesing to maximize number of games is not a valid argument.
2. Progamers are allowed to lose games 4 hours before the end, as I'm sure many players in the top 16 of the qualifier have. However, "progamers" should not be allowed to give points by leaving during the countdown timer.
3. The subjective viability of someone qualifying is not relevant to the fact that the crime was committed. He went on EU server, queued against his teammate, then left before countdown timer. This is textbook giving free wins.
4. Did I mention he's been caught cheating before? Ok.
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4th point is irrelevant, whatever he did previously has no impact on what happened in this case. It could however impact how much we trust his explanations
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On April 14 2016 04:07 Jealous wrote:
3. The subjective viability of someone qualifying is not relevant to the fact that the crime was committed. He went on EU server, queued against his teammate, then left before countdown timer. This is textbook giving free wins.
So if the Rank 1 player on the ladder got queued against bronze players somehow, and instantly left, during the countdown timer, you would advocate for his disqualification?
Of course the viability of someone qualifying or not matters.
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On April 14 2016 04:37 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 04:07 Jealous wrote:
3. The subjective viability of someone qualifying is not relevant to the fact that the crime was committed. He went on EU server, queued against his teammate, then left before countdown timer. This is textbook giving free wins. So if the Rank 1 player on the ladder got queued against bronze players somehow, and instantly left, during the countdown timer, you would advocate for his disqualification? Of course the viability of someone qualifying or not matters.
I never advocated for straight up disqualification as a universal measure. Context is important. In previous posts I agreed with others that Blizzard's decision, based on what evidence we have (all provided by Major), was hasty and extreme. I have also said that if a person drops a game today, then gets a phone call next week, and a delivery the week after that, that is understandable. However, Major himself stated that he was dropping games all day and that he knew he was too ill to play normally. I focus more on his decision-making and less on Blizzard's actions in this matter, because Major should have known what he did was not okay. I boiled it down to three possibilities, either he is ignorant and didn't know, he did know but didn't care, or he did it intentionally in the games vs. his teammate, all of which I find unacceptable for a person who has a "progamer" tag on this site and is recognized as such elsewhere.
So, to answer your question more directly, no I don't think that your #1 player should be disqualified, but my decision could easily change based on context, history, and subsequent explanations.
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The problem here seems to be that 'training mode' became genuine competition just by Blizzard saying so!
All the stuff people do on ladder just for fun or at most practice, because the environment was set up exactly that way, was suddenly punished harshly since they are against the 'rules of competition'.
But these rules were never enforced before and are not even defined clearly!
For how long does ladder turn into the genuine real stuff? A week? A day? 4 hours?
And for whom? Top 100? Top 20? Are already qualified player included? And players from other regions?
It's like if FIFA would place an announcement the local papers that they are looking for good youth players in a city. And then expect the neighborhood boys to play to full FIFA rules once they arrive at the local grass playground. Worse, when a player commits a foul he immediately gets a red card and is banned from the game for month, even though the boy has never played with a referee present. And all the time the grass field did not even have proper goal posts and only the boys with certain potential got penalized while most could still play their grass soccer like they have always done (not caring about number of players, changing teams mid-game and pausing for ice cream).
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On April 14 2016 01:28 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 22:42 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:On April 13 2016 16:15 Shortizz wrote:
People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum. How is it giving points when he has a winning record against each player on the same day and took more points from them than they did from him ? This keeps coming up from multiple posters so I'm going to conclusively explain it here, at least in regards to his teammate: 1. The wins were BEFORE the two losses. Then when there were 4 hours remaining, he lost 2 matches. This gives credence to the possibility that his teammate messaged him 4 hours before the end of the qualifier and said "please I just need some points man." Major had nothing to lose (or so he thought) as it's not his region's qualifier, so he thought "why not?" 2. Regardless of how many points he won earlier in the day, he still gave points. That is not debatable. As I said in a previous post, even if he took more points than he gave, it does not change the fact that he gave points. Look at it this way: -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline +10 points Win 4 hours before deadline (GIVEN FOR FREE BEFORE THE GAME EVEN STARTED) +10 points Win 4 hours before deadline, immediately after having left during queue, with two back-to-back cheese attempts against a player he beat soundly 6 times in a row that very day It doesn't matter how many points changed hands. Major is still guilty of giving points for free, at least one time. That is inalienable fact. Consequences dont matter when considering punishments? Thats a new one.
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On April 14 2016 10:23 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 01:28 Jealous wrote:On April 13 2016 22:42 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:On April 13 2016 16:15 Shortizz wrote:
People are really buying his story?
His lame attempts to justify account sharing and leaving a game to gift points? Anyone whose on TL since sc2 launch would know what kind of person this guy is. Perfectly justified ban IMO, hope it stays this way too.
Not that it clouds my judgement on this topic, but i have played this guy a few times on the ladder and he is just a pure scum. How is it giving points when he has a winning record against each player on the same day and took more points from them than they did from him ? This keeps coming up from multiple posters so I'm going to conclusively explain it here, at least in regards to his teammate: 1. The wins were BEFORE the two losses. Then when there were 4 hours remaining, he lost 2 matches. This gives credence to the possibility that his teammate messaged him 4 hours before the end of the qualifier and said "please I just need some points man." Major had nothing to lose (or so he thought) as it's not his region's qualifier, so he thought "why not?" 2. Regardless of how many points he won earlier in the day, he still gave points. That is not debatable. As I said in a previous post, even if he took more points than he gave, it does not change the fact that he gave points. Look at it this way: -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline -10 points Loss somewhere in the 24 hours before deadline +10 points Win 4 hours before deadline (GIVEN FOR FREE BEFORE THE GAME EVEN STARTED) +10 points Win 4 hours before deadline, immediately after having left during queue, with two back-to-back cheese attempts against a player he beat soundly 6 times in a row that very day It doesn't matter how many points changed hands. Major is still guilty of giving points for free, at least one time. That is inalienable fact. Consequences dont matter when considering punishments? Thats a new one.
So if I cheat and lose it isn't deserving of the same punishment? You must root devious behavior out, top to bottom.
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EPT
