EPTGSL Code S Round of 16 Groups - Page 6
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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SeriousLus
169 Posts
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munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On March 17 2016 14:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: It was. We see better gameplay in ro16 matches these days, which doesn't mean that it wasn't exciting to watch. Imo you mistake one for the other There's a difference between base mechanics and gameplay. There will always be power creep in terms of mechanics, simply because the game is being worked out more and more as time goes by. It's simply not fair to look back and say 'oh look, no one was micro-ing like Maru 2015 back in 2011' because that's obviously true; tricks get worked out, iterated and then incorporated into the standard skillset of a player. If you go back early enough, there was a time when things we'd regard as incredibly basic now were solely done by the elite. That's not very interesting to me. What is interesting though is the strategic layer beneath. It's probably true that if you drop anyone in Code S 2015/16 into the GSL Open Seasons, they would've won simply because of the progression of the scene as a whole (it would be a pretty shitty game if this didn't happen). But to watch jjakji vs Leenock, and to see the extent of jjakji's series planning, and the tactical moves he pulled off is to watch something that happens far, far too rarely now. You can criticise it mechanically perhaps (although frankly it's not that far below par), but strategically it was brilliant. What I care about isn't comparing Flash 2015 to jjakji 2011; it's comparing how good they were relative to the time they played in. For that season (and especially that final), jjakji was extraordinary. I don't think I'd quite extend that to Flash. Plus, this is all ignoring the fact that despite being criticised for being mediocre post-2011, jjakji's still got a top 6 in a Korean league in 2013. Flash doesn't | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 17 2016 14:29 Alarak89 wrote: Don't forget to name 15 Protoss and Zerg players as well, I am just curious since I didn't watch WoL games  IMO there are only three terran, two zerg and five protoss players considered "greatest" HotS players, the rest are not in the same level compared to my "top 10" list First row: The ones I would put clearly ahead. The second row some that I'd say had similar success to flash. DRG, Life, Nestea, Stephano, Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Solar, HyuN, Jaedong, Fruitdealer Leenock, Losira, Hydra, Nerchio, Curious, RorO, Sniper, viOlet Zest, sOs, PartinG, Classic, MC, Naniwa, HuK, herO, Rain, Dear, Seed, MaNa, HerO, Creator, Stardust, Trap And yes, as thecrazymunchkin said, it's about how strong those guys were for their time and also about their consistency and collected accomplishments. Players like Fruitdealer or Jjakji were incredible during their peaks (even Sniper, RorO or Seed). And yes, I'm heavily emphasizing solo leagues over teamleagues (don't forget that before proleague we had GSTL and it had its own ballers), simply due to the nature how you are matched against opponents. In solo leagues you have to win every match but one or two against opponents that had to qualify and then still get incrementally stronger, in teamleagues on the other hand it's Bo1's and you win some, you lose some against random opponents. You get fielded a lot if your coach wants you to, or you sit in the second row with the best stats if you are Zest but you have to win until you win a GSL title and the trainer realizes you should be the actual ace player. And yes, some of the results are old. It's our history and I'm glad I remember it because it was awesome. | ||
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Elentos
55593 Posts
Who the top 8 players of right now are, that's much more intriguing for me. | ||
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
On March 17 2016 20:06 Elentos wrote: Remind me again why this thread is completely about Flash now instead of the players in the Ro16 of Code S. I mean for the purposes of this thread, it really doesn't matter if Flash is in the top 30, 40 or 50 SC2 players of all time. Who the top 8 players of right now are, that's much more intriguing for me. I would be happy enough if my KT boys successfully come out from their groups, my JinAir boys tho, Cure in the group of death certainly wouldn't help him, and I'm not quite sure where Trap stands either But through this group selection I learn that herO and TaeJa are super evil | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9063 Posts
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Elentos
55593 Posts
On March 18 2016 00:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Do they have English VODs for the selection? I have a lot of downtime coming and I'm going to be insanely bored so I figured I'd watch it before the Ro16 started Twitch VOD Afreeca VOD VODs should be up within the next few days on Youtube aswell. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On March 17 2016 19:59 Big J wrote: First row: The ones I would put clearly ahead. The second row some that I'd say had similar success to flash. DRG, Life, Nestea, Stephano, Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Solar, HyuN, Jaedong, Fruitdealer Leenock, Losira, Hydra, Nerchio, Curious, RorO, Sniper, viOlet Zest, sOs, PartinG, Classic, MC, Naniwa, HuK, herO, Rain, Dear, Seed, MaNa, HerO, Creator, Stardust, Trap And yes, as thecrazymunchkin said, it's about how strong those guys were for their time and also about their consistency and collected accomplishments. Players like Fruitdealer or Jjakji were incredible during their peaks (even Sniper, RorO or Seed). And yes, I'm heavily emphasizing solo leagues over teamleagues (don't forget that before proleague we had GSTL and it had its own ballers), simply due to the nature how you are matched against opponents. In solo leagues you have to win every match but one or two against opponents that had to qualify and then still get incrementally stronger, in teamleagues on the other hand it's Bo1's and you win some, you lose some against random opponents. You get fielded a lot if your coach wants you to, or you sit in the second row with the best stats if you are Zest but you have to win until you win a GSL title and the trainer realizes you should be the actual ace player. And yes, some of the results are old. It's our history and I'm glad I remember it because it was awesome. Ahahaha Stephano? Naniwa? good joke. All they did was farming foreign tournaments. Having most wins in Proleague 2013 is more impressive then anything Stephano and Naniwa did. foreigner bias at its finest. even the IEM toronto win where he beat the undeniable best player in the world and the king of weekend tournaments is more impressive then anything stephano and naniwa did. Fruitdealer, Solar and Huk are also far less accomplished then flash | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 17 2016 18:19 thecrazymunchkin wrote: There's a difference between base mechanics and gameplay. There will always be power creep in terms of mechanics, simply because the game is being worked out more and more as time goes by. It's simply not fair to look back and say 'oh look, no one was micro-ing like Maru 2015 back in 2011' because that's obviously true; tricks get worked out, iterated and then incorporated into the standard skillset of a player. If you go back early enough, there was a time when things we'd regard as incredibly basic now were solely done by the elite. That's not very interesting to me. What is interesting though is the strategic layer beneath. It's probably true that if you drop anyone in Code S 2015/16 into the GSL Open Seasons, they would've won simply because of the progression of the scene as a whole (it would be a pretty shitty game if this didn't happen). But to watch jjakji vs Leenock, and to see the extent of jjakji's series planning, and the tactical moves he pulled off is to watch something that happens far, far too rarely now. You can criticise it mechanically perhaps (although frankly it's not that far below par), but strategically it was brilliant. What I care about isn't comparing Flash 2015 to jjakji 2011; it's comparing how good they were relative to the time they played in. For that season (and especially that final), jjakji was extraordinary. I don't think I'd quite extend that to Flash. Plus, this is all ignoring the fact that despite being criticised for being mediocre post-2011, jjakji's still got a top 6 in a Korean league in 2013. Flash doesn't Well sc2 is mainly about superior mechanics, strategy/tactics is only really important when both players are extremely close in mechanical skill. Which is why i think looking at the match and saying that it wasn't the same lvl of gameplay is fair (strategically that is arguable, i will give you that) My intent isn't to say that Flash would easily win the GSL in 2011 instead of Jjakji and therefore he is the 'greater player' in the context of sc2. I rather want to look at the time and value it's lvl of play and thus it's competetiveness as a whole. It simply wasn't all that great, the kespa switch wasn't done and the teams weren't nearly as professional. That absolutely means that being good back then was easier RELATIVE to being good right now. It's not even about total skill, it is trivial that atm the total skill is way higher. That's the reason i would never value a GSL win in 2011 as much as a GSL win in 2015. It's kinda ridiculous to say so imo (look at my Idra example for a very obvious reasoning if you don't see it in this post) If you look at it this way i simply cannot agree with putting Puma/Thorzain/etc at the same lvl as Flash in "greatness" in the context of sc2. I think it is ridiculous. On March 17 2016 19:59 Big J wrote: First row: The ones I would put clearly ahead. The second row some that I'd say had similar success to flash. DRG, Life, Nestea, Stephano, Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Solar, HyuN, Jaedong, Fruitdealer Leenock, Losira, Hydra, Nerchio, Curious, RorO, Sniper, viOlet Zest, sOs, PartinG, Classic, MC, Naniwa, HuK, herO, Rain, Dear, Seed, MaNa, HerO, Creator, Stardust, Trap And yes, as thecrazymunchkin said, it's about how strong those guys were for their time and also about their consistency and collected accomplishments. Players like Fruitdealer or Jjakji were incredible during their peaks (even Sniper, RorO or Seed). And yes, I'm heavily emphasizing solo leagues over teamleagues (don't forget that before proleague we had GSTL and it had its own ballers), simply due to the nature how you are matched against opponents. In solo leagues you have to win every match but one or two against opponents that had to qualify and then still get incrementally stronger, in teamleagues on the other hand it's Bo1's and you win some, you lose some against random opponents. You get fielded a lot if your coach wants you to, or you sit in the second row with the best stats if you are Zest but you have to win until you win a GSL title and the trainer realizes you should be the actual ace player. And yes, some of the results are old. It's our history and I'm glad I remember it because it was awesome. My explanation is above why i don't agree with this method all that much. Sure the players were great in their time, but that time wasn't nearly as competetive and if you disagree that completely you do it wrong imo. As i said before, that "Idra example" shows that pretty well imo. What did Flash do? Top 8 OSL, Top 4 MLG, 2nd MLG, some okayish results in GSL (top 12/16), 1st IEM, top 4 kespa cup, 2nd HSC, top 4 kespa cup and really good results in proleague (too lazy to look them up in detail right now) That was in a way harder time period than Jjakji's success for example. I think Flash's results are easily superior tbh. (jjakji played in a lot more tournaments overall, but that's about it) There are quite a lot of players in your list i simply cannot put above Flash in such a list, dunno. On March 17 2016 20:06 Elentos wrote: Remind me again why this thread is completely about Flash now instead of the players in the Ro16 of Code S. I mean for the purposes of this thread, it really doesn't matter if Flash is in the top 30, 40 or 50 SC2 players of all time. Who the top 8 players of right now are, that's much more intriguing for me. Because i really like to argue i guess -.- Sry | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On March 17 2016 19:59 Big J wrote: First row: The ones I would put clearly ahead. The second row some that I'd say had similar success to flash. DRG, Life, Nestea, Stephano, Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Solar, HyuN, Jaedong, Fruitdealer Leenock, Losira, Hydra, Nerchio, Curious, RorO, Sniper, viOlet Zest, sOs, PartinG, Classic, MC, Naniwa, HuK, herO, Rain, Dear, Seed, MaNa, HerO, Creator, Stardust, Trap And yes, as thecrazymunchkin said, it's about how strong those guys were for their time and also about their consistency and collected accomplishments. Players like Fruitdealer or Jjakji were incredible during their peaks (even Sniper, RorO or Seed). And yes, I'm heavily emphasizing solo leagues over teamleagues (don't forget that before proleague we had GSTL and it had its own ballers), simply due to the nature how you are matched against opponents. In solo leagues you have to win every match but one or two against opponents that had to qualify and then still get incrementally stronger, in teamleagues on the other hand it's Bo1's and you win some, you lose some against random opponents. You get fielded a lot if your coach wants you to, or you sit in the second row with the best stats if you are Zest but you have to win until you win a GSL title and the trainer realizes you should be the actual ace player. And yes, some of the results are old. It's our history and I'm glad I remember it because it was awesome. Ah, seems like a lot of players "died" at the end of WoL era or at the beginning of HotS Since I am a "strict" person, I cannot even pick a top 10 list for HotS era (3 years), here is my top 9 list, P: sOs, Zest, herO, Classic, Rain T: Maru, Innovation Z: Life, SoO The rest of the HotS players are not in the same level with these 9 guys | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On March 18 2016 01:10 Elentos wrote: Twitch VOD Afreeca VOD VODs should be up within the next few days on Youtube aswell. Thank you sooooo much! I could not see it at that time and for the last week, I am checking youtube every second day, but still nothing. The Twitch one works fine! | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On March 19 2016 01:33 reps)squishy wrote: I would like to say that WoL and HotS played very similar so the star players in tournaments always looked the same. With LotV the game is far more different. The players that are winning are not traditional established pro gamers like Maru, INnoVation, PartinG, Life, sOs, Classic, Rain and Soulkey. These players are probably A. Quicker to adapt. B. LotV is favoring their previous play styles. LotV certainly does not support Rain's playstyle. But I am sure, sOs will like it again. Look at his carrier style :-) He just needs more time to understand it and excel with unexpected solutions to the standard play. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On March 19 2016 01:40 Diabolique wrote: LotV certainly does not support Rain's playstyle. But I am sure, sOs will like it again. Look at his carrier style :-) He just needs more time to understand it and excel with unexpected solutions to the standard play. Exactly, both sOs and JA are getting better and better gradually. Maru is back to his shape, Rouge just won his first championship. I'm really looking forward to the 1st round final | ||
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