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Why do natural expansions exist? - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 11 2016 15:21 GMT
#101
On March 12 2016 00:14 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
Standard play is not a design, its an optimization solution. If there are right or wrong decisions, standard play becomes "found" with standard play normally equating to the builds that makes the bang for your buck. It is only a game where decisions don't matter that you don't find standard play.


Optimal design/balance makes sure that there are multiple viable choices each with their own disadvantages and advantages. If there is only one viable choice, why even have the players make the choice in the first place? Just let the AI handle stuff where there is no decisionmaking or interesting mechanics involved.


I think he implies that there can be various standard playstyles.
"standard play normally equating to the builds"
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 16:42:49
March 11 2016 16:32 GMT
#102
figuring out what's the standard play (most optimal) takes a lot of time and even then you can abuse this by cutting corners around that build - it's basically an arms race. The real problem is where you at the final metagame stage where no one can advance their strategy anymore. This is basically the patch time (see dota)

There is also this thing called "donkey space" where you'll better off playing sub-optimally as a response to a sub-optimal play, because in that particular case it will yield better results that a standard play would (see poker, rock-paper-scissors, any %choice based game)
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
March 11 2016 17:08 GMT
#103
On March 12 2016 01:32 etofok wrote:
figuring out what's the standard play (most optimal) takes a lot of time and even then you can abuse this by cutting corners around that build - it's basically an arms race. The real problem is where you at the final metagame stage where no one can advance their strategy anymore. This is basically the patch time (see dota)

There is also this thing called "donkey space" where you'll better off playing sub-optimally as a response to a sub-optimal play, because in that particular case it will yield better results that a standard play would (see poker, rock-paper-scissors, any %choice based game)

how does one play optimally/sub-optimally in rock-paper-scissors?
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
March 11 2016 17:12 GMT
#104
On March 12 2016 02:08 Schelim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2016 01:32 etofok wrote:
figuring out what's the standard play (most optimal) takes a lot of time and even then you can abuse this by cutting corners around that build - it's basically an arms race. The real problem is where you at the final metagame stage where no one can advance their strategy anymore. This is basically the patch time (see dota)

There is also this thing called "donkey space" where you'll better off playing sub-optimally as a response to a sub-optimal play, because in that particular case it will yield better results that a standard play would (see poker, rock-paper-scissors, any %choice based game)

how does one play sub-optimally in rock-paper-scissors?

Use the same one every time.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 11 2016 17:21 GMT
#105
On March 12 2016 02:12 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2016 02:08 Schelim wrote:
On March 12 2016 01:32 etofok wrote:
figuring out what's the standard play (most optimal) takes a lot of time and even then you can abuse this by cutting corners around that build - it's basically an arms race. The real problem is where you at the final metagame stage where no one can advance their strategy anymore. This is basically the patch time (see dota)

There is also this thing called "donkey space" where you'll better off playing sub-optimally as a response to a sub-optimal play, because in that particular case it will yield better results that a standard play would (see poker, rock-paper-scissors, any %choice based game)

how does one play sub-optimally in rock-paper-scissors?

Use the same one every time.

How is that sub-optimal? Assuming your opponent has no information of your strategy, the expected win-tie-loss ratio is as good as any other strategy, no?
Though it's not a Nash-equilibrium, that would be if both players play mixed strategies with 33-33-33, if I remember my game theory correctly.
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-11 17:32:55
March 11 2016 17:29 GMT
#106
how does one play optimally/sub-optimally in rock-paper-scissors?


"optimal" play in r-p-s is 33% each. But that's in theory, in practice you might encounter a player who favors a particular choice for no apparent reason, let's say - rock: playing Rock 100% is not an optimal play, since it autoloses to any paper player.

If I play Rock 100%, and you modify your strategy to playing 0% Scissors you will always win / draw (aka win), because your chance to lose is 0%. If you play 33/33/33 you have 33% chance to lose.
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
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