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Community Feedback Update - March 31 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
192 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States677 Posts
March 31 2016 19:03 GMT
#21
Bring back Metalopolis for a season!
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-31 19:15:33
March 31 2016 19:13 GMT
#22
On April 01 2016 03:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
If Blizzard does in fact rotate out maps that prove to be extremely problematic asap that's pretty good, but they haven't ever done so in the past, so I'm not terribly hopeful.

Realistically no matter how good your map selection process is, if you select experimental maps there will be failures, so replacing bad maps mid-season is an absolute necessity.

Replacing maps mid-season is not the solution imo. What we need, what we badly need, is that tournaments not held by WCS rules about map-pool (though we don't know if these exist anymore, since we don't have a 2016 Handbook) start using non-ladder maps (and I mean no ladder maps AT ALL). That way good maps can be differenciated from bad maps, and all maps can be perfected and fixed. Remember that Habitation Station became the top-tier map that it is now considered to be because it got played in tournament, and Sidian fixed the map according to the feedback he got (sadly the feedback didn't make him change the name, eh).

-> It creates a healthy, competitive map-making scene
-> It allows for maps to be selected through widely seen experiences and not through judgement of select individuals
-> It allows pro-players to play an active part in the way the game is going through map lobbying [can you imagine that stuff? "Map endorsed by Liquid.Snute". That's what the scene needs, that's a way to connect the community and the pro scene more]
-> It allows tournaments organizers to differenciate their foreigner-only online tournament and generate additional interest in them
-> With such a system Blizzard has no excuse to pick bad maps/make their own maps
-> It encourages players to do intelligent training (map-dependent), instead of brainless ladder spam 24/24
-> It allows players and viewers to get involved and debate about the game in a way that is something else than balance/design whine

The notion that a top-down map-picking system, what we actually have, can be anything else than a mess seems absurd to me. Maps come from the people, and I wish the guys making ladder maps at Blizzard would be payed to do something else, something productive and positive for the game. For fuck's sake, the community is giving away tons of workhours for FREE with mapmaking. Why bother paying people to do what people are willing to do for free?
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
March 31 2016 19:15 GMT
#23
So please keep in mind Part 2 of this update is coming tomorrow... on April Fool's day....

GET READY FOR SOME HI-LARIOUS JOKES GUYS!
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
March 31 2016 19:16 GMT
#24
On April 01 2016 03:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 03:48 Hier wrote:
Where is this reticle article?

"Article"

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Can someone explain this to me?
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 31 2016 19:16 GMT
#25
On April 01 2016 04:03 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Glad to see this update, maps imba per matchup constantly vetoed out of tournaments until the very grand finals is a bad thing. (obviously)
Show nested quote +
Second, we don’t understand how having 4+ similar maps in the ladder or tournaments can be a good thing

Agree with the above. But it's important to emphasize that when people want more 'standard' maps, at least personally (I think examples are best to explain this):

We're not talking about close to no variety such as 4x Overgrowth or 4x Daybreak, it's more like ... King Sejong, Coda, Polar Night and Whirlwind - instead of Korhal Carnage/Secret Spring/Inferno Pools/Deadalus Point. Standard-ish maps can be very different and still have unique quirks and midfields, Polar Night and King Sejong are great examples of this.

Show nested quote +
While the HotS maps may have been “standard” in HotS, they have a big potential to create completely different types of games in LotV due to how much the game has changed. We’re very excited to see what types of games they create in LotV. Obviously, if an older map archetype does turn out to be super exciting, we can include maps like these as well on the ladder.

^ This is the best part of this community feedback update to me and I think this sets a very positive tone for the future


It all comes down to how you define a standard map which is very subjective. Daybreak is standard, Korhal Floating Island is non-standard, but there's a lot of ambiguity for every map in between. For example I'd consider Inferno Pool a standard map (just a very bad one). I don't think Blizzard and the community's definition of what a standard map is are quite in line.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 31 2016 19:18 GMT
#26
On April 01 2016 04:16 Seeker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 03:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:48 Hier wrote:
Where is this reticle article?

"Article"

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Can someone explain this to me?

Zerg rally point should be White, Move command Green, and Attack command Red, instead of the Green/Yellow/Orange it currently is
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
PressureSC2
Profile Joined January 2016
122 Posts
March 31 2016 19:19 GMT
#27
Thank you for this update Blizzard.

Looking forward to the Apr - eh... next balance update.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-31 19:24:22
March 31 2016 19:22 GMT
#28
On April 01 2016 04:13 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 03:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
If Blizzard does in fact rotate out maps that prove to be extremely problematic asap that's pretty good, but they haven't ever done so in the past, so I'm not terribly hopeful.

Realistically no matter how good your map selection process is, if you select experimental maps there will be failures, so replacing bad maps mid-season is an absolute necessity.

Replacing maps mid-season is not the solution imo. What we need, what we badly need, is that tournaments not held by WCS rules about map-pool (though we don't know if these exist anymore, since we don't have a 2016 Handbook) start using non-ladder maps (and I mean no ladder maps AT ALL). That way good maps can be differenciated from bad maps, and all maps can be perfected and fixed. Remember that Habitation Station became the top-tier map that it is now considered to be because it got played in tournament, and Sidian fixed the map according to the feedback he got (sadly the feedback didn't make him change the name, eh).

-> It creates a healthy, competitive map-making scene
-> It allows for maps to be selected through widely seen experiences and not through judgement of select individuals
-> It allows pro-players to play an active part in the way the game is going through map lobbying [can you imagine that stuff? "Map endorsed by Liquid.Snute". That's what the scene needs, that's a way to connect the community and the pro scene more]
-> It allows tournaments organizers to differenciate their foreigner-only online tournament and generate additional interest in them
-> With such a system Blizzard has no excuse to pick bad maps/make their own maps
-> It encourages players to do intelligent training (map-dependent), instead of brainless ladder spam 24/24
-> It allows players and viewers to get involved and debate about the game in a way that is something else than balance/design whine

The notion that a top-down map-picking system, what we actually have, can be anything else than a mess seems absurd to me. Maps come from the people, and I wish the guys making ladder maps at Blizzard would be payed to do something else, something productive and positive for the game. For fuck's sake, the community is giving away tons of workhours for FREE with mapmaking. Why bother paying people to do what people are willing to do for free?


Except the WCS rules about map-pools only say that the maps need to be ladder maps OR maps that Blizzard okays. I don't think a single tournament organizer (apart from the GSL) has even tried to have a non-ladder map in their map pool simply because so many players get the bulk of their practice from ladder and want to play on maps they are familiar with.

So the fact that tournaments use exclusively ladder map pools isn't really on Blizzard, it's on the map organizers and the players that reasonably enough like ladder maps in the tournaments they play in.
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
March 31 2016 19:22 GMT
#29
I think Blizzard is looking at the standard maps vs creative maps issue incorrectly. I believe that a stale meta generated by standard maps is not an issue with the map, but an issue with the balance. If more units and strategies become properly balanced, standard maps should be a breeding ground for creativity and variety of play because the maps suit all styles possible in the game. Creative maps actually kill options because they blatantly support one style per map, so while you are getting more playstyles overall, you are only getting one playstyle per map as well.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-31 19:29:37
March 31 2016 19:27 GMT
#30
If they really take out Korhal, that would be great news!

Edit: And I can't wait for part two .
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
March 31 2016 19:28 GMT
#31
On April 01 2016 04:16 Seeker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 03:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:48 Hier wrote:
Where is this reticle article?

"Article"

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Can someone explain this to me?


Well the colors for the zerg reticle aren't correct Attack move shoule be red, move command green etc.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
March 31 2016 19:31 GMT
#32
On April 01 2016 04:27 Musicus wrote:
If they really take out Korhal, that would be great news!

Edit: And I can't wait for part two .

Honestly, I'd be somewhat disappointed if they take it out just after I learned the sickest TvP strat for that map from TY
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 31 2016 19:31 GMT
#33
On April 01 2016 04:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 04:13 OtherWorld wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
If Blizzard does in fact rotate out maps that prove to be extremely problematic asap that's pretty good, but they haven't ever done so in the past, so I'm not terribly hopeful.

Realistically no matter how good your map selection process is, if you select experimental maps there will be failures, so replacing bad maps mid-season is an absolute necessity.

Replacing maps mid-season is not the solution imo. What we need, what we badly need, is that tournaments not held by WCS rules about map-pool (though we don't know if these exist anymore, since we don't have a 2016 Handbook) start using non-ladder maps (and I mean no ladder maps AT ALL). That way good maps can be differenciated from bad maps, and all maps can be perfected and fixed. Remember that Habitation Station became the top-tier map that it is now considered to be because it got played in tournament, and Sidian fixed the map according to the feedback he got (sadly the feedback didn't make him change the name, eh).

-> It creates a healthy, competitive map-making scene
-> It allows for maps to be selected through widely seen experiences and not through judgement of select individuals
-> It allows pro-players to play an active part in the way the game is going through map lobbying [can you imagine that stuff? "Map endorsed by Liquid.Snute". That's what the scene needs, that's a way to connect the community and the pro scene more]
-> It allows tournaments organizers to differenciate their foreigner-only online tournament and generate additional interest in them
-> With such a system Blizzard has no excuse to pick bad maps/make their own maps
-> It encourages players to do intelligent training (map-dependent), instead of brainless ladder spam 24/24
-> It allows players and viewers to get involved and debate about the game in a way that is something else than balance/design whine

The notion that a top-down map-picking system, what we actually have, can be anything else than a mess seems absurd to me. Maps come from the people, and I wish the guys making ladder maps at Blizzard would be payed to do something else, something productive and positive for the game. For fuck's sake, the community is giving away tons of workhours for FREE with mapmaking. Why bother paying people to do what people are willing to do for free?


Except the WCS rules about map-pools only say that the maps need to be ladder maps OR maps that Blizzard okays. I don't think a single tournament organizer (apart from the GSL) has even tried to have a non-ladder map pool simply because so many players get the bulk of their practice from ladder and want to play on maps they are familiar with.

So the fact that tournaments use exclusively ladder map pools isn't really on Blizzard.

Don't get me wrong ; I'm not accusing Blizzard here of anything else than being rather bad at choosing and making maps. I agree that the issue here is way more with tournament organizers (especially since WCS rules never said anything about tournaments not giving any WCS points) and pro players (who apparently are more interested in pointlessly complaining instead of acting about the map issue) than with Blizzard.

I think anyone should be conscious that SC2 getting better on the map issue will not be achieved through forum complaining and waiting for Blizzard to act intelligently, but through actively seeking to make maps better. The way to do that is what I described.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
March 31 2016 19:33 GMT
#34
On April 01 2016 04:28 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 04:16 Seeker wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:48 Hier wrote:
Where is this reticle article?

"Article"

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Can someone explain this to me?


Well the colors for the zerg reticle aren't correct Attack move shoule be red, move command green etc.


How long has this been going on for? As a Zerg player I've never once noticed this
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 31 2016 19:37 GMT
#35
On April 01 2016 04:33 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2016 04:28 Musicus wrote:
On April 01 2016 04:16 Seeker wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On April 01 2016 03:48 Hier wrote:
Where is this reticle article?

"Article"

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Can someone explain this to me?


Well the colors for the zerg reticle aren't correct Attack move shoule be red, move command green etc.


How long has this been going on for? As a Zerg player I've never once noticed this

As far as I remember the colors were correct in HotS, so I'd assume since the beginning of LotV
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Liquid`Snute
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Norway839 Posts
March 31 2016 19:39 GMT
#36
One could also allow players to choose the hue/colors/design of their reticles similarily to the idea of team colors reticle rewards similar to decals :D
Team Liquid
Noonius
Profile Joined April 2012
Estonia17413 Posts
March 31 2016 19:42 GMT
#37
On April 01 2016 03:46 Ansibled wrote:
Yay colours.

I hope they'll add Overgrowth or KSS to ladder.


Overgrowth? really? I think close to 2 years was enough
Terran forever | Maru hater forever
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3379 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-01 00:12:12
March 31 2016 19:51 GMT
#38
Tbh lets not remove Korhal, lets change it like we've done in the past. People could tell the map wouldn't work, before it was live and Blizzard should've known as well. Now we're here, so lets try and salvage the situation instead. Lets make changes to the map, it actually offers a really cool mid-late game dynamic. The rocks on the map is also different from what we've seen and adds to the map a whole lot more than I initially thought, though we gotta end the Zerg madness in the early game and let the other races expand to their natural.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
March 31 2016 19:52 GMT
#39
Are they ever actually going to patch a balance change?
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
March 31 2016 19:53 GMT
#40
Fix the liberator radius change. Can't see the circle.
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