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If you are going to argue about racism in this thread, just don't. It is a pointless argument that merits no valuable discussion whatsoever. If people truly feel so strongly about it, then take it to PMs. Do not muck up this thread with racism arguments. |
On March 08 2016 02:07 kimaphan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 01:27 JeffKim wrote:On March 08 2016 01:19 kimaphan wrote:On March 08 2016 00:59 Silvana wrote:On March 08 2016 00:55 JeffKim wrote:On March 08 2016 00:51 lichter wrote:
I admire how Kim answers so calmly despite a lot of these posts. Not like she can answer any other way, if we're being honest. I don't see why she has reasons to react badly because I don't think we are being that bad at expressing our discontent with the interview (except the "omg foreigner welfare" shitposts which at this point we should all ignore). It's just that sometimes we can't make a post sound positive or friendly when the message we are trying to convey is "I am not satisfied with what you are doing". It would be helpful to know what you think we should do that would make everyone satisfied. Hi Kim, first off although I disagree with some of your responses and philosophies regarding e-sports in general, I have to give due respect for taking the time to connect with players/community members. I think SC2 really needs that, and I think it's something that it has lacked in the past, so please let the people at Blizzard know to definitely engage as much as they can as it is appreciated. Secondly I have a quick question: You said this above -- On March 08 2016 01:11 kimaphan wrote:
The Korean players who competed in WCS were not training, practicing, or playing on the same servers as the rest of the players in NA and EU.
...
We've introduced rules and ladder requirements, but they can be difficult to enforce and not enough to encourage all competitors to consistently play and train on the same servers. Yet here: http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-starcraft-ii-world-championship-seriesWe can observe the following: The WCS Korea Standings, open to all players globally, represent the most competitive StarCraft II tournament system, where the very best of the best players will go head to head. The vast majority of the league play in this system will take place in Korea, where the highest number of professional StarCraft II teams and players live, train, and compete. Any non-citizen player will be required to compete regularly on the local ladder, and will have other guidelines to fulfill. We’re working with our partners to encourage the development of skilled players all across the globe, through travel support, prizing, and by exposing players to international and local competition. Now, I'm ALL FOR equality opportunity, engaging with other regions than your own, etc., but do you think restricting access so that Player A from Region A should only be able to compete in Region A, Player B from Region B should only be able to compete in Region B, etc.? I see this both appropriate from an architectural standpoint as well as logical for the quelling of region differences as well as scheduled play quotas. Then, at the end, the top X from each region compete at a large tournament. Like other games that adapt this -- I'm sure you know it more than I do, as you have vast experience with tournament structuring. I think at some point, eligibility to compete regardless of "fair play" needs to have restrictions to prune and efficiently progress. What say you? Hi JeffKim, thanks for your support! I'm not sure I understand the question you're asking me. Like what was posted, would tighter restrictions at the cost of regional freedom (until the final stages, where multi-regional structure would take place and be implemented) not cancel out what you said about players complaining about server differences? It'd prune excess aspects, make the trivial stages more efficient, and boost interest in final stages with the motivation needed to keep participants active enough so quotas aren't an issue.
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I've learned a new english word to describe this speech : double talk.
Come on she doesn't really answer to any questions...
How can we trust Blizzard, if they all speak like politicians ?
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The quote that was put in the title is ridiculous.
Right, because we all thought you'd be doing what you thought was wrong for Starcraft.
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I have yet to see anyone explain how the old system was suddenly going to bring in thousands of fans.
The Korean domination is not working, in fact it has slowly and steadily driven viewers and sponsors away, so what is the point of keep giving Korean players pity money?
With the launch of Legacy of the Void we have one final chance at doing something, so why continue a system that is not working?
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On March 08 2016 02:00 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 00:34 kimaphan wrote:
To address the comments about Blizzard abandoning Korea and not caring about Korean players. We are still greatly supporting Korea and continue to invest significantly in GSL, SSL, and Proleague. They still exist today because of Blizzard's involvement and can still be enjoyed and appreciated by everyone.
The changes to WCS was to create a second system that can help support the rest of the regions and all of the players that don't have the same infrastructure as Korea. What is best for StarCraft does not mean what is only best for Korean players or only foreign players. It's trying to balance both.
The intention is not to have only one global event in the year but potentially others. We are still working on this with other partners.
Regarding the WCS 2012 system, it was changed because of the feedback from the community. Not only was it hard to follow, but people were not interested in watching it. The community as a whole was not watching or following all of the regional events. The interest was not there until the global finals.
The same happened with WCS as more and more Korean players who were not well-known entered the system. People were not interested in watching Korean players who had it easier or weren't the very best of the best (because the very best were competing in GSL/SSL). Foreign players also lost interest in competing and participation was dropping.
-Why didn't you learn from the French experience? All seems to point to the fact that progress in national scenes is first achieved through nationwide events (like Underdogs for the French scene), NOT through creating a false "top-level" for the players ie a huge tournament where players win 6K$ for winning one single Bo5 (do you realize that sum is 4 times the minimal salary in France? Jesus)? Why not invest money into national scenes instead of an artificial high-level tournament? Then those players could confront with Koreans at the traditional "open to all" events like DH or IEM, and their level of play would be better. -Assuming your new system is the good one, why name it "WORLD Championship Series"? Why WORLD if there's not Korea? Isn't Korea part of the world? Do you deny the legitimacy of Korean citizens to have the same rights as every other citizens? -Assuming your new system is the good one, what exactly is the reasoning behind the idea of giving 6K$ to Ro16 finishers and 0$ to the Ro32 finishers instead of, say, 4K5$ and 1K5$? Do you feel you are actually helping the scene when a player trains one month for a single Bo5 and comes back home with nothing?
I dunno about most of this but I would assume the RO32 didnt get anything because there was some invites? Would be pretty bs for people to get invited then not win a single game and get paid thousands for it.
Still a strange set up regardless.
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On March 08 2016 04:00 Oasx wrote:With the launch of Legacy of the Void we have one final chance at doing something, so why continue a system that is not working? The launch is not the end, let's have some more hope than that.
Games take YEARS to saturate mechanics into themselves. Look at Brood War's technical aspects and how mechanics evolved over time, along with play styles.
There are many ways Blizzard can capitalize on SC2's scene (as a business AND as a game company making a product more fulfilling), one of the main ones being micro-transactions and a better tournament system structurally.
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Kim Phan: "We are trying to make sure we are doing what’s best for StarCraft."
Sadly you have not done this once since the beta came out!
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IPL 5 is one of the strangest phenomenons in SC2. It was bemoaned as the greatest example of BL-Infestor being OP. But it was voted by TL members as their favorite tournament if 2012, and Korea v World is still remembered as one of thr greatest SC2 moments of all time (for good reason)
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Whoa, I leave my office, reopen my PC a couple of hours later and suddenly this :O
On March 08 2016 00:34 kimaphan wrote:
The changes to WCS was to create a second system that can help support the rest of the regions and all of the players that don't have the same infrastructure as Korea. What is best for StarCraft does not mean what is only best for Korean players or only foreign players. It's trying to balance both.
It was mentioned a couple of times in this thread: slight adjustments to the prize pool distribution would make a lot of sense in terms of supporting foreigners in WCS (in fact, I believe that making prize pools less top-heavy would make sense overall). When the first game in ro32 is all-or-nothing and advancing from ro32 to ro16 is worth more that ro16-ro8 or ro8-ro4, it just seems wrong and probably puts the players under a lot of unnecessary stress. You've probably heard similar feedback multiple times and I appreciate that you may not be authorized to disclose what exactly was discussed internally in terms of prize distribution, but I feel this may be the best opportunity to convey anything to anyone meaningful in Blizzard* so, well, I concur with all other critics of the distributon at WCS Winter.
* - because I may have missed that opportunity when I guess you were sitting right next to me in the auditorium in Katowice - I discussed the stream viewership with either you or somebody with a VIP ID really similar to you; I must've suffered a total face recognition failure at that time 
On March 08 2016 01:11 kimaphan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2016 17:17 AKAvg wrote:
I find interesting that she admits that Korea is the best is and wishes/hopes/prays that foreign players becomes as good as they are somehow/someway.
I truly believe you can't be among the best if you don't train and compete with the best and I hardly think shutting most Koreans out helps with that. A shame, really. This was inherently one of the problems with the WCS system last year. The Korean players who competed in WCS were not training, practicing, or playing on the same servers as the rest of the players in NA and EU. This was frustrating for foreign players and one of the biggest complaint that we heard from them during our player and influencer summit. We've introduced rules and ladder requirements, but they can be difficult to enforce and not enough to encourage all competitors to consistently play and train on the same servers.
Speaking of ladder, have you considered more ladder-oriented events? The WCS Winter Challenger - at least from my standpoint as a fan - was a success. I remember watching the last game on NA when qxc beat Polt and it was the first ladder game I remember that could be really called a nailbiter. Still, as some GMs (I recall Scarlett for example) pointed out, you don't really need a lot of time to climb to top16 - if you are a GM, you can grind it out within one-two days. Perhaps more ladder-oriented events would encourage more people to play the ladder on the same server on a more consistent basis?
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On March 07 2016 23:39 Clonester wrote:
I think it is not the fault of Kim Phan to only send out PR statements and "make Starcraft great again" slogans. Thats her job.
It is the interviewers fault to not ask harder questions or follow PR statements by specific questions to stop her from PR-bullshiting. The interviewer tried it, but failed hard to get her out of her pink PR speak.
In her defense, she really cannot say anything else.
In the interviewer’s defense, she would have said the same bs if the interviewer tried harder bc she is probably not allowed to say anything other than what we all know.
Meanwhile, koreans hate blizzard for feeling so left out and rightfully so considering the incident with blizzard employee telling people to play other games than sc.
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On March 08 2016 04:58 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2016 23:39 Clonester wrote:
I think it is not the fault of Kim Phan to only send out PR statements and "make Starcraft great again" slogans. Thats her job.
It is the interviewers fault to not ask harder questions or follow PR statements by specific questions to stop her from PR-bullshiting. The interviewer tried it, but failed hard to get her out of her pink PR speak. In her defense, she really cannot say anything else. In the interviewer’s defense, she would have said the same bs if the interviewer tried harder bc she is probably not allowed to say anything other than what we all know. Meanwhile, koreans hate blizzard for feeling so left out and rightfully so considering the incident with blizzard employee telling people to play other games than sc.
Did that really happen? Can I have a source please?
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On March 08 2016 02:39 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 02:30 showstealer1829 wrote:On March 08 2016 02:22 Diabolique wrote:
Well, Kim has guts :-) To face the beast, which is the TL community :-)
But it is good to know, she reads the ideas here. She does have guts and I appreciate the effort she's making. I still haven't seen an answer that's not PR Bullshit but I understand she might not be able to reveal things I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think she'll really take the time to give actual answers to what's being said in this thread.
I tend to agree while also hoping I'm wrong. I just feel like this is a half assed attempt at window dressing and PR spin to say "We're listening to your concerns" while all the while not addressing those concerns or even worse, dismissing it out of hand.
I would love to be wrong about this, maybe there is a great change coming that Kim couldn't discuss or talk about but to me personally as a fan. It would have been better off had she not come, because all I personally see is PR Bullshit and noone listening. Meanwhile the same problems remain.
Put it this way. I'm more pissed off now than I was after reading the interview
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Mostly seemed like lip service to me, everything is wondering to her. The wcs changes are awful, and I was open minded to start.
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So I guess Dreamhack Austin won't have Koreans then...kinda regretting buying the tickets and hotel room...
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On March 08 2016 05:34 Die4Ever wrote:
So I guess Dreamhack Austin won't have Koreans then...kinda regretting buying the tickets and hotel room...
Ouch...
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On March 08 2016 03:43 Tyrhanius wrote:
I've learned a new english word to describe this speech : double talk.
Come on she doesn't really answer to any questions...
How can we trust Blizzard, if they all speak like politicians ?
relative to other large developers Blizzard is not only more honest than all of their competition i would argue they are too honest... and they get crucified by haters for it.
overall Blizzard is an honest company. and that means you will sometimes hear things you don't want to hear.
On March 08 2016 04:58 swissman777 wrote:
Meanwhile, koreans hate blizzard for feeling so left out and rightfully so considering the incident with blizzard employee telling people to play other games than sc.
i agree with the sentiment. just try other RTS games and you will see they do not bring even 1/10th to the table what WC2, SC1, WC3 and SC2 offer.
Starcraft1 and 2 and CoH2 is all that is left.
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On March 08 2016 05:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 03:43 Tyrhanius wrote:
I've learned a new english word to describe this speech : double talk.
Come on she doesn't really answer to any questions...
How can we trust Blizzard, if they all speak like politicians ? relative to other large developers Blizzard is not only more honest than all of their competition i would argue they are too honest... and they get crucified by haters for it. overall Blizzard is an honest company. and that means you will sometimes hear things you don't want to hear. Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 04:58 swissman777 wrote:
Meanwhile, koreans hate blizzard for feeling so left out and rightfully so considering the incident with blizzard employee telling people to play other games than sc.
i agree with the sentiment. just try other RTS games and you will see they do not bring even 1/10th to the table what WC2, SC1, WC3 and SC2 offer. Starcraft1 and 2 and CoH2 is all that is left.
that's your own opinion, lol
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8748 Posts
On March 08 2016 02:14 Diabolique wrote:
But WHY CREATE 2 GSL and SSL per year with LOTS of money instead of 4 GSL and SSL per year with half the money???
The prizes are a fraction of the total cost of running those leagues. If you're suggesting that they reduce the prize per league in order to fund the production of twice as many leagues then I don't think there will be any prizes left. It's not enough to cover it. You'd have to figure out how to operate the leagues at much lower costs but that may result in an unacceptable drop in quality.
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8748 Posts
On March 08 2016 04:23 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 01:11 kimaphan wrote:On March 07 2016 17:17 AKAvg wrote:
I find interesting that she admits that Korea is the best is and wishes/hopes/prays that foreign players becomes as good as they are somehow/someway.
I truly believe you can't be among the best if you don't train and compete with the best and I hardly think shutting most Koreans out helps with that. A shame, really. This was inherently one of the problems with the WCS system last year. The Korean players who competed in WCS were not training, practicing, or playing on the same servers as the rest of the players in NA and EU. This was frustrating for foreign players and one of the biggest complaint that we heard from them during our player and influencer summit. We've introduced rules and ladder requirements, but they can be difficult to enforce and not enough to encourage all competitors to consistently play and train on the same servers. Speaking of ladder, have you considered more ladder-oriented events? The WCS Winter Challenger - at least from my standpoint as a fan - was a success. I remember watching the last game on NA when qxc beat Polt and it was the first ladder game I remember that could be really called a nailbiter. Still, as some GMs (I recall Scarlett for example) pointed out, you don't really need a lot of time to climb to top16 - if you are a GM, you can grind it out within one-two days. Perhaps more ladder-oriented events would encourage more people to play the ladder on the same server on a more consistent basis?
The ladder event seemed more like a miniature proof-of-concept than a significant implementation. For it to really make a difference, there ought to be a system where the current rankings are recorded at the end of each day and a player's ranking in the competition is determined by the sum of all their daily ranks divided by the number of days. To qualify would require being top 16 in the summed ranking over the recent months.
If the idea is to give players more opportunities for high quality practice, then it cannot be a five day period like it was, especially when only the rank at the end of the five days mattered. And it cannot even be something like a two to three week period, since that still amounts to only six to nine weeks of opportunity per year. If ladder rank started to matter immediately after a Championship and it mattered all the way until the next Championship's Challenger, then players could get sustained high-quality practice at a time that matters. And as the Championship gets closer, during the time between the Championship and its Challenger qualifier, players are no longer obligated to play so many games without anonymity and can privately prepare for the tournament. Any up-and-coming player would've had months of ladder games with the top players to network for practice partners for this dormant ladder period.
edit: Sorry for double post. I assumed someone else would have replied by the time I submitted this one, oops.
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Personally I think the 2015 system was perfect. It seemed like a good compromise between people wanting to see koreans and people wanting to see foreigners.
We had our foreign tournament where foreigner had a realistic chance to win and also collect a ton of prizemoney (1,5 k for a ro64 finish; for up and coming foreigners it was far better than the current system where only the top foreigners benefit from).
At the same time koreans had still the opportunity to travel all around the world to compete at foreign tournaments and interact with foreign fans.
If it's true that blizzard was forced to cancel the WCS tournament (it sounds like it) I can understand their decision but it's still a shame that koreans get denied any opportunity to interact with foreign fans and many koreans who relied on those foreign tournaments got forced into irrelevance or retirement.
It also sucks that there are only 2 seasons for GSL and SSL which means that once a player fails both qualifier he has nothing to play in for half a year but I guess this is not blizzards fault.
The least blizzard can do for the korean scene right now is to make more global events (at least 3 per year) so there will be at least SOME foreign tournaments they can play in.
Also I guess blizzcon ro16 will be a bit of a joke with koreans making a competition out of it who finishes his bo5 the fastest. I don't think 8 quick 3 - 0s will be good for the mentality of foreigners.
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EPT
