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Starting on Page 7, using the phrase, "Welfare Circus Series/System" will result in mod action. It breeds negativity and it's just generally a stupid thing to say. All in all, please stop discussing the WCS system, this thread is about the disqualification. |
On April 12 2016 00:31 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 22:30 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 11 2016 22:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 11 2016 02:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 09 2016 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:I find it kinda curious though that we're allowed to have a whole thread with the assumption of two players exploiting extremely obvious flaws in one of the + Show Spoiler +insert WCS welfare comments, srsly, the thing is retarded WCS qualifications. Their career is more and more screwed every second we allow this discussion without any evidence to run rampant, yet we're somehow okay with this. I'm perfectly fine with discrediting anything WCS/Ban-Korea related, really, but at least do it in an open and fair manner. Accepting Bunny getting an unfair advantage, and not allowing other players to do the same thing sounds hypocritical. Also, you have to accept that this is something bound to happen. Additionally: How do we define wintrading? Would it have been fine in MLord went SCV rush, practicing this special tactic every game? How about blind 3 rax, with DnS knowing it and preparing? Would that have changed the situation? A qualifier this open for abuse and interpretation should not play a role in the most 'prestigious' (HAHAHAHAHA) tournament of SC2. It's ridiculous and honestly very unprofessional. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 14:28 Binomyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 05:49 Ppjack wrote:
So... since we don't have proofs from blizzard, it seems like:
- Shadown leaving a game because he likes bunny = nothing happens
- Bunny receiving a free win, even though he does not ask for it, but profit from it = nothing happens
- Major leaving a game because sick (or any reason one could leave, phone call or whatever) = banned
- Marinelord leaving two games (edit: making less efforts causing 2 loss) because he likes Dns = banned
- Dns profiting from it, and probably asking for it = banned
- Bly convinced of abusing the system (leaving games on purpose to get a better seed) = nothing happens
Blizzard seems clueless. Not even talking about the lack of communication, the situation is handled so poorly by blizzard. MLord didn't quit the game like Shadown did, just a few seconds after start (edit: did not see your edit, but don't agree also with MLord making less effort). Even if Bunny has nothing to do, Blizz should have deduced these 9 points from his score. Bunny would have had a score of 1296 and would still be qualified but that would have seem less that they care only about certain . You can access the game stats via DnS profile and make your own opinion. Here's my analysis of the games. Game 13 min 15s DnS do a 3 gate proxy MLord do a CC 2 zealots and 8 adept vs 7 marines and all of Mlord probes, GG timing Win for DnS +19 points Game 29 min 10s MLord do a 3 barrack proxy DnS do gate, nexus, starport Dns loose the second nexus At 3:01, the production was 9 marines vs 2 adept and 1 oracle (and some probes probably). Meanwhile, DnS to have used his Oracle well as MLord income does not increase. At 3:53, DnS remade his nexus and his earnings will take over MLord's. With a better army value and better upgrade, DnS had an advantage after that first fight. Win for DnS +19 points Game 35 min 32s It seem like a mine drop. DnS seem to have loosed his nexus because he make a second at 5:17 but I can't really discern what the fuck had happened. Loose for DnS, -8 points. If it is wintrade, they don't seem to have choose the more productive way. May be the biggest mistake for MLord was to play with his smurf when the "ladder competition" was not ended (but I haven't seen rules against it). Blizzard? TL Mods? Every second you allow this thread to exist is an insult to the competitive scene. This is without taking WCS  into account. You can have your opinion on WCS, even if you are for it, this thread is hurting the reputation of players without proof, based on PURE suspicions, for now. It's degrading. Pathetic. TL mods, do your job and protect the integrity of this website? Thanks. and ban/warn anybody not agreeing with you? The fact that ML and DnS have been banned is not suspicion, it's a fact, and most post in this thread are trying to discuss and understand what happened without pitchforking anyone. Bunny's case is a hard one, but really banning him too, would have been kind of extreme, no? And I'm sorry, discrediting WCS system is as bad as as discrediting players reputation. And anyway, how giving the actual details on the games is an offense to the players? Please read this post. Your shortsighted comment with the uncreative strawman isn't fooling anyone. You can like WCS, you can hate it. I personally think 2016 WCS is a complete joke and a disgrace to this scene. In fact, I think the phrase 'professional gamer' has been changed from 'compete and be the best like no one ever was'. However, that is completely beside the point. Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 23:06 Incognoto wrote:
You don't get his point.
This is still speculation mostly and without factual evidence (being banned is not evidence, that's the sanction, lol), this is very damaging to the players' reputations without them having a say about it.
He's not asking to ban people who don't agree with him, he's asking that we don't keep slandering / potentially ruining players' career without any factual evidence. The problem with Blizzard is that they most likely have none, so basically players are seeing their careers be damaged very severely over what is so far nothing. These threads contribute to that damage. In fact, every form of 'evidence' in the matchfix case we currently have is more in favor of ML/DnS that against them. The way those games played out is not that unimaginable. Every second this thread remains open just contributes to the 'trial by media' which is now happening and potentially screwing over the careers of two competitors. The fact that the Bunny case remains unspoken off (despite this being a similar form of manipulating ladder. Even if it is apparantly against his wishes, it's manipulation nonetheless), and nobody forsaw this coming, is extremely amateurish. In short: the way this is handled by TL staff, Blizzard and Dreamhack is besides everything you would expect from professional organizations, and it disgusts me.
"shortsighted comment with the uncreative strawman" the f are you talking about?
You are the one making a trial by media, you are the one accusing Blizzard with no evidence, cause actually you have no clue about what they know and what ML and DnS told them. As far as we know they maybe even admitted the facts to blizzard's staff. Yet, you feel allowed to call them amateurish and disgusting.
You go as far as saying that Bunny (whose case has spoken off largely btw) should deserve some kind of action against him, but I suppose that's not trial by media either?
Seriously, you should calm down. DnS and ML have been disqualified, it's a fact and it's ok to have a thread discussing it. Again, you have strong opinions, other people can express theirs too. For instance, the fact that TL.net staff doesn't have the same view than you on moderation doesn't make them "disgusting".
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On April 12 2016 01:02 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 00:31 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 11 2016 22:30 Gwavajuice wrote:On April 11 2016 22:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 11 2016 02:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 09 2016 22:53 SC2Toastie wrote:I find it kinda curious though that we're allowed to have a whole thread with the assumption of two players exploiting extremely obvious flaws in one of the + Show Spoiler +insert WCS welfare comments, srsly, the thing is retarded WCS qualifications. Their career is more and more screwed every second we allow this discussion without any evidence to run rampant, yet we're somehow okay with this. I'm perfectly fine with discrediting anything WCS/Ban-Korea related, really, but at least do it in an open and fair manner. Accepting Bunny getting an unfair advantage, and not allowing other players to do the same thing sounds hypocritical. Also, you have to accept that this is something bound to happen. Additionally: How do we define wintrading? Would it have been fine in MLord went SCV rush, practicing this special tactic every game? How about blind 3 rax, with DnS knowing it and preparing? Would that have changed the situation? A qualifier this open for abuse and interpretation should not play a role in the most 'prestigious' (HAHAHAHAHA) tournament of SC2. It's ridiculous and honestly very unprofessional. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 14:28 Binomyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 05:49 Ppjack wrote:
So... since we don't have proofs from blizzard, it seems like:
- Shadown leaving a game because he likes bunny = nothing happens
- Bunny receiving a free win, even though he does not ask for it, but profit from it = nothing happens
- Major leaving a game because sick (or any reason one could leave, phone call or whatever) = banned
- Marinelord leaving two games (edit: making less efforts causing 2 loss) because he likes Dns = banned
- Dns profiting from it, and probably asking for it = banned
- Bly convinced of abusing the system (leaving games on purpose to get a better seed) = nothing happens
Blizzard seems clueless. Not even talking about the lack of communication, the situation is handled so poorly by blizzard. MLord didn't quit the game like Shadown did, just a few seconds after start (edit: did not see your edit, but don't agree also with MLord making less effort). Even if Bunny has nothing to do, Blizz should have deduced these 9 points from his score. Bunny would have had a score of 1296 and would still be qualified but that would have seem less that they care only about certain . You can access the game stats via DnS profile and make your own opinion. Here's my analysis of the games. Game 13 min 15s DnS do a 3 gate proxy MLord do a CC 2 zealots and 8 adept vs 7 marines and all of Mlord probes, GG timing Win for DnS +19 points Game 29 min 10s MLord do a 3 barrack proxy DnS do gate, nexus, starport Dns loose the second nexus At 3:01, the production was 9 marines vs 2 adept and 1 oracle (and some probes probably). Meanwhile, DnS to have used his Oracle well as MLord income does not increase. At 3:53, DnS remade his nexus and his earnings will take over MLord's. With a better army value and better upgrade, DnS had an advantage after that first fight. Win for DnS +19 points Game 35 min 32s It seem like a mine drop. DnS seem to have loosed his nexus because he make a second at 5:17 but I can't really discern what the fuck had happened. Loose for DnS, -8 points. If it is wintrade, they don't seem to have choose the more productive way. May be the biggest mistake for MLord was to play with his smurf when the "ladder competition" was not ended (but I haven't seen rules against it). Blizzard? TL Mods? Every second you allow this thread to exist is an insult to the competitive scene. This is without taking WCS into account. You can have your opinion on WCS, even if you are for it, this thread is hurting the reputation of players without proof, based on PURE suspicions, for now. It's degrading. Pathetic. TL mods, do your job and protect the integrity of this website? Thanks. and ban/warn anybody not agreeing with you? The fact that ML and DnS have been banned is not suspicion, it's a fact, and most post in this thread are trying to discuss and understand what happened without pitchforking anyone. Bunny's case is a hard one, but really banning him too, would have been kind of extreme, no? And I'm sorry, discrediting WCS system is as bad as as discrediting players reputation. And anyway, how giving the actual details on the games is an offense to the players? Please read this post. Your shortsighted comment with the uncreative strawman isn't fooling anyone. You can like WCS, you can hate it. I personally think 2016 WCS is a complete joke and a disgrace to this scene. In fact, I think the phrase 'professional gamer' has been changed from 'compete and be the best like no one ever was'. However, that is completely beside the point. On April 11 2016 23:06 Incognoto wrote:
You don't get his point.
This is still speculation mostly and without factual evidence (being banned is not evidence, that's the sanction, lol), this is very damaging to the players' reputations without them having a say about it.
He's not asking to ban people who don't agree with him, he's asking that we don't keep slandering / potentially ruining players' career without any factual evidence. The problem with Blizzard is that they most likely have none, so basically players are seeing their careers be damaged very severely over what is so far nothing. These threads contribute to that damage. In fact, every form of 'evidence' in the matchfix case we currently have is more in favor of ML/DnS that against them. The way those games played out is not that unimaginable. Every second this thread remains open just contributes to the 'trial by media' which is now happening and potentially screwing over the careers of two competitors. The fact that the Bunny case remains unspoken off (despite this being a similar form of manipulating ladder. Even if it is apparantly against his wishes, it's manipulation nonetheless), and nobody forsaw this coming, is extremely amateurish. In short: the way this is handled by TL staff, Blizzard and Dreamhack is besides everything you would expect from professional organizations, and it disgusts me. "shortsighted comment with the uncreative strawman" the f are you talking about? You are the one making a trial by media, you are the one accusing Blizzard with no evidence, cause actually you have no clue about what they know and what ML and DnS told them. As far as we know they maybe even admitted the facts to blizzard's staff. Yet, you feel allowed to call them amateurish and disgusting. You go as far as saying that Bunny (whose case has spoken off largely btw) should deserve some kind of action against him, but I suppose that's not trial by media either? Seriously, you should calm down. DnS and ML have been disqualified, it's a fact and it's ok to have a thread discussing it. Again, you have strong opinions, other people can express theirs too. For instance, the fact that TL.net staff doesn't have the same view than you on moderation doesn't make them "disgusting".
Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
As for your point 1: 2 players have been condemned, their names publicly slandered. HOWEVER, we've been given no reason to accept this disciplinary action against two players other than the authority of Blizzard themselves. People looked into the match history, and there is no reason to claim matchfixing from there. If there is evidence, it should at least be made public, so the discussion going on is not just speculation. Like it currently is.
You failed to mention how the whole tournament having ladder based qualifiers is stupid.
Bunny should at least lose those points? And the other player receives a disciplinary action for messing with the standings? In this case, nothing happened, but this situation sets a precedent. IF I claim on bnet that I don't want this free win just before midnight, then I can text the guy to boost me, and it's fine?
This is an argument on principle. Without evidence this thread is slander. And slander belongs on Reddit, not TL.net.
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Mute City2363 Posts
How is this in any way slander? It's a thread based off a statement made by Dreamhack. No accusations have been made by the OP, it's simply reporting the action that DH / Blizzard staff have made.
Whether you agree or disagree with the actions taken, the sheer fact that they were makes this news.
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It has to do with the standard TL (used to) uphold of not being as cancerous as reddit.
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On April 12 2016 04:41 SC2Toastie wrote:
It has to do with the standard TL (used to) uphold of not being as cancerous as reddit.
???
It's the news. It's the posters that have tarnished this thread, not the creation of the thread itself.
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I'm sure the 10 people who watch them will be devastated.
Seriously though this is just a mark of SC2's decline - players will start doing more to 'get their due' or whatever as the money and popularity available declines.
User was warned for this post
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On April 12 2016 10:04 Larkin wrote:
I'm sure the 10 people who watch them will be devastated.
Seriously though this is just a mark of SC2's decline - players will start doing more to 'get their due' or whatever as the money and popularity available declines.
User was warned for this post
This scene is really sad these days.
Bad decision after bad decision.
Sadly I hardly watch sc2 anymore, I get a lot more enjoyment out of watching Heroes.
Good competition, and a fraction of the drama in comparison.
#DustinBroder?
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@ above
Not really relevant to this thread though.
And @2 above
I'm pretty sure foreigners have more opportunities to make money than ever before. I also watched a bit of the matches, but I mostly just watched for the players I liked, and skipped the rest which is pretty normal. I still watch KR StarCraft often though.
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This thread is a trainwreck
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All this mindless Blizzard bashing... Blizzard handled this situation exactly the same way Korean officials handled the match fixing case of Life and the other guys involved. They said what they did and gave us a reason why they did it. In no way do they have to make all the information they have public at this point in time. This is absolutely standard procedure and every responsible authority would do and has done it the absolute same way.
Furthermore i do not think that Blizzard is in any way surprised by these events. I believe they have seen them coming as most other people have foreseen these things. But what do you want them to do? Write a rule for every eventuality? They are dealing with these events as they happen, which is btw. how the American justice system works. There werent laws for everything back in the day. Most of the laws were established only AFTER somebody was caught abusing or cheating. Also all these "haters" should maybe keep in mind that this is the first time they did a qualifier this way. Cut them some slack! They will get it right eventually. If you expect things to be perfect right from the start you are just very naive.
Also i realize how rather childish critics of the WCS system can rejoice because of these events. But first of all, these events have absolutely nothing to do with the region lock, so may i ask you to just keep that discussion out of this thread? And secondly, if you truly enjoy Starcraft and want it to succeed you should be ashamed of yourself if drama like this makes you happy.
PS: Dear SC2Toastie, i´ve seen quite a lot of posts from you over the years and even though i dont always agree with you, you generally post your opinion in a productive, civil and respectful way. I can and do appreciate that. I also understand you do not like the current WCS system. I disagree with your assessment about why it is bad, but anyway, may I ask you to please refrain from being provoked into personal attacks and this general toxicity that flows around any pro-con discussion about the WCS system. It doesnt help, it doesnt achieve anything, it isnt useful. Thank you 
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WCS has indeed nothing to do with the topic at hand; point most people are making is that the way this was handled was not on-point, potentially unfair and very damaging to the players involved. If the allegations are true, then it's fine. If there is a mistake then some players just paid a very dear price for said mistake.
It's a lose-lose situation. The foreigner scene takes a hit if the allegations are true, the players just took a lot of severe damage for nothing if the allegations are false. Neither development is positive for the scene.
Blizzard's complete lack of transparency and solid evidence doesn't really help. It just makes things more confusing for players, fans and tournament organizers. I guess people want to hear more details on this affair to put unease at rest.
Either way, Blizzard is going to get remarks from the community when they mess up: as they should. In the same vein that Blizzard will be congratulated by the community when they do things right: e.g. LOTV is a damn good expansion, both to play and to watch at a high level.
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On April 12 2016 19:03 Incognoto wrote:
WCS has indeed nothing to do with the topic at hand; point most people are making is that the way this was handled was not on-point, potentially unfair and very damaging to the players involved. If the allegations are true, then it's fine. If there is a mistake then some players just paid a very dear price for said mistake.
i disagree with that Incognoto. Like you posted yourself, if the allegations are true, it´s fine. Problem is, people are arguing Blizzard handled this poorly as if the allegations weren't true. But they dont have all the information. The argument that Blizz isnt giving us all the information they might have is flawed since they have no obligation of doing so. Like i already mentioned above if the investigation is still going on it is actually best practice NOT to give out any information (see the match fixing case of Life. All we know so far is that he has been arrested for match fixing). Arguing that banning players should be the punishment and only come after their guilt has been proven is flawed as well. When you are suspected to have killed someone you get arrested even if your guilt hasnt been proven 100% yet. The fact that Blizzard did take such severe action already should, if anything, hint that they have solid prove.
I also dont think it is a lose-lose situation. Given the allegations are true Blizzard clearly shows they are indeed enforcing the rules and are willing to punish cheating players quite severely. The argument they handled the Bly situation differently is again flawed. It was a different situation that simply can not be compared to this situation.
I absolutely agree that Blizzard should get remarks for what they do, good and bad. But in this case i think most critics are simply jumping the gun.
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On April 12 2016 21:28 looken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 19:03 Incognoto wrote:
WCS has indeed nothing to do with the topic at hand; point most people are making is that the way this was handled was not on-point, potentially unfair and very damaging to the players involved. If the allegations are true, then it's fine. If there is a mistake then some players just paid a very dear price for said mistake. i disagree with that Incognoto. Like you posted yourself, if the allegations are true, it´s fine. Problem is, people are arguing Blizzard handled this poorly as if the allegations weren't true. But they dont have all the information. The argument that Blizz isnt giving us all the information they might have is flawed since they have no obligation of doing so. Like i already mentioned above if the investigation is still going on it is actually best practice NOT to give out any information (see the match fixing case of Life. All we know so far is that he has been arrested for match fixing). Arguing that banning players should be the punishment and only come after their guilt has been proven is flawed as well. When you are suspected to have killed someone you get arrested even if your guilt hasnt been proven 100% yet. The fact that Blizzard did take such severe action already should, if anything, hint that they have solid prove. I also dont think it is a lose-lose situation. Given the allegations are true Blizzard clearly shows they are indeed enforcing the rules and are willing to punish cheating players quite severely. The argument they handled the Bly situation differently is again flawed. It was a different situation that simply can not be compared to this situation. I absolutely agree that Blizzard should get remarks for what they do, good and bad. But in this case i think most critics are simply jumping the gun.
No sane person is claiming Blizzard has an obligation to share their information/evidence/reasoning - after all Blizzard is judge jury and executioner in this case. What some (of us) wish for is transparency for all parties' sake. Community has a chance to make sure Blizzard is acting professionally - Blizzard gets to showcase their professionalism (assuming they made no errors on their part) - players get a chance of due process. I don't think anyone's interested in Blizzard rushing things, not investigating throughly - but at least they should issue a statement about their accusations/confidence in evidence/planned course of action/how much time they estimate a proper investigation will take before they'll be able to make a full statement etc
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On April 12 2016 21:28 looken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 19:03 Incognoto wrote:
WCS has indeed nothing to do with the topic at hand; point most people are making is that the way this was handled was not on-point, potentially unfair and very damaging to the players involved. If the allegations are true, then it's fine. If there is a mistake then some players just paid a very dear price for said mistake. i disagree with that Incognoto. Like you posted yourself, if the allegations are true, it´s fine. Problem is, people are arguing Blizzard handled this poorly as if the allegations weren't true. But they dont have all the information. The argument that Blizz isnt giving us all the information they might have is flawed since they have no obligation of doing so. Like i already mentioned above if the investigation is still going on it is actually best practice NOT to give out any information (see the match fixing case of Life. All we know so far is that he has been arrested for match fixing). Arguing that banning players should be the punishment and only come after their guilt has been proven is flawed as well. When you are suspected to have killed someone you get arrested even if your guilt hasnt been proven 100% yet. The fact that Blizzard did take such severe action already should, if anything, hint that they have solid prove. I also dont think it is a lose-lose situation. Given the allegations are true Blizzard clearly shows they are indeed enforcing the rules and are willing to punish cheating players quite severely. The argument they handled the Bly situation differently is again flawed. It was a different situation that simply can not be compared to this situation.
A fair enough assessment, though I am still just not very sure that players are receiving fair treatment on the grounds that it's probably not possible to enforce these rules in a fair way: mixing up the ladder which is supposed to be informal practice with a tournament qualifier which is supposed to be formal. I think the players are paying the price of Blizzard's mistakes (them being short-sighed as to the limitations of a ladder qualifier) and it is probably done so unfairly. Hence the criticism. The situation is murky at best and Blizzard's lack of transparency does nothing to help.
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Like i already said, i dont think there is a lack of transparency. from my point of view the community is just really impatient. I can understand that given the problem though, i would like to know the full story myself, i just dont think there is much Blizzard can do about it. What you express DonDomingo would result in a statement with lots of words yet very little substance. I can only speculate, but i dont think it would satisfy anybody. Now i will agree to a lack of transparency should no statement come within a couple of days.
I think someone mentioned earlier that mixing the ladder with a tournament qualifier was made with best intentions, we just hit a couple of bumps. Personally i believe the idea of making the ladder more competitive to be very good and i think the pro feedback was that it was crazy good practice for some time. But the situation was new for everybody. I dont think stuff like "leaving a game to get medicine 4 hrs before the deadline" will be made should that system continue. and given the severe punishment i´d assume nobody will cheat (so obviously) anymore.
PS: Thank you guys for the discussion, this was (is) fun and very refreshing
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Let's be productive for a second. Imho, making a qualifier based on the ladder is a very cool idea, it gives purpose to it and most pros agree that it's a fun race. Still, it's a bit to extreme to do just one measurment point a one time, and qualify the top players at that instant. Maybe it would be more accurate to do it over the span of a week ? like every 12/24 hours, the positions are saved, and give you points, which are added over the span of a week. Or just taking the average position of the players over the week.
The point is, you make it an endurance race, and not a sprint, which ends up with people so close to each other that you're not even sure is the position are really relevant. and it's harder to cheat without getting caught in a long time span too :p
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Who are these guys..? What is WCS?
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On April 13 2016 01:00 oGoZenob wrote:
Let's be productive for a second. Imho, making a qualifier based on the ladder is a very cool idea, it gives purpose to it and most pros agree that it's a fun race. Still, it's a bit to extreme to do just one measurment point a one time, and qualify the top players at that instant. Maybe it would be more accurate to do it over the span of a week ? like every 12/24 hours, the positions are saved, and give you points, which are added over the span of a week. Or just taking the average position of the players over the week.
The point is, you make it an endurance race, and not a sprint, which ends up with people so close to each other that you're not even sure is the position are really relevant. and it's harder to cheat without getting caught in a long time span too :p
Lets be honest, its probably poorly thought out.
Maybe the ladder thingy was simply too rushed ?
Or maybe we should accept that a ladder qualifier will have to hit some bumps along the road till its polished?
Its something not perfect, but its all we have got, so lets try the best of it.
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On April 13 2016 01:09 Boanerges wrote:
Who are these guys..? What is WCS?
They are two irrelevant foreigners and WCS (World Championship Series) is the Blizzard sponsored program that helps players such as those live out their dreams of being mediore at a video game - erh I MEAN: they are two very talented promising players from France and WCS is a league just like SSL or GSL just for Europeans.
+ Show Spoiler +please dont murder me and my loved ones! It was just a joke i couldnt resist making - my hearth knows no malice!
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France12762 Posts
On April 13 2016 07:08 DonDomingo wrote:They are two irrelevant foreigners and Welfare Circus System (WCS for short) is the Blizzard sponsored program that helps players such as those live out their dreams of being mediore at a video game - erh I MEAN: they are two very talented promising players from France and WCS is a league just like SSL or GSL just for Europeans. + Show Spoiler +please dont murder me and my loved ones! It was just a joke i couldnt resist making - my hearth knows no malice!
Isn't France the best nation tho? )))
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