I've always been interested in the potential of SC2 custom games to augment the vanilla SC2 experience through practice tools and trainers and I have released a new way that this might be done. By linking online guides with ingame trainers via the new(ish) Bnet links we can help bridge the disconnect between theory and practice.
I have included three examples below (one for each race) to demonstrate what I mean. I hope other people will also see the potential to get people off their web browsers and out into the koprulu sector.
Here are three examples of how these can be merged.
INSTRUCTIONS:
open your battlenet launcher
log into starcraft 2
Read a guide to make sure you understand the theory presented
click on the link for your region and start the game
If you wish to attempt it multiple times click the reload option in the ingame menu to go back to the begining.
EDIT: I structured these guides as my concept for how future authors might like to present an SC2 guide, with the links being an organic part of the full writeup, not just as the main drawcard. But for the sake of this showcase they should probably be less subtle. Do read the actual article before jumping into the game though, this is about supplimenting online guides not trying to replace them. They need the writeup to give them context. Here is a link to each build order placed at the top here for visibility:
The build orders presented here are not my origional work but slightly modified posts by others. Credit for the guides themselves belongs to the origional authors which I will link in each post.
It's finally time! I've had a lot of people asking for a guide to a safe and solid opening in ZvZ and I've figured it's finally time to throw it up. It might be a little rough at first as it's mostly just a copy paste of my own notes and I often ignore details I take as assumed knowledge. However I plan to edit and add to the OP as people ask questions and hopefully within a few days to a week of it being posted it's super fleshed out.
Opening
17 hatch 17 pool 16 gas
@100gas ling speed
@50gas baneling nest
3rd queen immediately from main, main queen walks to natural
@50% bane nest - 4-6 safety lings
40-44 3rd base
46-50 4th queen (or spine)
@3rd base at 8 drones OR if 3rd base not finished, 2nd base on 24 drones- drop 2xgas, roach warren, evo and Lair. (You CAN go for Lair earlier @18 drones on your natural, earlier overseer for scouting)
4th gas soon after.
@3rd base saturation add 5th and 6th gases
ALTERNATELY for muta play off this opening go for a 3:45 Lair, add 3xgas @2-base saturation and play it out as you normally would with mutas just with the nice safe fast 3rd base
Midgame Notes:
ovie speed every game
set up pairs of ovies on each side of his base ready to make dropships - load these up and use them like terran drop harass to pull your opponent apart while threatening the front.
set your overlords to patrol to dodge ravager bile
4xravager squad as early as safely possible and start sniping overlords.
Speed up the 4th and maybe 5th gas when you’re ahead for faster ovie speed and ravager squad
OR you can just commit to a huge roachspeed attack with only a few ravagers off 55 drones, 5xgas when ahead (best on short rush distance)
The more pressure you put on and the more you multiprong, the easier it is because you don’t need to defend at the same time
Once they have opportunities to use burrow roaches or roach drops/runbys you need at least 1 spine per base and you need to constantly replace ovies on the map and be ready to respond to counters.
Ideally you keep them on their side of the map and dictate the pace of the game
Resources
The Evo chamber episode where I show a very rough version of the build and talk about many key points in defending efficiently. This is the third replay in the series which the interactive BO was based on and a good example of it being carried out. For important details about things like defending an all in and surviving the ling/bane stage do go back and watch the start of this video.
Example of opening into Mutas in passive game (sorry for the audio being muted due to copyright):
This build order guide follows the replay against Scarlet in the above video.
FAQ:
How to Defend 13/12 or 14/14 1-base ling-bane attacks? + Show Spoiler +
It's discussed in the video. Bane nest before ling speed if you see it in time, spine in mineral line, 2nd queen asap. Hold position micro and sim city to block off your mineral line, split drones if need be but better to just lock them out of your line while queen/spine does work. Retake natural asap and you're even, ahead or slightly behind depending how well you micro
I skip the bane nest every game and instead build a roach warren @50 gas... have you tried this? What do you think of it? Should Banes kill me? + Show Spoiler +
I think you should get behind on many maps but it won't lose you the game. On dusk towers and Orbital shipyard where there's only 1 area to defend you can get away with this. On other maps, and even on these ones to some extent, the issue is that roaches are slow to build, slow-moving units. So if you see 20 lings coming across the map if you have just 2-banes you know you can buy time and stop them getting up your ramp until your reactive 10-14 lings are out. But with roaches you NEED to have ~5 or so roaches out by the time they hit or everything can fall apart very quickly. So you have to commit earlier to more defence just incase there's aggression, so if you're opponents greedy they get ahead. Also you can't then pressure with this overcommittal of units to force units out of your opponent due to how slow they are, whereas ling-bane can always dart across a big map and force a big response or do big damage.
Your style is good on super close spawns on central protocol/lerilak etc because you can walk out with slow roaches to force a reaction, and just walk home without committing. On a huge distance no-one gives a shit about seeing a few slow roaches walking towards them, but on close spawns that shit forces a big reaction. I'm a big fan of doing it on these spawns.
I've always wanted to try roach builds, but i just don't know how to deal with mutas when going for roach. so how exactly do you deal with mutas? + Show Spoiler +
Drone up hard focusing on minerals and delaying extra gas. Go spores as late as safely possible, 2-3 extra queens. As you hit 3-base saturation drop your missing gases and hydra den + infestation pit. Go Hive and roach hydra. Vipers for fighting mass muta or lurker or roach hydra transitions. Roach-hydra timing to hit before Hive kicks in if they're teching fast off just lingbanemuta.
If you see an extremely fast third hatch from the opponent zerg. Would you recommend going for a ling bane all in, or just taking your third earlier and trying to compete with there economy? + Show Spoiler +
Change absolutely nothing your early droning will be more efficient and you'll end up at most slightly behind in the midgame. The more you refine the opening the more you can ignore greed from them as you're so efficient.
Would you go 28-32 hatch if you want to go ling bane aggressive first? I like dropping the earlier hatch for the larva, I feel like I have so many more options and I'm slightly ahead vs if they go later third. + Show Spoiler +
If you want to do a lingbane attack then yeah the extra larva is super useful, but then you get stuck in a much more fast-paced game where it's very hard to have the same sort of reliable, safe and exact transition. However if you're defending with this build even vs an all-in you only need to build a fraction of their lingbane due to your early anchor making you incredibly efficient. You can just add a spine and a good round of extra lingbane to absorb endless waves.
With this hatchery timing your early droning is smoother and you saturate 2-bases much faster whilst being 100% safe so you're not behind. But it doesn't lend itself to early aggression as much
how do you properly deal with earlier, more all-in 2base Roach timings, like those 10-16~ Roaches with mass Speedling and sometimes banes? Would you cancel your third and just mass ling-bane-spine? + Show Spoiler +
For big roach-bane timings you've gotta play a bit different on like ulrena and close spawn lerilak etc and maybe delay the evo or lair or whatever while scouting harder (or hitting your own big timing). Generally just ling scouts and ovie pokes on mineral lines to try and see what they're up to. Early warning makes it easy as you just prioritize roaches and slow down tech/droning to have a defendable lead.
Those timings hit quite late so you can easily defend the 3rd and have your own roaches out unless they've massed units off like 20 drones. In which case its super easy to scout because they have no drones on the natural.
Introduction Seeing all the protoss players on twitter, reddit, here struggling and complaining about PvZ was making me really sad. I can see and understand why protoss were struggling, but personally I had been having a great time in the matchup. Therefore I thought I would write a guide on my style and provide a link to an ingame guide to coach you through the steps. The link to the ingame guide can be found at the end of this guide.
For people that don't know me, my ID is Probe and I am an Australian Protoss player for Ecko Esports. I was just at dreamhack and choked a few times. I am a GM Protoss and PvZ has always been my best matchup. Before you criticise the build, please try it out! I hope you will be plesantly surprised. Since I started doing this style, it has changed a lot. So if anyone does it slightly differently and thinks it is better please write it below. I am always looking to improve it.
The basic goal of this build is to use a chargelot immortal based army off a phoenix opener to secure 4 bases safely. Opening phoenix might be considered old fashion, but because of the strength of mutalisk switches, especially against zealots and immortals, phoenix stop zerg from building them, meaning you can focus on just dealing with ground.
The 8 damage charge buff is huge, and ever since it was added I have been doing this general sort of build to great success. People may doubt me when I say that chargelot immortal can deal with lurkers, but with a bit of splitting and focus fire with the immortals, lurkers melt. Skipping disruptors also means that the zergs ultralisk transistion is weaker, as you already have the immortals ready.
Early Game Build Order The goal of the early game is to safely get phoenix off 2 bases, before taking a third around 4:30. At this point a robo and twilight is added to move into the midgame. I have included 3 opening builds. First opening is Gate Nexus, which is safe against everything. However, nexus first is almost 100% safe as well so I have included the standard nexus first into 2 gate adept, and nexus first into gate forge(my personal favourite at the moment).
Stargate (5 phoenix) @3:40 Forge (if not added already) @4:00 Double Gas (3:30 for gate forge opener) Warp in for total of 2 adepts 2 sentries Move down to take nexus and add twilight and robo immediately
Mid Game Build Order At this point in the game, you third base should be finishing, twilight and robo both on the way.
Get Charge and +2 attack 2 immortals -> observer -> constant immortal production Start to add a pylon wall at your third base for overcharge against timings Go up to 7 gates quickly Stop at 16 probes on the third, don't take gas there. Warp in Zealots and immortals constantly. Feel free to add adepts and their ugprade after charge. Add Templer archives for archons and a 4th base This is a really quick 4th base, and the reason for this is because your main will start to mine out really quickly and you need a strong economy to overwhelm your opponent. Go up to 12-16 Gateways and add gases at third and fourth. Add second robo/bay and stargates depending on what you see. Against lair tech zerg -> disruptors. Against hive tech zerg -> immortals/safety stargates
Reactions Dealing with Roach Ravager: Immortals obviously do well against roaches, and chargelots will be able to trade against this army composistion if they don't get kited forever. You might have to be a bit defensive behind pylon walls until you get 4-5 immortals, but once you reach that point chargelot immortal archon handles this composistion easily. If you are still struggling adding some adepts can provide the tankiness that your army needs to get the critical mass of chargelot immortal.
Dealing with Ling Hydra: This can hit before you get enough chargelots to deal with it effectively. Therefore, I build 10 adepts and then going into chargelots. Adepts obviously do really well against ling hydra, so with this small deviation you should be able be aggressive on the map.
Dealing with Roach Ravager Hydra: This is similiar to dealing with roach ravager, but if they clump up into a ball, your chargelots are going to melt. Defensively this should not be a problem as with good forcefields and pylon positioning you can defend fine. However, once they are maxed, you will not be able to kill them and they will take the map away from you. In this situation I add a second robo and robo bay for disruptors. After 4 disruptors I go back into Immortals and you are fine.
Dealing with Ling Ravager Muta: This style showcased by solar is extremely good. They try to distract you and then fly in with mutalisk to win the game. However, this style works a lot better against stalker/disruptors than this. Chargelot immortal obviously destroys ling ravager if you decide to attack, and you have phoenix and a stargate ready to deal with the mutalisk. Stay on top of your scouting and if you suspect this, feel free to build some more phoenix and add some stalkers into your main army. Some signs that this is coming is obviously a spire, but also a lack of hive means that you need to extra careful and defensive. Being defensive against no hive is fine, as your army will end up being stronger than the zergs.
Dealing with Lurkers: Chargelots and immortals do surprisingly well against lurkers. Continue with your build but you have to be very careful with your army movement. DO NOT engage into lurkers that are being defensive. You will simply die. However, if they are in the middle of the map, make an arc, attack move your composistion and then focus fire them down with immortals. Once you break the lurker line once, you have full control of the map and can continue to expand and tech up to double robo/triple stargate. As a general rule, if they are being very defensive with mass lurker and teching to hive, or are staying on lair tech, you need to add disruptors. Including warp prism drops in the main also works wonders as you have the more mobile comp that can deny bases forever.
Dealing with Mutalisk in general: You already have 5 phoenix that deter that zerg from building mutalisk, but they might still do it. Stay on top of your scouting with hallucinations and once you scout it, add stargates, phoenix and a fleet beacon for phoenix range. Pylon Overcharge can secure one base, so have your phoenix defending 2 bases, mcore defending one, and your main army defending the front.
Dealing with Baneling composistions: Banelings obviously hard counter zealots and adepts. But, they suck against archon immortal. Do not commit to an engagement. Use warp prisms and recall to deny bases without taking a fight as you slowly add archons and more immortals into your army. When you do decide to fight, a bit of splitting goes a long way!
Dealing with Upgraded Lings -> Infestor Ultralisk: I believe this is one of the stronger unit composistions from Zerg. Infestors can fungal your zealots and make you extremely sad as ultralisk cleave their way to victory. You have to be extremely careful against this unit comp, and when you want to fight, make sure you are split so that all your zealots don't get fungaled and die. Adding a second robo for more immortals whilst adding archons will make your lategame army as good as his, and with good focus fire with immortals, you should be fine.
Dealing with Broodlords Simply put, have safety stargates so that when you scout them, you can begin immediate tempest production. Try and delay as long as you can by counter attacking. Your army is more mobile and you can use this to deny bases and just recall away when he gets there. Immortal Archon Tempest can then effectively deal with Broodlord/ultralisk comps.
Transitions: Your lategame ideal army is Immortal Archon. This will completely destroy any zerg ground force. Have 3-5 stargates and fleet beacon ready incase they muta switch or Broodlord switch. Counter attack with warp prisms and trade off your zealots trying to deny bases as you add more immortals, archons and expansions. In the super lategame against broodlord viper corruptor, add storm so the corruptors don't dominate your tempest.
Execution
Early Game Defense: The key to defending early game attacks is firstly scouting. With your initial scout see if zerg has a third base and taken gas. If they have no third base, hide your probe out on the map to check the third base around 3 minutes. If they don't have a third at this time, they are doing a 2 base build and you need to react. You can also sac the adepts if you have no information in order to see what is coming.
I often build a stalker in order to push back any droplords that might be around, as well as to deny scouting. If it is a frontal attack, add pylons at your natural and just build gateway units off 3 gates. If you need a void ray build one. Oracles also kill ravagers really quickly so they can also be built. Any later drops you will have phoenix that can deny them.
Phoenix use: Your first 2 phoenix are used to kill the overlords around your base, as well as on the map. When you get your third phoenix, move across the map and scout what the zerg is doing, as well as kill a few drones or queens if you are lucky. Once you have 5 phoenix, you can pretty much always get drone kills off the gas if you have enough apm to multitask this. If you can get no damage anymore, or you would rather focus on your main army, pull them back to your base to deny any drops and to defend muta switches.
Pylon walls: If you struggle to hold your third base, ask yourself this question. Did I build enough pylons? If the answer is no, build more pylons. If the answer is yes, make sure you are getting 7 gates very quickly. I often forget to get the gateways and slowly die to a sustained push, even if I have enough pylons. 3 gateways is not enough for this build, you need 7+. As for pylon placement, try to spread them out to cover all attack points into your base. Also don't bunch them together as ravagers deal even better with them and they will block your chargelots.
Chargelot micro: Pretty simple micro, but against ranged units you need to control click your zealots and pull them back if they get too far away from the immortals.
Forming an Arc:This is the MOST IMPORTANT part of this build when dealing with lurkers and other AOE units. Just remember, before you engage, pull your units into 3-4 groups and then a move behind the units. Against lurkers, continue to split as you go forward to lessen the damage.
In game guide
Now that you understand the theory of this play style it's time to put it into practice so that when the time comes to use it you will have the practice to back it up. Log into your battlenet client and open SC2 and then click on the appropriate link below:
Description This series shows the strength of this style against one of the best lotv players. I couldn't seal the deal in the series because he is better than me, not because of the build. Only the replay for Game 2 is there, but the whole series was casted as well.
*Edit: I did NOT create these build orders or this build guide. It is copy pasted from an excellent guide made by Jakamakala from this post here and credit belongs squarely on his shoulders. I did a small amount of "trimming" on the article and inserted links which lead to training maps for the build.
This is merely for demonstration purposes to explore the use of links to training maps within a TeamLiquid build order guide.
Thanks, Turtles.
Image by VitoSs
Intro: Hello, I am Jakamakala, an infamous mid GM Terran (currently hovering around rank 40-70, but GM league is fucked up right now) who is known for his don't-give-a-shit attitude, carefree BM, and sometimes unique Clan Tags in game. This is a quick and short guide on my playstyle in TvP in low GM LoTV. It should help to get some people's feet off the ground if they are lost in the MU but do not consider it the authority on the MU.
I don't by any means consider TvP to be anywhere near balanced right now. I believe the combination of adepts and PO allow Protoss to be excessively greedy due to pylons' potency and adepts early game efficiency, and I believe there is no "standard macro build" that puts Terran in any decent position. Unlike HoTS, where Terran expanded faster and generally had more army supply of weaker units than Protoss, in LoTV, Protoss expands more quickly and generally has more quality units by the mid game (you may thank the early thirds, adepts, and disruptors). Terran has new tools in LoTV that allow them to fight Protoss in the late game with Liberators, however, this only works out if Terran can survive to the late game without losing all their workers or outright dying. Every game has an early game.
TvP in HoTS often saw Terran on the aggression, with plenty of tools to gnaw away at Protoss while Terran then decides to end the game with a powerful SCV pull or chooses to mass up dropships and go ham on the Protoss' expansions. LoTV sees Protoss with map control and more viable harass with ranged warp prisms, lowered opportunity cost for things like oracles, disruptor drops, and easy defense with spammable 30 damage Pylon Overcharges.
What does this mean? It means what I said before. I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
What does this mean???? It means we shake things up and use styles that allow you to take the initiative!!!
Camera Hotkeys: This is Legacy of the Void, and you are a Terran player, a member of the official Hardest Race. If you are not using camera hotkeys, you are going to suffer 4 fold. This expansion is faster paced, with more expanding, harassment, and counter harassment than ever. You need to be able to zoom to each base accurately and quickly at the touch of a key every time you do macro management. What do you think this is, HoTS Protoss?
Hotkeys: The same applies to hotkey management. If you are still relying on a select all army hotkey and are not responsibly rallying your forces, consider upping your mechanics before playing LoTV TvP. What do you think this is, HoTS Protoss?
The build orders:
There are two different "ladder builds" I currently use for TvP. I have a macro build I used to use as well, but I don't believe it is very strong.
Don't be intimidated trying to remember every step at once. Both build orders have a link to training maps designed to help you follow through with the plan. Read this guide to understand the ideas and goals behind the plan, load up SC2 and then click on the links to practice following through. Clicking on the link will place you in a map specifically designed to guide you through these build orders step-by-step. For the links to work you maust already have Starcraft AND the battlenet launcher open.
These maps are powered by SALT, a tool which allows one to save and load the game to be able to reherse a single aspect of play until it becomes second nature in a method called deliberate practice. There are many articles out there describing how best to practice a skill, but for a short primer try the wikipedia article for "practice".
It's back baby. The dreaded build from Wings of Liberty, the TvP 1/1/1. The Wings 1/1/1 utilized a combination of Raven, Banshee, Marines and Tanks in order to punish a Protoss who tries to play a standard game with a standard expansion timing by chipping away at them while having a beefy high DPS buffer.
In LoTV, the zoning power of the 1/1/1 has only gotten stronger, and is probably the one thing I think is actually "strong" in TvP. It's extremely map dependent however, and I reserve the build specifically for Ulrena and sometimes prion terraces.
The build:
- 13 depot - 16 barracks - 16 gas - 17 gas - @100% barracks, reactor - @100 gas, factory - @100% factory, tech lab and Starport
Money is very tight with the build, so mind your double queueing of marines and scvs as you throw down your depots on time.
Cut SCVs around 24-25 (22 is maximum 1 base saturation).
Once your factory has a tech lab, start your first siege tank. Once the Starport finishes, start a Liberator.
DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!! DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!! DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!! DO NOT STOP MARINE PRODUCTION!!!
Once you have 8 marines and your first tank, move out, with the tank leading the way and minding any lingering adepts. Your opponent should know something is up by your lack of a natural.
The infrastructure set up by 3 minutes.
Move right across the map (especially easy on Ulrena) and start setting up at the bottom of their natural ramp. Pull 2-3 SCVs for repairs and making turrets/bunkers. Turrets will give you air dominance, and bunkers are well rounded for holding your position.
The Liberator doubles as a heavy duty zoning unit and a ramp spotter as your tank kills the pylons.
The attack only becomes more deadly as a second tank and Liberator show up, and it's almost lights out once the third tank and Liberator show up. You may start to have excess minerals as the attack drags, so don't be afraid to back up your attack with a natural CC.
2-3 SCVs give your push heavy duty trenching and on demand repairs.
Make sure you understand the broad strokes of this build order. Go back and skim through it if you need to. Got it? good, now try running through the steps yourself.
First of all open Starcraft 2 on your computer. Second, click this link and see if you can keep up. Don't worry, you will be guided through each step as it becomes relevant.
This style is more advanced and requires being able to multitask. It focuses on knocking the Protoss off balance early, discouraging them from doing cheese and instead focusing on defending and being greedy after successfully defending, before hitting them with a sharp aggressive timing parade.
This style is not without its weaknesses:
- Soft usage of DTs that burn out your scans and wear down your forces - Players who are good at intercepting stray units with blink or Phoenix - A combination of mis micro on your end and superb defense from their's
The opener: - 12 SCV - @5-7 seconds, take an SCV off the line and move it towards a proper proxy location. I like to do this build on Orbital Shipyard and Dusk Towers, and generally proxy like so:
- 16 rax - 16 gas - 17 gas (with next 75 minerals, no cutting SCVs)
- While your first reaper is queued up, start your factory at home @ 100 gas - Start 2nd reaper @50 gas - At @100% 2nd reaper, lift your barracks and take it home; Land the barracks on the tech lab from the factory (the factory will be done making the cyclone by then)
Your first reaper will arrive in the Protoss base a good 10-15 seconds before they are generally ready for it. A scouting probe might hint them that something is up from the double gas but lack of barracks, but there's nothing Protoss can really do from this point to accelerate their defenses, as they generally open Gate - > Gas - > Nexus - > Core while getting the MsC out just in time to stop an in base reaper FE.
- Use your grenades and focus down as many probes as you can. Even Mid GMs lose 2-3 initial probes, and sometimes have to pull for a little bit. Worse players I've faced have lost upwards of 7-8 probes total.
- Pull your first reaper back when the MsC is done and beware of pylons. With the next 2 reapers I tend to either split them up to split the MsC attention, or bring them to the natural of the Protoss and focus down all the natural probes before attempting to get at least 1 reaper out of there (I generally get 1 out).
The reaper arrives in the Protoss base well before good defenses are ready.
With good control, even NA's top can't help losing 5 probes with reapers escaping.
While the reapers are harassing, note your multi tasking with depots and infrastructure: - at 100% Factory, throw down a tech lab and your Starport - at 100% Tech Lab, start a cyclone. It finishes quickly enough that you are safe from Proxy Oracles, any adepts that counter push across the map, proxy PO, or MsC harass - You will start to float money here, so as your Starport is building, start your natural expansion around 3:20 - at 100% Starport, start your first Liberator
This first Liberator can be used to harass or defend, depending on what your opponent is doing. My reapers sometimes see many gates dropping for retaliation, and a fat depot wall, the cyclone, and a liberator can quickly discourage most ground attacks.
If the Protoss is trying to regreed up, use the Liberator to soft harass one of their mineral lines, minding Pylon placement while you macro up.
Start 2 more barracks and an engineering bay for +1 attack. Land your barracks on the Factory's tech lab and start stim, followed up by Combat Shields and Concussive Shells. Start 2 gases at your natural when you have about 12-14 SCVs there. Do not forget non stop production. Cut SCVs when you hit 44.
The next part of the build is not set in stone, but I generally follow it the same way each time I do it. I use the factory to make a reactor for my starport, then a reactor for itself. I eventually add barracks 4 and 5, and I cut Medivacs around 3-4. From there it is pure Bio Mine Liberator Production.
Good, organized, and timely infrastructure to fuel your aggression.
Once you have a decent bio count, move out with the Mines, Bio, Liberators, making sure your mineral lines are safe from Oracle Harass and the like and use the cyclone to lead the charge, scouting on ahead.
This push out happens as early as 6:30-7:00, with the cyclone leading the way.
Most Protoss opponents are trying to greed up their economy before a production explosion. This combined with your cheesy harass can give you a solid army advantage-based timing to punish and end the Protoss. There are a few ways you can take out the pylons.
1) Cyclone lock on and pick away one by one. 2) Siege Tank (I have had games where I made a siege tank after the cyclone to counter heavy adepts) 3) Push in with 6-8 stimmed rauders and beat down a pylon quickly before the MsC can spam PO. Rinse and repeat after healing.
Set up your position in a fashion where your Liberators compromise important ground for the Protoss and mines cover the zones under the Libs so charge ins by high numbers of stalkers, adepts, or phoenix are heavy punished.
Good coverage with your zoning units gives you a strong staging ground to push from.
This Protoss took a 4:10 third, but his army is not well rounded yet. The Phoenix have no use in this uncomfortable situation.
From here you work your way forward and kill the Protoss third, before slowly leapfrogging Liberators, Mines, and Bio positioning up their ramp.
It's up to you whether to commit or not or play the hard contain game. I've chipped away at the Protoss infrastructure using zoning units until Protoss engages into my entrenched position and loses, and I've also lifted my main to my third (or even built a brand new CC) to sustain my income while Protoss's main is mined out and their third destroyed.
Following so far? OK, That's enough theory. Time to put it into practice. Follow this link to be guided through the process in a more hands on way. Remember to save anywhere you struggle with so you can isolate and work on it.
Make sure to have SC2 and the Bnet launcher open already for this link to work.
All-Ins - The 1/1/1 is an all in of your own, and so the unit can be used to counter an all in from Protoss, especially given the defensive capabilities of Tanks and Liberators. I have yet to face a Protoss who goes one base all in vs 1/1/1, but I imagine it would go well for me and I'd take an in base natural behind it.
- The proxy reaper into 2 base push is the same deal. Use your fast infrastructure to deflect 2 base aggression from Protoss. Utilize your Liberators and Cyclones to rid pesky warp prisms from your base and don't be afraid to turret your mineral lines.
Obvious Tips: - Sometimes playing the proxy reaper style can actually just turn into a standard macro game, except you've eliminated most possibility of Protoss cheesing or all inning you and putting the game in a more comfortable position. Just turtle up while minding your upgrades and move out once Protoss takes their fourth (a more easily attacked position than a third or nat). Aim for a late game Bio army with 8-10 Liberators and some mines. Mind if the Protoss has any Stargates, as Tempests are the correct response to Liberators, and will require a Raven or Viking response.
- If playing the game with the original intent to go for the throat, mind mobile units like Stalkers, Oracles, or Phoenix that attempt to cut off your parade
- Be very careful of DT's, as they can ruin your day if you aren't ready to scan them and put you on a timer.
- I sometimes do a double mine drop while harassing with the Liberator if I know there's no Stargate tech. I am conservative with the drop and try to make sure I get the 2 mines out so I may re use them.
- Mind your zoning units. Keep enough support under them so they can't be sniped by Blink Stalkers, but also be mindful enough to spread units so that players who manage to get disruptors or storm out can't just end you by killing the core ground army.
- DO NOT be afraid to take the proxy reaper style into a third CC instead of rax 4 and 5 and play a macro game. Protoss who are intelligent or even just lucky may catch you off guard with counter attacks with the ridiculous OP Warp Prism and its adept warp ins. You do NOT HAVE to go 2 base hard core aggression.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6274090 In short, my macro TvP is something I rarely do anymore, but it revolves around playing really safe with a 1/1/1 Cyclone and Raven into 3 rax 3rd CC, hunting WPs, 4th and 5th rax, and a PDD timing attack at the Protoss third at 8 minutes before going into late game Bio + Liberator. I don't prefer doing this.
If you are creating your own build order writup I have made a step by step guide for creating an interactive build order guide for yourself. Also a video going through the steps myself in case anyone gets confused.
The build order can be encoded by just filling out the details in this spreadsheet and following a few simple instructions in the SC2 editor to transform it into a guide such as those above.
This guide can be found here.. If you would rather see me do it first hand if you get stuck I recorded myself creating the Protoss interactive guide above in this video here (though I would recomend just reading the document first instead).
If anyone has trouble understanding any steps feel free to post here or contact me through TL or @SALT_sc2 and I will be glad to help them through it. As long as you can fill out the details in the spreadsheet I can take over from there if you need help as it only takes a few minutes from there.
Thank you and I look forward to hearing your feedback.
On April 07 2016 03:07 Ctone23 wrote: Can't wait to check this out, thanks! Will post back with feedback. Is this similar to SALT?
Thanks. It is running on an extension to SALT. So it is simillar in that the same features are still available (save/load/restart/etc) but it does away with the headache of setting up time and has other benefits (such as "ghost" buildings to let you know where to build structures like in the SC2 tutorials)
one bug: i tried the PvZ guide ("zealot immortal guide") on the America server and it started me off with 6 workers.
I really apreachiate the idea, sadly SC2 says: "the chosen map is not available to play."
Im playing on EU and was trying the PvZ guide
Sounds like bugs with the P guide. Not sure how that slipped through. I've fixed the NA version and will be uploading the fixed version to other servers over the next 10 minutes or so. Thanks for your patience
The EU version of the Protoss guide should now be fixed.
It was previously listed as private (the default setting for some reason) which means that it works fine for the person who created it but denies anyone else access. It is now uploaded as a public map so you should all be able to access it.
Great guide, I'll check it out when I get home. For your PvZ build though, isn't it more optimal to mix archons/ht into the army comp rather than solely zealots and immortals with the occasional disruptor?
On April 07 2016 07:55 t3tsubo wrote: Great guide, I'll check it out when I get home. For your PvZ build though, isn't it more optimal to mix archons/ht into the army comp rather than solely zealots and immortals with the occasional disruptor?
These guides weren't made by turtles, for discussing the strategy guides with their authors go to the relevant thread, for PvZ it's this one:
This is cool, but it completely forces you to stop for a few seconds at every step... That makes it unplayable for me. It's extremely annoying and breaks the flow. Without that I would be so into this.
This is cool, but it completely forces you to stop for a few seconds at every step...
This is so it can be ultra noob friendly. But I agree that it could get obnoxious when trying to play over and over. This is something that I could make an option for in the settings such that it turns off the screen pan and pause, or alternatively only has it on for the first time you try a build.
This is cool, but it completely forces you to stop for a few seconds at every step...
This is so it can be ultra noob friendly. But I agree that it could get obnoxious when trying to play over and over. This is something that I could make an option for in the settings such that it turns off the screen pan and pause, or alternatively only has it on for the first time you try a build.
on/off option would make more sense than being active only once (first time)
First of all - this is amazing, can't wait to try this out when I get home. Thank you for your work!
On April 07 2016 12:56 turtles wrote: This is so it can be ultra noob friendly. But I agree that it could get obnoxious when trying to play over and over. This is something that I could make an option for in the settings such that it turns off the screen pan and pause, or alternatively only has it on for the first time you try a build.
On April 07 2016 08:55 DuckloadBlackra wrote: This is cool, but it completely forces you to stop for a few seconds at every step... That makes it unplayable for me. It's extremely annoying and breaks the flow. Without that I would be so into this.
I haven't found out yet how this could be fixed. Alos sometime some steps aren't mentioned too. Unfortunately.
Tried the 1/1/1 and proxy reaper builds, was very interesting. Nice to have the audio cues.
Couple bugs - 1) In both builds, selecting "Restart" from the F10 menu at any point granted vision of the entire map. 2) On the proxy reaper build, the pause and pan didn't work to show where to send the SCV for the proxy. It paused, and the audio cue "Send an SCV here in preparation to build your barracks" played, but the camera didn't actually pan. In base pause/pan is more annoying than anything else, but knowing where the build expects you to put the proxy rax is very important for timing. 3) If you have buildings next in the BO and hit restart, the wireframes persist into the new game.
Possibly a bug, not entirely sure: Under SALT options, you have the ability to select a new BO, but it doesn't actually change anything. Not sure if you have the BOs hardcoded to the map (which would make sense, for the wireframe placement at least), or if you are supposed to be able to switch on the fly, but it doesn't work.
Questions/Feedback: 1) Do you record voiceover for each build, or is it performed by text-to-speech? 2) How difficult would it be to incorporate new BOs?
Overall, this is a really interesting project that can potentially have major benefits for players trying to learn. I would suggest (as others have posted above) a setting to enable/disable the pause & pan - this is useful for new players, but for experienced players learning a new build the audio cues and wireframes should be sufficient.
I would suggest placing a minimap ping for events not currently in view - see the proxy rax build. Rather than try (and fail) to pan all the way across the map, have an alert show on the minimap where the proxy should be built.
Great job, I really look forward to seeing where this goes.
I would like to see a kind of archive with lots of standard situations to train like TvP defending cannon rush or Zerg defending Hellbat Ghost all-in's.
This is such a fantastic idea in general to train responses whether for builds, defense, engagements or harass - I agree with propagare that it would be fantastic to have some kind of "attack planner" so that you could test your build out against a certain combination of units, or a "response timer" so that you could set a trigger to randomly go off and show you a piece of scouting info and time how quickly you could build a spore/spine and an overseer, and even set the precise locations the buildings should be built. I saw a youtube video you posted about your work on an SC2 AI turtles - do you think it could be adapted to this kind of scenario?
Very cool to have this option although I have been too lazy to actually create my own interactive build order yet. I'm surprised there isn't some kind of archive growing around this though, hopefully I'm not just feeding into the reason why in not creating them myself. Is there some kind of official repository for them? Have you asked the spawningtool people to feature it on their website or do you think the process needs to be more streamlined first?
Anyways too many questions, I just find this to be a really sweet concept. Nice!
For personal use it is easier to use spawning tool to rip a build order from a replay or use the inbuild editing tool (go menu->build orders->create build order). This method would just be a little extra you can do which would make a nice addition to a build order guide to help newbies out.
That was origionally the plan and I was discussing it with a group who were thinking of using it to create and release regular builds but that fell through. But since I had already created it I released it to the public.
There have been people experimenting with it. But like I said, if it is for your own benefit there are easier ways to use SALT.
The AI is on hold for the moment. Don't have time to complete it
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